Is this all just a fantasy?

[curiousrabbit]

You can still care for someone even if you decide to get a divorce and move on with your lives. You can still be friends and be happy for eachother. The only thing, is making that move BEFORE you stress the entire sittuation to a point where you simply hate the other person (which happens as you drag things out with lies after lies, or broken promises *kinda like the OP's promise for only panties and bra's*).

The kids? There are a lot of arrangements that you can do. Having one home is probably the best (the entire "live somewhere different every 6 months" isn't such a great thing). So, one parent takes the kids and the other parent still plays an active role in their lives. When you don't hate your husband or wife and get sick at just looking at him/her, it becomes a lot easier to do things like that.

Like many things, marriage and relationships with another person are not binary systems. There are many different ways of working things out where *gasp* people can be happy.

[abigailf]

Why is the simple answer "divorce"?... I don't get Americans... easy come easy go, everything is a commodity... get real! When was
life ever like that? And where the hell do kids fit in? Oh, maybe they don't!

To the OP... watch Inception... where is your fantasy and where is your reality?

Kaz, please don't stereo type. All Americans are not that way. I happen to think marriage is sacred and all other avenues should be pursued before the big D.

--

My parents and grandparents were married until death parted them. You better believe they had moments when things got difficult and wanted to give up. But they didn't. They sucked it up and hung in there for better and for worse, sickness and in health.

Getting a divorce for the kids sake is an excuse and a poor one at that. The only time in my mind I find that an adequate excuse is if living together creates a violent or hostile environment for the children. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but let's be real. We all make decisions we must live with - marriage is one of them.

[docrobbysherry]

1. Your "marriage" is over. Whether or not u continue to live together is the question! I got on BETTER with my ex after we separated! And our kids were HAPPIER, too!

2. Your couples therapist sounds bogus! Mine said dressing in private was no issue and took it off our discussion agenda in 15 minutes!

3. Your wife has NO LEGAL RITE to take your kids away from u! If your CDing in private is mentioned in court, most judges consider it irrelevant! Unless u excersize your "fantasies" while you're still together and u get CAUGHT!

4. I struggled with dressing, gay, bi, and TS issues for 10 years. I worked thru the gay, bi, TS issues. But then, after coming out online here 3+ years ago, I continued to try and figure out what I am and where I'm going as a CD.

And, I've been dealing with all that with NO ONE AROUND to limit my actions/desires! If I was living with a non-accepting spouse, I would still be where u r!

I don't think anyone can tell u what u will want or what you'll do, given the opportunity! U just need TO GET OUT THERE AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF! Hopefully, your kids, family, and friends will hang in there with u!

Sounds like your present therapist can help u find some CD direction. Now, go see a good divorce attorney and find out what your legal options r! Then, make an informed decision!
I wish u ALL THE BEST! Keep in touch with us! U can tell WE CARE!

[fluffy]

Well why don't you just tell her exactly what you told us here? It sounds to me like open communication is totally missing in your relationship.

What you're doing here is what I've seen time and time again. You're setting yourself up for being dumped in the most cold hearted way even though that is exactly what you're trying to avoid. She is setting up boundaries for you (who even gave her that much authority over your life???) and making you feel appreciative for her being so 'generous' since she'd rather you didn't do any crossdressing at all. I wonder how you felt if you'd forbid her to wear skirts and then 'agreed on some boundaries'?

And from what it sounds like to me, you might not even be a hardcore crossdresser. You're just longing for a forbidden fruit right now. So if she had the kindness to care about you and your relationship, she'd at least give you the opportunity to find out for both of you. For all you know, it's not that great to go out en femme and your problems are solved.

Doesn't anyone see how one-sided these things always are? If you go to so much trouble to accommodate her small-minded needs as far as your dress-style is concerned, it should be HER who is grateful that she has such a great partner who would do that for her.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: If we come crawling to our partners, begging for a few crumbs of acceptance (for something that is totally harmless), then we have no right to complain that so few women are accepting. We've made our own bed so to speak. As long as most men refuse to stand up for themselves and their basic human rights in their own home, that's how long this gynocentric dating world will continue to suppress men's needs and desires and treat them from an angle of pathology. Even in vanilla relationships I see the same tendency.

