Marriage Is Sacred

[Miss Tessa]

I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union, and it entails honesty and I think if you CD you should disclose it.

Your kids don't need to know but your wives? Come on!

That's like as bad as cheating. It' Omission and it's lying.

I hear all these posts like, "How can I hide my pantyhose from my wife." Jesus. That is pure deception.


Imagine how your wife would feel.

I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

I know you're not real women like me so it's hard to think of it how SHE might feel, but I would rather him be honest and tell me he had a perversion (if she thinks of it that way) rather than being deceptive AND doing your thing too.

[Andrea's Lynne]

I have to agree.

But I also have a wonderful, loving, and accepting wife.

[Jess_cd32]

It's not as simplistic as that as so many SO's have a different view of CDing.
Some may research into it after finding out to gain knowledge of it, and others may just form an instant opinion that "your perverted, get away from me" attitude and just leave it at that.

I think most cd's feel out their partners feelings about it subtly and realize telling them won't be pretty most likely, but they want to. This is my third time using this phrase again lately and seems to apply often here, but ever heard of " being caught between a rock and a hard place", seems alot of us here are in that hard place.

I'd tell her in a minute if I thought she would listen and learn more about it.
She's going to have to deal with it soon anyways though as I do plan on telling her within the next few months. I actually joked w/ her today telling her I'm going to tie you down in a chair soon and we're going to discuss alot of different matters and your not going to change the subject or run off.
That's what some of us are dealing with w/ our SO's.

Not legally married here actually, but consider us married at this point, we also argue just like a married couple to

[LACD]

Tessa you're right about marriage being sacred. I hid my dressing from my wife for over thirty years. She knew I liked womens clothes, but had no idea to what extent I liked them. I was afraid she would leave so I dressed in secret whenever I had the chance. About 4 years ago we got the subject in the open and had many long talks about my dressing. Her greatest fear was and still is that I would leave her for another CD'er. I love her greatly and would not let my dressing some between us and our marriage. Now that she is fully aware of my dressing, she is very supportive of it. She helps me shop and has taught me many things to look for in clothes and lingerie. I enjoy my time dressed now more than ever. I am thankful things worked out the way they did. She told me in one of our early talks that if she would have known before we got married, she would have broke things off. I am glad we are together and she supports me in this. Sorry for the long post, but didn't know any other way to put it. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Katrina]

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. I was married to a woman who would not have been cool with anything related to CDing. Her man had to be manly and that was that. I was miserable, but I didn't do any CDing other than Halloween (which she helped me with). Glad she is my ex now. I couldn't be with someone who didn't accept it, nor would I expect a woman to be with me if it was something I hid from her. I'm a big fan of full disclosure.

[insearchofme]

Miss Tessa

Don't judge others until you'e walked a mile in their heels!

[yms]

OK. Soapbox time....

Marriage was never about being "sacred." Historically it was about economics and politics.

For example, do you know why, traditionally, the groom stands to the bride's right? Because in the old days, when women were kidnapped from the neighboring clan and forced into marriage to create political unions between clans, the groom needed to keep his sword arm free in case the bride's family tried to rescue her. The groomsmen were body guards.

Not so sacred. It was the catholic church that made it a sacrament and the catholic church has a way of screwing things up.

One only need look at the oppressive laws that existed that barred wives from owning property, laws that allowed husbands to beat their wives for certain offenses, to see that marriage was never thought of as sacred. Some of these property laws existed in the United States into the 20th century.

It is interesting to note that the word husband, other than meaning what it does in marriage, was first used as a verb meaning to tend to, to cultivate (husbandry), whereas the word wife originally referred to a woman "of humble rank or low employment, involved in the sale of some commodity." (from the OED).

Very sacred.

We place too much significance on marriage as an institution and not enough on the relationship itself. Most people who are married probably shouldn't be. Most people spend more time picking out the menu for their wedding party than they do picking a spouse. After all - "it's the biggest day of your life."

So once we get over this marriage thing, we are left discussing relationships. Relationships come in all sizes and shapes, and there is no one size fits all. All relationships have their limits and boundaries, what is acceptable for each person in that relationship to do and not do, and so on. Some relationships are better for secrecy, others suffer from it.

Whenever a crossdresser has asked me if he should tell his wife, my answer is always no, because it will more than likely end the relationship. Maybe not the next day, but eventually. It will certainly make life hell for them. That said, I told both my spouses before we married. One hated it, the second one embraced it (actually, she embraced me). Does that mean the odds for someone else are 50-50? I don't think so. But the bottom line is, no one can predict how someone else's wife/SO will respond.

