What Kind of Cis-Man (non-CD) do you pretend to be?

[Sheila]

This statement by Batty

Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.

So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore.

Promted me to make this statemnet

Batty sorry but to me you are displaying locally outwardly as goth, not necessarily transgendered, so it does not follw that you are not in the closet still as cis gendered

Perhaps that will help clear a few things up

So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore. My most male presentation is still Transgender even though i have only come out formally as a crossdresser to family and friends and all the people who were at the local Womens Comedy Festival or who may have seen me walking to and from my Goth friends place.

I am sorry Batty but to the general public at large you would still be viewed as Cisgendered, as goth butstill cisgendered

[Nicki B]

I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c:

Many of us have been reared as 'solidly male' - after a while, that gets to feel somewhat of a pretence, so I get where Batty is coming from?

But we all fulfill 'roles' - parent, worker, family member - that carry expectations of how we should behave? The question is, does that sometimes feel like a pretence?

See La Golightly's post...

[Pink Person]

Dear Batty, if you keep asking important questions and responding to criticisms in a very reasonable and well informed manner then I am going to have to declare you to be the most interesting person on this site. Please do not make me do it. Thank You.

[Katrina]

Batty, I understood your question when I read the heading...so...

I used to be an outwardly homophobic, follow-the-crowd, heterosexual, "macho" guy in high school. In college I continued that, but without the homophobic as I had some friends who I suspected were homosexual and I had grown to like them. I didn't have any point of reference in high school as NOBODY had come out and we were in a small, rednecky town.

During and after college, I was a weightlifter and was quite proud of my muscle building, so from that standpoint, I was still on the macho side, but much more accepting of various lifestyles. Since my divorce from my ex, who was fairly intolerant, I have lightened up quite a bit. I will now defend just about any type of diversity to friends, family, co-workers, or people I have just met. I'm not macho at all now, more laid-back than anything. I'm doing much less pretending now. The only pretending I'm doing is that being a guy isn't tearing me up inside.

[Juliet Simone]

Well, having been asked that question in an accusing and condemning tone I hesitate to answer. When not en femme, I am a outdoorsy, wayfaring tough guy who swears like a midshipsman.
However, I sit on a continuum, and the closer I get to knowing, loving and being Juliet, the less tough, angry and testosterone fueled I get. Really, I feel like a lesbian in a mans body, thanks to crossdressing (and coming out), my temperament is improving.
I think one thing that is wrong with male culture today and one that contributes to misogyny and sexism is that men aren't properly feminized. That includes all men, especially the type who start wars, bully others and generally cause testosterone fueled oppression of others. We are the highly socially evolved ones, in touch with our inner femininity, which informs our male side about how to treat people.
Juliet

[Carly D.]

I think I am of the Carly mindset all the time.. I don't think of myself as girly in my mindset but rather a little less edgy, less likely to be of the male mindset such as it is (you know, screw you I get to pee wherever I want, the world is my toilet) and that is the very essence of male(ness) to me.. or something like that, anyway I am less that way when I am myself.. when I'm with others (family) I am the odd one.. my brothers always comment about the way I see things isn't the same as theirs or anyone else for that matter.. I have a somewhat twisted sense of humor and vision on everything..

[battybattybats]

I am sorry Batty but to the general public at large you would still be viewed as Cisgendered, as goth butstill cisgendered

There's not a lot of male goths with long red nails and red lipstick Sheila, (some but not many) especially not in a rural town. And all the people at the Womens Comedy Festival where I was totally crossdressed who knew me i'm out to, and the several hundred who didn't will too, i was still recognisably me (even in the dark as someone I knew came and sat by me saying Hi (Birth-name)! ) and while lots told me I looked good (including the comedians backstage who were very supportive) I did not pass.

Isn't the measure of the general public at large the views of the general public at large that i meet, not what you imagine they will be? So when a girl at a checkout where I'm buying beadcraft supplies starts talking to me about high-heel black knee-high womens boots she bought on ebay and reccomending them to me then she's just viewing me as a Cisgender male? And what about the people who see me carefully select and try on knee-high high heel womens boots?
And you forget that Androgyny and Genderqueer/Genderfree are also Transgender! And Goth Adrogyny remains Androgyny.

I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c:

If someone is knowingly in the closet (someone totally repressed could not be considered so) then they are acting as if they were not-a-cd when they are-a-cd. They are pretending they are not a cd and thus avoid others awareness that they are (and discrimination for being) a cd.

I'm not judging them for it. And i'm certainly not saying anyone is pretending to be a woman by crossdressing. Many here are clearly women, Transsexual women are still women. And a Bi-gender crossdresser could well be considered both a man and a women no atter which state they were born into. Same goes for the 1 in 60 or more here who will be Intersex largely without being aware of it.

I speak only about those who are closetted, those who are pretending they are not CDs but Cis to the outside world when they are in fact CDs and not Cis. For whatever reason they choose to do so.

[StevieTV]

I"m expressive, talkative, creative and egotistical. I'm the typical Leo male.