Oh, and btw, giving in all the time does NOT secure a relationship. That's another big myth that most guys buy into. Just because you're doing everything to accommodate her, does not mean she'll repay you with loyalty or respect.

I know this is harsh but I feel us CD's need a little more of a talking to. We've become so used to meeting on anonymous forums feeling sorry for each other or ourselves and giving each other sympathy-pats. It feels nice but doesn't help make things better.

[laceyjessica]

Thank you so much for all of your opinions I really am trying to take all of this in, my mind is going in about 100 different directions. I think my wife see's me hurting and that may be the reason she keeps asking me if I would just be happier on my own. She says that maybe doing my thing (crossdressing ...she doesnt like to label it) and having the freedom to do what I want whenever I want would make me happier and I guess I am just trying to figure it out in my mind if it would. The pro's for the most part are just selfish desires and the cons are life. You all have great points I could never live with myself If while married if I cheated on my spouse, but strangely enough because of no intimacy in my relationship I wouldnt blame her if she cheated,I know that sounds twisted but even though I may be painted into a corner I beleive she is too. I tried to approach her abou me trying and going out as Jessica and that is when she cut me off and made sure I wasnt planning on crossing her boundaries

[TGMarla]

The boundaries thing seems a bit harsh. Bra and panties only? Heck, that's only the foundation for me, and I'd not be happy with it. However, I keep it away from my wife, and I think we both like it better that way. However, remember the historical story of Pyrrus, the great Persian general, who won his battle but did so at the expense of his entire force. From this we get the term "Pyrric victory". Were to to chuck you marriage and your family just so you could have more freedom to dress as a woman, you'd likely find over time that it would be a very empty and hollow victory.

Find your foundation for your love, build upon that, and then find your options for dressing. Otherwise, you're only moving towards misery.

[Shelly Preston]

I may be wrong but you both need to sit down with a counselor who understands transgender issues


She seems to be offering you more freedom at the cost of losing her and the kids

At the same time the boundaries are reducing your opportunities and controlling your level of dressing

I get the impression you would be happier if you had the time to dress maybe once a month and this would make you more relaxed and less stressed which in turn may make her happier ( if you were given the time then most likely you would be able to attend family outings)

Also you wife need to decides if she really wants you to stay together at the moment it seems to be a constant battle

Good luck with whatever you decide to do

[NicoleScott]

Jessica, I wasn't trying to be negative (see my post #3 and your reply #4), but it raises an important point. You said that your wife and therapist agreed to boundaries, but where was your input and agreement of those boundaries. Who represented your interest? I assumed you had agreed.
My first wife insistied that we got to counseling. So I agreed. We had individual and combined sessions. The problem was that we never discussed (much less agreed) on what our objectives were. As it turned out, my wife wanted me cured, and I wanted her to accept my cd-ing, and I think the counsellors (husband/wife team) just wanted to get paid, because we never seemed to be getting closer to anything. Of course, we weren't. At our final session, the counsellors recommended that we split. Unresolvable differences. Eventually, we divorced.
Single again, I was free to pursue whatever crossdressing was to be for me. As it turned out, I am a part time dresser who enjoys being a rather nornal guy who likes to occasionally dress up for pleasure. But that's me, and at least I was able to reach that determination without boundaries or expectations of others.
So my point is to urge you to be honest with yourself and not agree to anything you can't live with. Also, if you and your wife cannot agree on a counselling objective, get your own therapist who works for your interest. If you continue with one therapist, make sure your interests are included.
Sadly, but realistically, there are women who cannot accept a crossdressing husband.
There's a lot of good advice in the other responses. Many of us have been in similar situations before. I wish you the best.

[Sarah Doepner]

Jessica, I'll jump in too. Marriage is a formal relationship that should give equal weight to the union of the two and their off-spring first. To achieve that each partner has to have equal say in things. It sounds like you aren't being asked for your opinion and when it does come out and doesn't match your wife's it is discounted or twisted. There is a lack of two-way communication there. Is this common in the rest of your marriage? Finances? Kids? Vacations? Movies? Think about it and if you can communicate about other things, there is hope in expanding it here, otherwise you may be up for some increasingly difficult times.

