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Thread: Gender Diversity Equal Opportunity Employer

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    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Gender Diversity Equal Opportunity Employer

    following on from yet another thread runing on the rights of GG's to wear etc ........... the point was yet again brought up about threat to livelihoods and ..............

    SO THAT GOT ME THINKING

    there must be a huge number of peeps on here that have at least a minimal amount of say in who is employed (line managers, dept heads,HR peeps,as well as those with their own businesses), so whats to stop you adding

    [SIZE="6"]Gender Diversity Equal Opportunity Employer[/SIZE] to the job add, it may not be much but it will be a start, ....... future prospective employees that ask about that phrase at he interview, can get an extra tick for so doing, those as don't, you can always ask if they undersatnd what the term encompasses, if they don't, you have a chance to enlighten them, and explain that your workplace takes it as seriously as it's enforcement of disability rights etc.
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

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    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Good point.

    Some of us at least must be employers rather than employees.

    Should they not consider ensuring their employees at least are protected?

    Or what about a little Affirmative Action and specificly try to find TG employees?

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    Gold Member MJ's Avatar
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    sadly your talking to the converted here. it's the real world we have to worry about.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    MJ,
    that is the point, in the real world there are some who are able to state what goes in to the advertisment for an employee and they also have a say in the hiring of the said prospective employee ............. there are rules and regulations in Britian regarding employment of the disabled, you may not refuse employment on the grounds of gender, religion, and almost anything you can care to mention.(there are a few get out clauses on some employment jobs but very few)

    There are rules stating what you may/may not say in advertising for a position (some have limited get out clauses), e.g you cannot say people with diasabiliies will not be considered for said employment .. else you are going to have a heap of lawyers on your back, but you can state that said employment is not suitable fro X,Y,Z reasons legally.

    So those who have the where withall to to change things in the workplace can without actually outing themselves ........... heck they can say they were looking at proposed changes in the workplace under considerationa nad happened to notice that one
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

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    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    As much as I agree with you Sheila there is still one problem

    The diversity policy will not include Crossdressers it will include those who are transexual

    This is because generally by the public crossdressing is not seen as being transgendered

    Unless you have a good employer it might mean any CD having to prove they are transgendered
    Shelly

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    Yeah, there are an awful lot of people who are members of this forum alone. I have to assume at least ONE of us is a business owner or employer who could potentially add something like that to company policies.

    I am an equal opportunity employer, but I only employ myself at the moment. My small business is VERY small!

  7. #7
    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    Shelly, look at the thread again. It was in big pink letters! Sheila is suggesting that those of us who have the power ought to add [SIZE=6]Gender Diversity [/SIZE](i.e.crossdressing) to the list.
    That the point Katie

    Not everyone sees gender diversity including crossdressing

    We do because we are part of the community and understand better than most
    Yes we can add it to the policy if in a position too

    Unfortunately we still have to cope as best we can with policies which do help a lot but dont cover everyone
    Shelly

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    I think Sheila's point is that there has GOT to be SOMEONE out there who is a boss AND TG. And that THAT person would have the power to change that particular company.

    That those of us who ARE a part of the community and ALSO have the power to implement this sort of thing, should do so.

  9. #9
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Katie B and Violet thankyou, that is exactly what I was meaning.

    I don't mean that every CDR would want to or could go into work dressed, or even have it known that they are CDR's, just that the company has a policy that protects the right of those who wish to.
    Last edited by Sheila; 11-21-2008 at 02:30 PM.
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  10. #10
    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    Surely the policy should extend to the treatment of any CD'r in the workplace to prevent harrassment by any of their colleagues
    should it become known they are a crossdresser

    I dont think going to work dressed is a good idea unless you are living 24/7
    Shelly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly Preston View Post
    As much as I agree with you Sheila there is still one problem

    The diversity policy will not include Crossdressers it will include those who are transexual

    This is because generally by the public crossdressing is not seen as being transgendered

    Unless you have a good employer it might mean any CD having to prove they are transgendered
    Shelly you are correct. It is a minor problem if migrated into the transgender lable. For example where I work , we had a person brave enough to express his other gender side as a pre op transexual. In doing so brought up all new issues for a work place enviorment. This person choose not to use the mens restroom for obvious reasons,the women didn't want him in thier restroom for obvious reasons. It was a big "tado" the managers eventually found a way to fire this person for reasons unrelated to his dressing.