[MissConstrued]

There's not a lot of male goths with long red nails and red lipstick Sheila, (some but not many) especially not in a rural town. And all the people at the Womens Comedy Festival where I was totally crossdressed who knew me i'm out to, and the several hundred who didn't will too, i was still recognisably me (even in the dark as someone I knew came and sat by me saying Hi (Birth-name)! ) and while lots told me I looked good (including the comedians backstage who were very supportive) I did not pass.

Isn't the measure of the general public at large the views of the general public at large that i meet, not what you imagine they will be? So when a girl at a checkout where I'm buying beadcraft supplies starts talking to me about high-heel black knee-high womens boots she bought on ebay and reccomending them to me then she's just viewing me as a Cisgender male? And what about the people who see me carefully select and try on knee-high high heel womens boots?
And you forget that Androgyny and Genderqueer/Genderfree are also Transgender! And Goth Adrogyny remains Androgyny.

Methinks you protest a bit much. I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth. No one I know -- and I know all kinds of people -- would consider that transgendered at all. You might. They don't. It's a goth dude.

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

[Toni_Lynn]

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

And THAT is exactly to my point about the danger of the use of labels to compartmentalise everyone and everything and every action.

The beautiful thing about life is that none of us fall in neat categories that are black or white. All things are shades of grey, even more so when those categories overlap. When one is categorised, one is forced by that categorisation to adhere to a defacto standard. Life, thank heavens, isn't really like that.

Some people it would seem require these categories, however, as validation of self. It is not outside of human nature to want to belong. This isn't bad, but as with everything, to much of this, or too fine a stratification, destroys and brings about greater division.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[battybattybats]

Methinks you protest a bit much.

Lol.

I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth.

Theres lots of subsets of Goths, and certainly i'm far too oldschool to be remotely typical but thats beside the point, more importantly I have passed when less feminine than that! Indeed the more feminine I dress the less often I'm seen as female lol. The times when in public I've been thought to be a girl I've been in guy clothes and no makeup :D

But most importantly, the pics are from last year and I mentioned in my post straight after the link that my male expression is now much more feminine!

I said:

Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.

The typical 'male goth' is more effeminate than the typical 'male-non-goth' simply because... drum roll... Goth is more accepting of gender diversity. And Androgyny and diverse gender expression is... drum roll... transgender! And believe me the acceptance Goths have now was hard-won.

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

I know lots of American Goths, from Cyber/Industrial-Goth body builders to effeminate Steampunks to genderqueer/FtM Emo's. And Goths as a group are one of the most gentle and peaceful subcultures ever. And every Goth I've come out to has been 100% supportive and accepting of Gender variance and sexuality.

As for the value of terms... they have been needed to define the sources of other groups problems. Internalised Racism was an important discovery as to many of the issues facing many racial minorities. Same things were learned by exploring Internalised Mysogyny. Its essentially the same thing occurring to different groups of people under similar conditions.

And terms like cissexual and cissgender allow us to reexamine things in a way that takes away the norm-compared-to-other bias of our Internalised Transphobia.

[Sheila]

As for the value of terms... they have been needed to define the sources of other groups problems. Internalised Racism was an important discovery as to many of the issues facing many racial minorities. Same things were learned by exploring [SIZE="3"]Internalised Mysogyny[/SIZE]. Its essentially the same thing occurring to different groups of people under similar conditions.

And terms like cissexual and cissgender allow us to reexamine things in a way that takes away the norm-compared-to-other bias of our Internalised Transphobia.

Batty care to explain Internalised Mysogyny in relation to this thread ?

Misogyny ........ (IPA [mɪˈsɒdʒɪni]) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, "hatred") and gynē (γυνή, "woman")

A definition if cissexual and cissgender can be found here [SIZE="3"]cissexual and cissgender[/SIZE] for those interested :D

[battybattybats]

Batty care to explain Internalised Mysogyny in relation to this thread ?

Sure since you asked nicely.

In short, it's an example (like the racism one) of a group that by understanding the way it had absorbed the negative views about themselves they harmed themselves and by rejecting those ideas have been overcoming them.

The womens movement was wracked with internal strife for many decades. There was the womens counter-petition to stop women getting the vote in Australia for example. Or the ousting of Lesbians from several key womens-rights organisations in the 60's and 70's. The blaming of rape on women victims by other women assuming they provoked the men who committed the crime is another example. Only by challenging the ideas that women were weak and irrational and overly emotional and incompetant in work and by laying the blame for rape etc solely on the perpetrator and not the victim were women able to make the gains they have.

It relates to this thread not just on the importance of understanding these terms and their value but also because if closeted CDs as they live in public life as cisgender men contribute to social transphobia as a way of being seen to be less likely transgender or if they express their internalised transphobia they then contribute to the transphobia that impacts the next generation and reinforce that in others currently.

While if CDs act as the Cis-Men that we would like real Cis-Men to be, accepting, supportive, defending others then at least we are not harming our community but strengtheningit even if we remain in the closet.