With the boundaries set by your wife and 'her' counselor you've been underdressing, but not really crossdressing. How can your wife assume anything about how crossdressing will make you more or less happy if she doesn't understand or won't accept what your needs may be. It could be that having an occasional chance to fully present yourself, even alone, in female mode will be all you really need, but until you have that chance it's all conjecture. It may be that you would benefit from dressing and going out on a regular basis, but right now you don't know because it's not available. It may be you need to explore your sexuality, but again while you don't know if that's the case or not, it seems that your wife is making that assumption based on a lack of understanding.

Good luck

[Gaby2]

Oh dear! Here's me jumping on the bandwagon too, feeling for you, your wife and your kids. The members' support shown for you is fantastic.

I have always believed that I divorced my wife because I loved her and I still do love her very much.

My marital relationship was strikingly similar to yours, Jessica. Especially the meanness.
Life has been much harder after finally managing to move out, but better.

The greatest sacrifice and my biggest fear was not being able to live with my children anymore - but they've coped best of all - I had underestimated their love for me.
My wife and I remain on very good terms and she only wants the best for me though she hates not being married to me anymore.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you
Gaby

ps you dress beautifully

[Loni]

sorry to here you have these problems.
it is time to lawyer-up, get to a counselor, and find a support group in you area.
you will need a lawyer as some legal things are coming your way, the counselor as you need some guidance, and a support group for the support.

find out if she is willing to have a separation for a time, as both of you need to find out were each of you stands. staying together just for the kids is a bad deal for ALL, even the kids.

no matter what happens both of you are going to get bloody, and loose out if things go badly. so as much as you can try to keep your side on the up and up. tape every thing, every word. keep all papers and letters etc.

if both you and your wife want to do good and help the kid's both of you must keep this civil.

it does not matter what next year or ten years from now. things are going to be tough on all of you.
does she have a stable job? your job? money in the bank? housing? medical? cars? this is why the lawyer.

by the way i am about your size and just a bit older, i just look like a man in a dress but working on it. i do have a support group and this does help. find a couple close enough to get to (mine is 80 miles from here) get to there events and find your real self.

good luck in life

Loni

.

[laceyjessica]

Thanks Nicole i Know you werent trying to be negative and to answer your question they did ask me and the oly way I could answer with a brand new marraige house kids family ife was ok I would try, but the bottom line is my wife wanted me cured, just by what my wife says I just dont think she could accept her husband as a crossdresser, and she has basically told me that
Thanks Sara, my wife does ask my opinion but then before I can answer inserts the answers she wants to hear, and also that is why in our last discussion I brought up the possibility of me going out totally dressed out of town to see what it was all about, but that when she stopped me and said but how could you do that without crossing the boundaries that she is comfortable with, and I get it, i put the shoe on the other foot and I would probably be the same way especially if I didnt sign up for it. So I kind of know where she is coming from
Hi Gaby I agree everyone is great thats why I love this forum, boy our situations sound very similiar, I too would still love her if we divorced, I would hope she would find her 100% man, I really want her to be happy too. Tell me now that you are divorced do you dress more, go out as Gaby, enjoy the freedom of crossdressing and being yourself?
Loni thansk for the advice I hear what you mean there is alot to consider especially with everything we built together to imagine that gone, we have friends that have divorced and it isnt pretty. We fight now about finances imagine having two separate households wow.
Thanks Shelly I do think you right about offering my freedom but in a weak moment I almost beleive she hats to see me so down about life and thinks maybe if I was free to persue what it is I think i want maybe I would be happy and that would make her happy, but I just cant help to think that only exists in a perfect world, once the dust settles and everyone gets involved I know I would be outed and at that point even though it would be hard I would have to accept it.
Thanks Marla, great story I feel in my heart that is what I would be doing and I just dont know if the end result would be me living as I would like dressing and going out as Jessica or would I be in the closet and lonely and still just dress at home.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Jessica,

You DID agree to the limits by not saying "I WILL NOT TAKE THESE LIMITS".