[Katheryn]

T Her greatest fear was and still is that I would leave her for another CD'er.

My wife's fear was that I would have SRS/GRS and leave her for a man. Now, over a decade later, she realizes that won't happen. That didn't make the coming out discussion any easier, however.

The most important things to do with that discussion is:
Identify her fears and address them directly.
Point out that in most likelyhood, the things that she liked about you over other males stem directly from the things in your mental makeup that lead you to dress in the first place.

This past weekend we celebrated 30 years of marriage.

Kate

[Katheryn]

OK. Soapbox time....
We place too much significance on marriage as an institution and not enough on the relationship itself. Most people who are married probably shouldn't be. Most people spend more time picking out the menu for their wedding party than they do picking a spouse.

Okay, if you're done on the soapbox, mind if I borrow it?

We just got done here in Fla with an election that had a "Defense of Marriage" question.

sigh....

I think the marriage/divorce rate among our celebrities is far more an assault on marriage than two gay people "tying the knot". That being said, most of the electorate is frighteningly stupid and can be easily misled or are just so full of their own prejudices that these sorts of amendments have a really tough time getting passed.

That being said, according to studies I have read, most people are more accepting of homosexuality than they are of transgendered folks. (Don't yell at me, I didn't do the studies, merely saying I read them.)

Why is that? Well, my guess would be the first thing said about anyone is "It's a girl" or "It's a boy". (Why not "He's a boy" or "She's a girl"?) TG'd people mess with that, and by doing so violate the nice, neat bi-gendered picture most people have of the world. To them, gay people are at least staying within the bigendered picture of how the world "should be".

Okay, soapbox is open to anyone else.

Kate

[Kelly DeWinter]

I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union, and it entails honesty and I think if you CD you should disclose it.

Your kids don't need to know but your wives? Come on!

That's like as bad as cheating. It' Omission and it's lying.

I hear all these posts like, "How can I hide my pantyhose from my wife." Jesus. That is pure deception.


Imagine how your wife would feel.

I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

I know you're not real women like me so it's hard to think of it how SHE might feel, but I would rather him be honest and tell me he had a perversion (if she thinks of it that way) rather than being deceptive AND doing your thing too.

Tessa, i usualy don't respond directly to a post, but yours is obviously from a young person. The society we live in today makes it possible via the internet to make and have friends who accept you how you are, meet up with the same people, and yes possibly even find someone who at least accepts you warts, heels and all. There has been time and news enough that most people at least know WHAT a crossdresser,trangendered person means. We are slowly making our way into the public life. 10-15 years ago, it was inconciveable to hear about a TG person being seen in public, unless you ther story was about them being beaten to death . TG persons were relegated in public opinion to the same line as prostitutes and the mentaly unstable.

Yes a lot of people with 10-25 year marriages still hide,lie,are ashamed, dress,purge,dress,purge,dress,purge until the become depressed, because the stable career they have worked 15-20 years to build may crash, just because they forgot to remove fingernail polish before going to work (yes , that happend to one gal). Or becuase they were web surfing non pornagraphic TG web site during their lunch time (yes that happend to a gal as well). They conceal their actions because a H**L of a lot of people WILL NOT accept them for who they are.

The freedoms of expression that this generation of TG's, the younger generation enjoy today, are of a direct result of these wonderful gals who have RISKED everything they have to PAVE THE WAY for them to be able to walk more free in heels, have SRS if you choose, dress the way they woud want.
Married TG people have been told for years that what they DO,ACT,SAY is WRONG for so many years they HIDE things, they LIE to people they love, they live in FEAR and DREAD, that somone will find out.

I find not what you said offensive, but HOW you said it offensive. Nobody WANTS to lie to family,spouses or kids, but they struggle with how to express themselves WITHOUT having to lie.

This forum for the MOST part encourages them to find a SAFE and HONEST way to express these feelings.

From your post you think that it is easy to be out reguarding a male dressing or acting femimine, then I encourage you to spend a day with two or three average TG girls or at least learn more about the history of the people who you are critical of.

My apologies if YOU find MY post offensive, but I AM disgusted by the TONE of your post.

Oh and by the way, I'm not sure why you make statements like :
"I know you're not real women like me "
when in previous posts you say your a T-Girl. this is your post

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92228

TESSA you need to start by being honest yourself !!!!!!!!!