Edit: Oh and Sheila, the blog Questioning Transphbia which you've linked to in the past (on the angie Zapata discussion) has had a couple of articles on Cis lately a bit more in-depth than wiki (and as usual much of the interesting stuff comes out in the long comments disciussions) http://questioningtransphobia.wordpr...academic-term/ http://questioningtransphobia.wordpr...9/04/30/cis-2/

[LilSissyStevie]

At home I'm a radical Austro-libertarian banjo playing hillbilly redneck farmer. I wear a big black cowboy hat and drive a 1 ton 4WD truck. I raise pigs, cattle and chickens. I have hundreds of fruit trees and a big vegetable garden. I own guns and ammo for every size varmint, including the two legged kind. (My hero: The sometimes crossdressing farmer John Peterson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0egeHh1_Sb4 )

At my day job I'm the smart and witty but slightly effeminate analytical chemist whose eccentricities are explained away as a side effect of high intelligence and a tragic childhood.

In my bedroom and my mind I'm a petticoated sissy.

Actually, I'm all of the above all of the time. It's all the real me. I just choose to express myself differently depending on the situation (doesn't everybody?)

In any case, I am an outspoken defender of the rights of the individual, including the right of people to hate us as long as they do not attempt to impose their will by force. In that case, they may have to talk to Mr. Mossberg.

[Pink Person]

Males who self-identify as primarily masculine and behave in a primarily masculine manner are cisgender. Females who self-identify as primarily feminine and behave in a primarily feminine manner are cisgender. A very odd pissing contest is occurring in this thread. A person who self-identifies as transgender and behaves in ways that many objective observers would consider as transgender is challenged on both points. I don’t understand the personal criticism. Is everyone fair game for this type of external and subjective analysis? Perhaps there is a mod who has a rational opinion on this subject?

No one is an expert on the private lives of other people. We all experience everything in subjective and specific ways and should be careful about how we objectify and generalize these experiences. I’m sure my opinion of some of the other people on this site would be withering and likely unfair to a few of them. Shall I share these opinions with everyone in carefree abandon?

I believe the point of this thread was that many of the members of this site do not behave privately in ways that are commonly considered cisgender. These same people frequently do engage in public behaviors that are cisgender. The first post in the thread asked people to describe their personal level of public cisgender activity (among other things). I don’t think this thread was an invitation to invalidate each other. If you are all cisgender all the time, congratulations. You deserve a special place in the diversity parade, as everyone knows. There is no need to lead the procession by marching backwards and organizing the ranks behind you.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Methinks you protest a bit much. I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth. No one I know -- and I know all kinds of people -- would consider that transgendered at all. You might. They don't. It's a goth dude.

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

Me thinks thou vastly lack understanding of Goths, and the definition of "transgender."

[BarbiB]

I try and be neutral. And I need to be private. I relate as well to ultraconservatives as much as the liberal crowd. We all have the right to be and act as we care. My biggest problem comes when someone from either side attempts to publicly criticize or show up the other. Most of all, I try not to hear or say anything negative about any choice someone else makes. And there is no pretension about it here. "That's how I roll"...

[sometimes_miss]

Having spent much of my childhood labeled as a sissy, as an adult I try very hard to present as a standard issue guy, and I'm guessing most of us closet dwellers probably do the same thing.

[Nicki B]

Most of all, I try not to hear or say anything negative about any choice someone else makes.

Doncha think that's what Batty is really asking - how do we deal with bigotted views, when we're in male mode?

And how can we be prepared to stand up for diversity, rather than hiding, without necessarily outing ourselves?

I find you need to have a few things pre-prepared - it's very hard to come up with stuff off the top of your head, in stressful moments?

[KateC]

This thread is so damn confusing I'm not sure why I am even responding.

And why doesn't anyone read my posts or respond to them if I reply, makes me feel what's the point of responding sometimes...

Anyway, hope that got someone's attention...

I am a CD, maybe a mild version of TS, but I don't display a half-gendered version of me if that's what you're asking.

If I am to go out(If I ever do again) I display myself either fully dressed as a woman, or as a guy. I don't know if that's "lying" or "pretending" to be not a CD when in guy mode, but I still enjoy many aspects of being a guy. I don't merge them together really? I'm not super macho or anything but I don't act like a princess in guy mode. Is this the answer you're looking for?

[Nicki B]

And why doesn't anyone read my posts or respond to them if I reply, makes me feel what's the point of responding sometimes...

Looking back over your previous posts, that's certainly not always true - but perhaps your style is sometimes to make 'statements' which don't always seem to require answers?

If I am to go out(If I ever do again) I display myself either fully dressed as a woman, or as a guy. I don't know if that's "lying" or "pretending" to be not a CD when in guy mode, but I still enjoy many aspects of being a guy. I don't merge them together really? I'm not super macho or anything but I don't act like a princess in guy mode. Is this the answer you're looking for?

I think Batty's also asking if, and how, your attitudes change when in boy mode and how you display them?