Believe me I know what you are going there. I have been there. Our kids were grown and out of our house. I agreed to pay 60% of my income to stop the fight and the hell. Be sure this will make you happy. When the worm gets out of the bottle you will not be able to get it back in the bottle. No going back.

Em

[DebsUK]

There seem to be trust issues on both sides so, as someone else suggested, seeing a relationship counsellor with TG experience might be a good idea, and working through the problems with give and take on BOTH sides. The last therapist seems not to have had your interests at heart, setting boundaries with your wife about your behaviour without much compromise from her, from what you're saying. 14 years is a long time to have invested in the relationship, let alone the children, so it has got to be worth fighting for and not throwing away on what you worry might only be a fantasy. Take care, both of you x

[laceyjessica]

Thank you all for your help I got alot of great information and you all are a great bunch of girls

[Michael]

...
Doesn't anyone see how one-sided these things always are? If you go to so much trouble to accommodate her small-minded needs as far as your dress-style is concerned, it should be HER who is grateful that she has such a great partner who would do that for her.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: If we come crawling to our partners, begging for a few crumbs of acceptance (for something that is totally harmless), then we have no right to complain that so few women are accepting. We've made our own bed so to speak. As long as most men refuse to stand up for themselves and their basic human rights in their own home, that's how long this gynocentric dating world will continue to suppress men's needs and desires and treat them from an angle of pathology. Even in vanilla relationships I see the same tendency.

Oh, and btw, giving in all the time does NOT secure a relationship. That's another big myth that most guys buy into. Just because you're doing everything to accommodate her, does not mean she'll repay you with loyalty or respect.

I know this is harsh but I feel us CD's need a little more of a talking to. We've become so used to meeting on anonymous forums feeling sorry for each other or ourselves and giving each other sympathy-pats. It feels nice but doesn't help make things better.

Thank you, Fluffy, I am so glad to finally hear someone on here who voices a feeling similar to mine.

Most of us I think are sensitive, we are so used to being afraid, and frankly we are perhaps too meek sometimes with regards to our lives and how we interact with others and in relationships.

Your crossdressing and feminine leanings are you. It's what you are. It is impossible to have a real relationship or to even have mutual acceptance with someone who is not willing to accept you, anymore than they would be willing to tolerate you not accepting them as a whole.

[Sharon B.]

Thats one off the problems I have with television and movies a person can't be straight and enjoy dressing as a woman, we are always gay not that there is nothing wrong with being gay.
There is a lot of men who enjoy dressing as a woman and being in a stable relationship with a woman.
Just don't put us altogether in one pile and we all are gay because we dress as a woman. That's like saying one race kills more than another race does.

[Jay Cee]

... She says things like when I asked her what she wanted for Christmas this year her comment was a massage at a salon and a real man to be with for an evening following that up with because I dont want to be with her. I sometimes think we both would be so much happier apart but it tears me up inside that the kids will be sad. But then again that would only be temporary I suppose if we werent together fighting all the time they may enjoy it as well...

This paragraph tells much - the "real man" comment is nothing but hurtful. And if you two are fighting all the time... that's not good for anyone, especially the kids. I'm not advocating a separation (only you two can make that decision), but it certainly looks like a viable option.,

Good luck, Jessica.

[Gaby2]

Hi Gaby I agree everyone is great thats why I love this forum, boy our situations sound very similiar, I too would still love her if we divorced, I would hope she would find her 100% man, I really want her to be happy too. Tell me now that you are divorced do you dress more, go out as Gaby, enjoy the freedom of crossdressing and being yourself?.

And thank you Jessica!

Divorce as a realistic option had occured to me after only six years into marriage.
It took another eight years before my (inevitable?) divorce happened in my head on my fortieth birthday while looking out into the Atlantic from the Dingle Peninsula. My youngest girl and I were on a trip home and I can still see her jumping up and down with me on the windy, green cliffs.
The divorce became legal only last July.

After a good Christmas2010, especially with the kids, my Ex wrote me a nasty email this morning emphasizing her bitterness and recalling her hurt.
It's funny how things happen and that your thread allowed me only yesterday to share my experiences.