My sincere apologies to the rest of you girls.

I vacate the soapbox to the next gal in line ............

[TGMarla]

Thanks for the nice history lesson, Yvonne. I couldn't agree more. The relationship is very important. Marriage is something that is placed upon relationships that allow for legal ramifications and socio-religious acceptance.

I love my wife, and I'm glad she's my wife. She's a really good person, and I'm lucky to have her. But she is not overly accepting of crossdressing. Does that mean in your book that I should allow it to splinter our relationship? I think not. Clean your own house before you clean mine, please.

[Trinni]

I was thinking about this thread and some thoughts came to mind.

Would the secrecy be an issue if one person in a marriage went for ice cream everyday without telling the other. How about if they love to go bowling by them self because they enjoy it more or go to the driving range and does not tell the other. From there I thought what if them really enjoy watching foreign films alone. I'm not talking about porn which most would say that would be a problem because of the sex factor but just watching foreign films.

If these were not a problem but porn was because of the sex factor, what about the men who like to CD strictly from the love of the clothes but has not sexual feeling towards it. Some CD because it has a sexual feeling and some it does not.

Most people would think the ice cream thing has no barring on CDing but it is still a secret.

Where is the line drawn. Is sexual overtones the problem with the secret or is it something else. I guess I'm just playing devils advocate on this on but this is not a black and white subject, as I thought about it I saw a lot of shades of grey.

[fay]

[morgansrun]

absolutely marriage is scacred,does'nt matter what generation we live in, it is still a vow before God. And not telling the wife for years after is decietful, harmful and in doing so years later, she will never trust you again. Been there and have the Tshirt as well. She needs to know who she married as you knew who you married right? Well, hiding something like this which is part of YOU, who you are because you are scared is bs.......and extremely selfish and childish.......sorry but had a lot of feedback from wives over the years and it ranges from disgust, never trusting again, always waiting for another bomb to drop, down to accepting it in time and participating in shopping.........

[Miss Tessa]

I didn't mean any offense.

I was just a little curious.

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.

And marriage was not originally about politics and money.

God made marriage for Adam and Eve.That was what marriage was meant to be like.
It was Holy.


I have a child and his mother is not on bad terms with me by any means but I am not married and never plan to be.


Thank you all for the comments. Yes, I am young and never been legally married.I am young and the older ladies on the board who are married were raized up in a different time where things were done differently and people lived more conservative and different from the way people live in this modern times.... So I do not have an understanding from first hand experience.


I'm not trying to attack anyone, I am just curious.

[Magickman]

Firstly, I was never a believer in marriage, to begin with.

Other folks can do what pleases them.

But for me, marriage was much less sacred than just plain scary.

So I made it a point, not to seek, nor to accept, marriage.

That was long before my first skirt or high heels.

Perpetual singledom can be a bit lonely. The bachelor's bed is a cold repose.

But if the alternative frightens you to death, what then the road to follow?

***************************

I don't have to hide nothin' from nobody.

[MJ]

society's views of us and stereotyping. why not ask gg who are not here the ones who only know from the media and jerry springer they will tell you.
and then you can see why some of our S.O are so negative.

before my wife found out we were happy had 3 wonderful children a good home good church and life was fine.
then she finds out the man she loves , loves to wear womans clothing it hit her like an atom bomb . she never wanted to read the information or research this.
she after 21 years ask me to pack my bags and get the hell out and told everybody we knew including the church ...
i lost my wife my children my church. my friends. you tell me how would you feel. i understand why many can't tell i lost the one i truly loved .
the gg who accept us are saints to put up with us. but there are not too many like them.. i am all for being truthful but at what cost..what are you willing to lose and what will you gain.

[sandra-leigh]

I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

I find it disgusting that you judge people without knowing them or their circumstances. Relationships are not "one size fits all".

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.

Posts about religion belong in the Religious Discussion Forum. I cannot reply to those points (which form the core of your argument) as religious discussions are not permitted in the main forums.

[docrobbysherry]

Tessa, it's obvious from your post you've never been married. Kelly and Yvonne posted some valuable info based on life experiences.

Marriage is SO far from sacred! It's hard work, often painful, and the divorce rate doesn't come close to indicating how many couples stay in unhappy marriages for convenience, or "the children"!

Even the preacher who married us described the "tunnel of hell", he and his wife went thru after the "honeymoon" first few years of their marriage!

We just had an election in Cal. to decide if gays could marry. The election SHOULD have been about puting restrictions on ANYONE that WANTS TO MARRY!