    It made the female manager upset and took time from doing her job to allow this person to use the restroom . she had to go into the Ladies room and make sure that no other women where in there to give the ok for this person to take care of business then the manager had to stand guard at the door the whole time during.

    If this was to be an accepted policy, companies would have to use a third bathroom to fit those who would be consider Unisex. Think about what that may open up next, hetros will complain that homosexuals use the unisex as well seems the lables are combined. The diverse policy is fitted well , if your are a legal male you need to obide to the company dress code.
    Last edited by curse within; 11-21-2008 at 02:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Shelly yes, you are right and I was not meaing that they should be excluded from the policy, I am sorry if it came across as that................ I just assumed it would be taken as read that the compny policy would cover every individual, rather than those who were just actively portaying their gender diversity wthin the work place ... sorry for the confusion
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  13. #13
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila View Post
    So those who have the where withall to to change things in the workplace can without actually outing themselves ........... heck they can say they were looking at proposed changes in the workplace under considerationa nad happened to notice that one
    Just say that a friend sent you a link to Barbera Walters discussing it, that you saw Obama added gender identity and expression to his rules and that you decided it was the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly Preston View Post
    That the point Katie

    Not everyone sees gender diversity including crossdressing

    We do because we are part of the community and understand better than most
    Yes we can add it to the policy if in a position too

    Unfortunately we still have to cope as best we can with policies which do help a lot but dont cover everyone
    You just have to state that all Gender Expression is covered. That protects everyone from effeminate gay men and metrosexuals to masculine women, crossdressers etc. It strengthens anti-sexism provisions as well as allowing crossdressing. You make clear that presentation must be neat etc but that people can combine any mix of apprael and appearance that was previously acceptable.

    If this was to be an accepted policy, companies would have to use a third bathroom to fit those who would be consider Unisex. Think about what that may open up next, hetros will complain that homosexuals use the unisex as well seems the lables are combined. The diverse policy is fitted well , if your are a legal male you need to obide to the company dress code.
    This is thoroughly bogus. There should be a disability-access toilet which they should be able to use during transition and if not the toilet ammenities at the workplace are already grieviously unjust and need imediate refurbishment for the use of wheelchair bound workers/customers.

    Segregation for race in ammenities was unjust despite whites being uncomfortable sharing toilets with blacks they had to overcome their discomfort and unfounded but prevalent rapist/cannibal fears.

    this is no different

    Men were uncomfortable working and studying with women. They got over it. Whites were uncomfortable working and studying and swimming and using the toilet and water fountains with non-whites. They got over it.

    Sorry but discomfort is something that they are just going to have to get over. To put their comfort over anothers right to work and use basic ammenities is disgusting, repugnant, reprehensible, outrageous and evil.

    Discomfort is no excuse for discrimination against TG people.
    And there is no excuse not to have disability access toilets.

  14. #14
    Member Laura_Stephens's Avatar
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    Diversity occurs naturally. Always hire the best person for the job. As a result, some employees end up being male, female, black, white, straight, gay, tall, short, liberal, conservative, TG, non-TG, etc.

    In the U.S., the managers of a business -- specifically, directors and officers -- have a legal responsibility to protect the interests of the stockholders and that means build profits.

    I see no need to hire specific demographics while foregoing hiring the "best person". Hiring the best person already results in diversity and moves the business ahead.

    When it comes to protecting employees from being treated poorly by other employees, I do believe that the business has a moral, if not legal, obligation to protect those employees.

    However, I do believe that customers have a major say so in who can perform in a customer facing function. The purpose of a business is to make money. the job does not include righting the wrongs of the world.

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    The Girl Next Door Sally24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly Preston View Post
    The diversity policy will not include Crossdressers it will include those who are transexual.
    Actually, many companies that include a "gender" phrase in their non-descrimination section include any kind of non-typical dressing. Surprisingly many problems arise when non-tg men and women don't conform to other people's gender stereotypes.

    In hearings this year on legislation in Massachusetts there were any number of women that testified in suport of the bill. Some were lawyers that were constantly being pressured by their supreriors to dress less manly. The same can arrise with men that do not project a macho type image in their movement and clothing. These people aren't neccessirly tg, but they are affected like we are by people's stereotypes.
    Sally

  16. #16
    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    Sally , While this maybe true in the US

    It's not true everywhere
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    Member Laura_Stephens's Avatar
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    Katie, yes you are correct in that is my opinion.

    What would have happened in the past? To be truthful, I have no idea.

    What I do know is that directors and officers have a fiduciary responsibility (i.e., a legal requirement) to maximize the wealth of the stockholders. Period. That is the job.