Is this all just a fantasy?

I don't know why my Ex just can't leave me alone.
I once almost admitted to her that I have been crossdressing more, enjoying my freedom (from her - sorry for my bitterness) and simply being myself as you so poignantly put it.
She didn't mention crossdressing in her letter and that gives me a certain amount of satisfaction.
We're booked for therapy in the Spring - a demand of mine. We have to get on with one another because of the kids.

Moving into my own place was the most important step.
I do dress more but not nearly enough to quench my crossdressing-thirst.

As Gaby I would love to go out but you can perhaps understand now that I'm afraid of any taunting, and not least from my Ex.
I'm confident enough to believe that "going out" will happen when the time is right. It is becoming an important goal for me.

My self is very much Gaby
(but I've got to superwoman-change-superman again as I have my next appointment in fifteen minutes)

Gaby

[kitchenette]

Hey just wanted to weigh-in, as an SO of a CDer. First off, I'm with Shelly who said:

I may be wrong but you both need to sit down with a counselor who understands transgender issues
She seems to be offering you more freedom at the cost of losing her and the kids

What kind of choice is that? You're unhappy and maybe you'd be happier alone? Um, no. Maybe you'd be happier with some peace, love and understanding from the SO. Some kindness. It sounds like she's really really insecure about the dressing. She doesn't know what it means, really. You yourself admit that you are bi-curious, which is probably what scares her the most. (I'm really nervous about my SO running off to explore that, personally.) You two need to have a real conversation, you need to explain to her in a heartfelt manner the whys and wherefores and she should listen. She probably has a lot of questions for you and if she asks them, they come out in an angry way. She's accusing you, in a way, because she expects the relationship to fall apart. If I put myself in her shoes, I think she probably feels hopeless. She feels like she's made a realistic even generous compromise in letting you wear bras and panties, but she doesn't realize how unkind that is to you. You really are in a tough situation, and my heart goes out to you.

I say find a different counsellor. Maybe, try and take dressing off the the agenda for a moment and have a good, hard look at the other parts of your relationship. Are you good communicators in other aspects? Are you good partners to one another? Do you help each other in other ways? If the fundamentals between you aren't good, well, then nothing will be. I've been through a divorce with kids and let me say, it sucks. But I had to do it, I am happier, but part of me still hurts and wishes it could have been avoided - life sure would be a lot less complicated. But, like you, I had a spouse who did not support me emotionally plus he did not help me in any way. I am happier, I feel I have discovered a stronger, better me since the divorce... Whatever you do, move slowly. Take time to deeply consider and don't act out of anger. Try to act in a loving way, even if you do separate.

[laceyjessica]

Thanks Michael, I agree I am very meek when it comes to this because If the marraige ends I am assuming so is the closet.

Thanks Sharon I agree we do get grouped in to the catagory just wish it wasnt such taboo with society

Thanks Jay Cee, I agree I want to exhaust everything before I even consider separation but some of the comments from my wife I almost wonder if she is going to consider it first

Thanks Gaby, wow we are alike,lol and thats what I am afraid of If we separate and go our own ways I would hope to play being Jessica in most of my free time, just scares me and I know my wife she says she wants to see me happy and maybe I should go live on my own away from her and the kids, but I just know her vendictive side and the fact that she hates that I crossdress, I just see her using the dressing to her advantage.

Thanks Kitchenette, well we did the therapy ting she said its all on me, she has gone told her side and what she can handle and anything more I would have to go basically. See she doesnt want to be with a crossdresser, never signed up for it, she has known now for nine years and her stance hasnt changed, my fantasy as I put it makes me think I would be happy being able to be me, But i would miss my family structure. But the way it is now I am not happy and I miss something I have wanted to do all of my life and never have taken that chance. Like today I took 1/2 day off work, put on bra pnaties garter hose jeans blouse heels and breast forms and oh yea i disguised everything by wearing my mans sweatshirt, no makeup no wig, I bought some new foundation lingerie, shoes and a WEDDING GOWN. I would love to be able to come home and enjoy being femme, I cant and I have to hide everything, I guess no matter if she did accept I still would keep it from the kids until they were older.