U have to get license to drive, yet any two idiots can get married! There should be education classes required, and tests to be taken and passed, before people are allowed to marry. For most folks, it is the one event that will MOST effect their entire life!

And finally, Tessa, CDing is usually just the tip of the iceberg in marriages! If a couple has a great marriage, than CDing probably won't be a big deal. Maybe even make it more fun for them both! If they have a troubled marriage then, bringing home the wrong brand of coffee can cause a big problem. Never mind CDING!

Of course I've, been there, done that! My marriage break up had NOTHING to do with my CDing. We had REAL PROBLEMS!

[Kelly DeWinter]

I didn't mean any offense.

I was just a little curious.

You did offend, and have not apologived as an adult would in this situation.

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.


And marriage was not originally about politics and money.

The institution of marriage was, is, and will allways be about politics since in a divorce the basic items to decide are political (who gets the kids,dogs,friends, etc) and money (how will the assets be divided).

God made marriage for Adam and Eve.That was what marriage was meant to be like.
It was Holy.

God did not make Marriage, he made Eve for Adem as a helpmeet for Adam, and for the purpose of procreation (I'll get a lot of emails on this one), then the institution of a formal legaly binding marriage came later. much later, probably at the time the first lawyer put out his shingle.

I have a child and his mother is not on bad terms with me by any means but I am not married and never plan to be.

If you have a child (procreation) and are not on bad terms with the mother why did you not get married ? It sounds like you are Biblicly married if not legaly.

Thank you all for the comments. Yes, I am young and never been legally married( but Biblicly married).I am young and the older ladies

older ladies is patentley offisive most TG prefer gals,girls and such , but NOT OLD LADY

on the board who are married were raized up in a different time where things were done differently and people lived more conservative and different from the way people live in this modern times.... So I do not have an understanding from first hand experience.


I'm not trying to attack anyone, I am just curious.

you're post was not curious in tone, but a rant similar to the one i'm having over this.

I still think an appology is in order.

and yes I am in a bit of a mood today, mayby shoe shopping will help me ?

[Julogden]

Hi Tessa,

I'll certainly agree that a SO should be told early on in the relationship, but I'd argue about the "sacred" part, depending on how you're intending that term to be interpreted. I think you're using it to imply that marriage should be an absolute bond of trust between two people, and if that's what you mean, then I agree. I'm not at all in agreement with your statement about marriage being made by God for Adam and Eve.

And I'll agree with tess-leigh that relationships are not "one size fits all", so I can't say that hiding one's CD side from a spouse is 100% always the wrong thing, but I will agree that it's not the ideal way to behave, in general. Sometimes we have to play the hand we're dealt, not the one we wish we were dealt.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt as far as the tone of your posting goes, sounds like you were having a bad day and decided to post a rant here. You're apparently young, so I'll give you the advice I'd give one of my grown kids: when you're PO'ed about something, write down what you're angry about, say whatever you want to say, don't hold back, be as outrageous as you want, but write it on a piece of paper and put it away for a few days. Then, after you've calmed down, take the piece of paper out and read what you wrote, and if you still feel the same way, then maybe share it, but don't post stuff in a public forum when you're angry, it's just not a good idea, and I know from experience of what I speak. :-(

Carol

P.S. On re-reading your posting, I just noticed what you ended with: "I know you're not real women like me", that is a very low blow. You're a transexual woman, pre-op at that, and there are other TS women here. This sort of holier-than-thou attitude from some TS's has been a very real thorn in the side of the T-community for many years, and you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for going there.

[yms]

We just had an election in Cal. to decide if gays could marry. The election SHOULD have been about puting restrictions on ANYONE that WANTS TO MARRY!

U have to get license to drive, yet any two idiots can get married! There should be education classes required, and tests to be taken and passed, before people are allowed to marry. For most folks, it is the one event that will MOST effect their entire life!

!

Hear, hear!!!!

I've always said we have it backwards. If two people want to get married, they should each have to hire lawyers and argue in front of a judge why they should be allowed to do so.

But when they get divorced, they go down to City Hall, pay $25, sign a few papers and it's done.

And if they want to have kids - well!

[ElaineB]

Pardon me while my thoughts wander a bit. They will come back to one of the things mentioned here, I promise!

Up here in the great white north, gay marriage has been a *really* big issue the last few years (more so than in the US even).