    It is my view that it is not the job of business to change the world. Business is merely a reflection of the current state of the world.

  18. #18
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly Preston View Post
    Sally , While this maybe true in the US
    It's not true everywhere
    Nor will it ever be Shelly, if we are not proactive in seeking to make suggestions that can bring about change.

    I know if gender diversity in in inluded on company policies it will enable those who wish to present as themselves an easier passage to doing so ...... and that is a choice each individual must make for themselves

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens View Post
    Diversity occurs naturally. Always hire the best person for the job. As a result, some employees end up being male, female, black, white, straight, gay, tall, short, liberal, conservative, TG, non-TG, etc.
    and the same can be said for diversity being stifled because ....... even given that 2 peeps are equally appropriate for the job, in general a man will be offered it over a woman, a white over a black, an able bodied over a disabled ............ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens View Post
    I see no need to hire specific demographics while foregoing hiring the "best person". Hiring the best person already results in diversity and moves the business ahead.
    I am in no way suggesting that TGs are hired in a specific demographic way, just that ensuring that they are not afraid to apply for a job just because they "may be uncovered"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens View Post
    The purpose of a business is to make money..... the job does not include righting the wrongs of the world.
    for most business the purpose is to make a profit I agree ...... but making a profit should not in my view be exlusive of moral obligations .... surely both can work side by side .... and I fail to see how including a Gender Diversity Clause within a company would be righting the wrongs of the world ..... unless of course ensuring employees rights are to be ignored for the profit margin, in that case I would not want to work for that company, nor buy from them
    Last edited by Sheila; 11-22-2008 at 01:25 PM.
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

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    am here Hali's Avatar
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    What a useful thread

    This is the kind of thread we are suppose to be discussin about cos they'll definitely help the CD community. Like i always say its not easy for us CDs to accept ourselves or other CDs it'll not be easy for the society to accept us, never the less we (CDs) are part of that 'variety' cos we are different, i think thats enough for the society to make arrangements for our existance.

  20. #20
    Semi Sane innocent angel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly Preston View Post
    As much as I agree with you Sheila there is still one problem

    The diversity policy will not include Crossdressers it will include those who are transexual

    This is because generally by the public crossdressing is not seen as being transgendered

    Unless you have a good employer it might mean any CD having to prove they are transgendered
    Well depends on were you are. In the area that is covered by the 9th circuit you might be able to stretch that. During the 90's a lesbian sued because she was harnessed because she dressed butch. She sued and won. Gender expression could be used for CD's
    Business is the the art of extracting money from another mans wallet with out resorting to violence

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    In todays world you can go to work dressed enfemme,,depends where you work.. Most fortune 500 companies have dress code policys that fall under the set code of conduct. Thats something you aknowledge before you agree to work for them and you get refreshed on yearly.
    All companies that contract work through and for the Goverment have to have diverse policys, rules that the Goverment enforces.. Under these rules are guidlines that protect both the company and you and are structured in a way that favors the means of the business.. So if you choose to work in makeup ,blouse or have your nails painted chances are they fit into the code of conduct and little or nothing will be done to you.. But if you come in as a male wearing a skirt ,heels and wig... and your work enviorment allows this dress code You can be sent home and warned to never come dressed that
    way again or loose your job.. Why?...because the U.S. Goverment does not see crossdressing as a diverse issue.. If you are born a male going through the sex change stages you can come to work dressed that way Skirt,heels and wig because the U.S. Goverment does see transexuals as a diverse issue..

  22. #22
    They call me quiet girl.. Sarah...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violet View Post
    I think Sheila's point is that there has GOT to be SOMEONE out there who is a boss AND TG. And that THAT person would have the power to change that particular company.

    That those of us who ARE a part of the community and ALSO have the power to implement this sort of thing, should do so.
    Yes. I am a boss and a TG. Half in - half out that old closet there. But nothing stopping my SO and I adding such a clause to our policy. My only grumble? Having reached a certain threshold in number of employees I now have to have policies left, right and centre. One of the reasons I left employment to be self-employed!! Oh well, if I can help push the cause then policies it must be!

    Sarah...

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    The Girl Next Door Sally24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens View Post
    Diversity occurs naturally. Always hire the best person for the job..
    It would be nice if the real world really worked this way.

    I do believe that customers have a major say so in who can perform in a customer facing function. The job does not include righting the wrongs of the world.
    Nor does it require it to pander to the bigoted.