[Sarah Doepner]

I just had one more observation. Your question is "is this all just a fantasy?" The answer is NO, absolutely not. What you are going through is totally REAL, not a fantasy but an effort to find out more about yourself. It's also real that your wife is more than just uncomfortable with the direction in which you are headed and you are being forced into a position where you will have to either deny yourself or accept significant changes in your family life. She has established that she won't change, and I'm guessing that is partly so she won't have to accept any responsibility if anything bad happens. Once again, good luck.

[Melissa Rose]

There have been many excellent points and comments made so I'm not going to re-hash or add more of the same to what has already been said. One bit of caution I offer is a few weekends or mini-vacation to more deeply explore your desires and feelings as Jessica is not going to be enough or be an accurate measure. I'm going to try and use an analogy to make clarify that statement. It will be like starting a new romance. Everything is so exciting in the beginning - all of your experiences are new and fun, you can't stop thinking about the other person and wanting to be with them, you dream and fantasize about the future. You are drunk on love and the rush that comes with it. New love is intoxicating, but it rarely stays that way nor will be an accurate reflection of the long term nature of the relationship. When the newness wears off and you move into that deeper level of love, that is more reflective of the true nature of the relationship. That is what you will be living with in the long term, not the exciting electricity of new love. I'm sorry to say having the freedom to fully dress will be very similar. I've seen it happen to a lot of t-girls. There is an initial high followed by a leveling off. It really is intoxicating and like taking a drug. You can't get enough of it and it is addictive. Unfortunately, you will not always have that same high you experienced in the beginning. When it levels off it may not be everything you thought is was going to be then you may regret what you gave up to get that initial high. It is sometimes referred to as being inside of a "pink fog" and it takes some time to get out of the fog and clearly everything that is around you. I've been there and many experienced t-girls have had similar experiences. Spending a small amount of time fully immersed as Jessica is not going to give you a complete picture. It will take time and multiple experiences which are things you do not appear to have available to you. So proceed with caution if you get to experience being Jessica and don't let the initial high color your decision too much.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but you are on the edge of a major life changing decision. You, and only you, have to decide whether you can happily live with whatever boundaries conditions get put into place regardless of the mechanism used to generate those boundaries. Whether they are fair or reasonable does not completely matter. We all have boundary conditions of some type and each have to decide whether they are acceptable and tolerable. Either change the boundaries, find a place with different ones or live with them. You also have to decide on what level of personal happiness you want and need. Until you find what boundaries you are willing to live with and your required happiness level, you will second guess yourself at every juncture.

I wish you the best of luck and the strength to work through this. It will not be easy or simple. There is a lot a stake so let both your mind and heart speak to you.

[Lilaka Ananda]

This is what I tell people: certain structures in my brain are feminized, either due to exposure to estrogen in the womb, or simple genetic expression, or perhaps both. I suspect that our spot on the transgender spectrum is determined by how much of our brains/nervous systems are feminized. Full TS folk are likely mostly that way, some of us are more even-brained, and some (like myself) are weighted to masculine, yet still influenced by feminine neurology.

The fantasy aspect is a huge part of this, because we are in male bodies. But I'd bet that the roots of this are very likely structural, that is, due to how the connections are arranged between neurons in the brain, and/or how those neurons respond when they are excited or inhibited.

[laceyjessica]

Sara...thanks for the addl info and I think your right she wont change and there is a part of me that doesnt expect her to,knowing her all these years its not just me her stance is just that, her stance and I have to respect that.I just cant help to think that were both stuck somehow and neither wants to givee in or give up, she has asked me to stop dressing and be a husband, i try to expplainits not that simple.
Thanks Melissa great analogy and that is my biggest fear that if we were to go separate directions and I go full steam ahead being Jessica anytime, I often think will I be bored wit that in a month 6 months a year and now I am by myself and the fantasy has faded, but there is another part of me that thinks I am 44 and have loved too dress all these years, now the desire is becoming stronger maybe it is time to go our separate ways and maybe it wont get boring after a month or 6 months and i might truely be happy about who I really am