The GLBT groups say that only allowing hetero marriage is discriminatory because there are real benefits attached. This is a good and obvious point. (The equally obvious argument against it is that opening up the definition also opens up the amount of benefits we have to pay out, but because of the details that really does not wash).

The anti crowd have a bunch of reasons, but one of the more common and interesting views was "I would be fine giving them all the rights if they just stopped calling it a marriage." I see their point ... the dynamics in a same-sex relationship must be somewhat different from a traditional hetero relationship ... but .. back to that in a second.

An even more interesting thing is that some of the noisier antis started shouting "if we allow gay marriage then we have to allow group marriages and bigamy." This is interesting because first, it exposes their bigotry for everyone to see, but also because of the weird twisted logic to it. In fact, pluralistic marriages are common in many cultures throughout the world including many of the first peoples in Canada ... the Cree and Inuit are just two fast and easy examples. So what are these people really saying? "We must deny gay marriage so we can keep repressing historical reality?" Somehow it looks less reasonable phrased that way.

Given that, the point about gay marriages being "different" from hetero marriage is just silly and irrelevant.

All that has made me think about how we define marriage in general and I find I somewhat agree with yms, although she seems to be talking mostly about western marriage. I think it would be good if government just got out of the marriage business entirely. Marriages really are ... when all is said and done ... just private contracts between individuals.

Just a tangential thought on a cloudy morning, so I can further avoid work I do not want to do for a bit longer.

[sandra-leigh]

And I'll agree with tess-leigh that relationships are not "one size fits all", so I can't say that hiding one's CD side from a spouse is 100% always the wrong thing, but I will agree that it's not the ideal way to behave, in general. Sometimes we have to play the hand we're dealt, not the one we wish we were dealt.

Hear! Hear!

I have Problems, my wife has Problems, some of my Problems cause significant trouble for her, some of her Problems cause significant trouble for me. Neither of us are perfect, and external circumstances have not exactly been all roses for us. We do what we can at the time, sometimes we yell at each other in frustration... and feel better for having vented, even if little actually changes.

In view of the things we've gone through together, I considered my early cross-dressing (it's only been about 4 years) to be personal, not something she had to know about. If I had turned out to be content with just underdress from time to time when she wasn't around, then it might have been some time before I ever told her. But I wasn't content with that: I wanted to be able to Go Out sometimes, and in particular I wanted to be able to go to our club monthly meetings.

It wasn't the cross-dressing itself that I considered important in the relationship: it was the lying about it that was really eating at me. "Working a little late" and slipping in to a club meeting for 10 or 20 minutes and taking a taxi took about the same time as "working a little late" and taking the bus, and I found all kinds of creative ways to imply I was doing something else. For example if I went shopping for girl clothes and stopped and looked at the shoes, I sometimes just said that "I stopped to look at shoes" and just omitted saying anything about the rest of the time. I hated the dishonesty about my actions; I didn't hate the fact that I hadn't told her I was a cross-dresser.

[sissystephanie]

I was amused to read some of the posts on this thread. As one of the more senior (in actual age!) members of this forum, I thought it was time to put my two cents in! That is based on actual life experiences gained over many years. Not from a book, off the internet, or what someone else said, but from my own life.

It would appear that many of you have no clue as to what "marriage" means. If that offends anyone I am sorry. But it does apply even to those who have been married and are now divorced, or on number 2 or 3 wife. Marriage is a Sacred obligation for a lifetime, and should be regarded as such. Someone said that "most people who are married shouldn't be." I don't think that "most" is the correct word in that statement. Many people should not be married, for many different reasons. If you are not willing to make the total committment that is necessary for a marriage to work, then you should not get married. Part of that committment is full and complete honesty between both parties. If you cannot, for whatever reason, do that you should not be married!!

The notion that our views of marriage should change because society has changed are ludicrous. Society has not changed in that regard, a segment of society has discarded moral values in favor of "what makes ME happy" values.

To not tell your wife about your CD activities is a total copout. But the time to tell her is BEFORE she becomes your wife. If you want to live with her for the rest of your lives, then you have to be totally honest about who and what you are. If she cannot, or will not, accept that you are a CD, then you need to find someone else.

I told my late wife before I proposed to her. She was not only accepting, but also said she would teach me a lot about being feminine. We had a very happy marriage for 49+ years before she passed away. I loved her very deeply, and still do! But if she had told me that she could not accept my CD'ing, I would have found someone else! I could not. and will not, live a life of deceit!

Sorry for the length of this post, I just got a little P.O.'ed.

Stephanie

Lady on the outside, but man underneath!