    What I do know is that directors and officers have a fiduciary responsibility (i.e., a legal requirement) to maximize the wealth of the stockholders. Period..
    Sorry but that's not strictly true. The "health" of the corporation and it's future continuance are not only measured in dollars and cents. If they tried merely to maximize the stock price and dividends they would also be remiss in their responsiblities to the owners. Image in this world of instant information is as important as your monthly sales figures.

    It is my view that it is not the job of business to change the world. Business is merely a reflection of the current state of the world.
    It's sad that so many people beleive this. As an artificial person, in the view of the law, a corporation should also have a moral structure to it. Many family businesses feel it is important to not only treat their employees fairly, but also to have their company behave as they would as individuals. The corporations that treat people badly in the short run, will run into problems in the long run with retaining good people.

    Hopefully the laws, both federal and state, will eventually change to protect us so that we don't have to depend on the vagarities of the corporate world.
    Sally

  24. #24
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Stephens View Post
    Diversity occurs naturally. Always hire the best person for the job. As a result, some employees end up being male, female, black, white, straight, gay, tall, short, liberal, conservative, TG, non-TG, etc.

    In the U.S., the managers of a business -- specifically, directors and officers -- have a legal responsibility to protect the interests of the stockholders and that means build profits.

    I see no need to hire specific demographics while foregoing hiring the "best person". Hiring the best person already results in diversity and moves the business ahead.

    When it comes to protecting employees from being treated poorly by other employees, I do believe that the business has a moral, if not legal, obligation to protect those employees.

    However, I do believe that customers have a major say so in who can perform in a customer facing function. The purpose of a business is to make money. the job does not include righting the wrongs of the world.
    So thats why 50% of CEO's are women then... oh but they aren't. Even when studies have shown that companies with women in equally high positions as men do better they are nevertheless not hired so.

    Same with all minorities.

    So the result is people across the economy are NOT hired by virtue of ability. Resulting in the best or equally good person for the job often not getting the job.

    As such affirmative action policies would result in bypassing bigotry in the system and allowing the comapny to pick from an overlooked crop of superior employees! Because if 50% of the top people are not getting the positions they are due that means you have a better chance of getting a better emplyee by hiring the most qualified person from an undersourced minority group!

    So affirmative action makes economic sense.

    And as TGs are a very undersourced group that makes them a really great resource underutilised.

  25. #25
    Member Laura_Stephens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally24 View Post
    It would be nice if the real world really worked this way.


    Nor does it require it to pander to the bigoted.




    Sorry but that's not strictly true. The "health" of the corporation and it's future continuance are not only measured in dollars and cents. If they tried merely to maximize the stock price and dividends they would also be remiss in their responsiblities to the owners. Image in this world of instant information is as important as your monthly sales figures.


    It's sad that so many people beleive this. As an artificial person, in the view of the law, a corporation should also have a moral structure to it. Many family businesses feel it is important to not only treat their employees fairly, but also to have their company behave as they would as individuals. The corporations that treat people badly in the short run, will run into problems in the long run with retaining good people.

    Hopefully the laws, both federal and state, will eventually change to protect us so that we don't have to depend on the vagarities of the corporate world.
    1) It sure would, but the average person -- including those who work in HR are VERY stupid.

    2) giving customers what they want is not pandering.

    3) Sorry -- you are 100% wrong. Please read the text of U.S. law and SEC regulations regarding corporate governance.

    4) A business is NOT an artificial person. Business exists solely to meet the needs of customers and to make a profit. Please read "A Treatise Into The Cause Of The Wealth Of Nations" published in 1776 by Adam Smith.

    I am the CEO of a very well known public company as well as being VERY tg. The business I run has one -- and only one -- responsibility: make as much money as possible for the stockholders.

    As I already said, diversity occurs naturally unless the people at the top are stupid and put the wrong people in charge of HR.

    Our corporate charter has no mention whatsoever of helping the world.

    My rule is "hire the best". From there, we take care of every employee who takes care of the business -- pretty simple. I don't allow employees to be bullied for who they are or what they think.

    In 1999, I had a "rank and file" male employee come to me and ask if they could wear a dress to work. I said that the company wouldn't have a problem with it, but that we couldn't do anything about those who don't work for the company -- bus drivers, people who work in adjacent buildings, restaurant workers in our area, etc. I left the decision up to the employee.

    My job is to make as much money for the stockholders as is humanly possible. My job is NOT to save the world from itself -- PERIOD.

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