*Woof*
*Woof*
Olivia
"Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, ... or you shall learn nothing." - Thomas Henry Huxley
"There are three sexes - men, women and girls." - Ambrose Bierce
Crossdressing is a rather private hobby, I mean.
Feeling feminine is a very private feeling, a private experience.
Why do you want necessarily being accepted in public doing such a private hobby ?
(For example, I enjoy hiking the mountains as a soloer. It is a rather private hobby too. I would not want to call attention to myself when I am enjoying it).
If you want to go in public enjoying your CD hobby, you have to make compromises with people.
If you don't want to make compromises, I would suggest you to crossdress privately !
Hugs
Nadia ("overcat")
Should I have compromised my gothness to go out in public?
Should I not have worn a necklace of buffalo bones carved into miniature skulls in public because some poeple might be offended by momento mori?
Was it wrong of me to go and pick up a pizza in a top hat, frilly shirt, satin waistcoat, womens pants, knee-high boots and velvet cloak?
No, I don't think it was wrong of me to not compromise at all. And where a decade ago I got the occassional nasty comment now I've not heard any and there are a few goths wondering around town in public.
In fact perhaps it was my lack of compromise that won that acceptance.
As for crossdressing being a private hobby... why should it be restricted to being a private hobby?
Surely it should be up to us whether or not we do so privatly or publicly? And shouldn't it be about whether we feel like being public or not that is important?
When I have gone out clearly expressing myself as a goth it was not for the purpose of drawing attention to myself, though that was often a result of doing so. It was because it felt good to express myself the way I felt in a positive and enriching way. I could have just kept the gothness for indoors, I could have left the white cotton lace shirts and black velvet for wearing around the house but that wasn't what I felt like doing.
The only compromises that seem reasonable to me are those for my own safety or for ensuring I do not restrict the rights of others.
Enjoy it
[SIZE="2"]I don't feel like an underdog at all. I feel that I am being myself. How society thinks doesn't really matter.
Gennee[/SIZE]
I'm getting better with age. I may have started late, but better late than never!
"Don't let anyone define who you are".
one thing i have learned more and more recently is that the vast majority of crossdressers seem to be hetrosexual many married with kids - i think its still a perception for many people that most are gay maybe its because gay tvs are more likely to admit it to people maybe its easier if you are gay people are less likely to be surprised or shocked when you tell them - maybe its worries some of us if we come out people will automatically label us as gay - nothing wrong with being gay but if your not you dont want people suspecting you are or might be ! i admire people confident enough to come out early on in life i dont think it gets any easier the older you get - eddie izzard is a famous crossdresser in this country he doesnt seem to care what people think we need more education given out to people more storylines in soaps or documentries - i see lots of storylines on homosexuality so people generally understand and accept this lifestyle its only education and bringing things into the media attention that changes peoples attitudes in the long run
It's not everybody but there are a lot of people who think that anything LGBT is perverted and twisted and I think they are probably not going to be nice about it. It doesn't matter that an awful lot of CD'rs aren't gay. And a lot of men tend to ignore and pass up women that are a little too gaunt and large and masculine in their physical build,clothes,hairstyles,etc.. There has been kind of a mellowing out in society in the past few decades but women are still a little bit subject. In a lot of businesses they don't get equal pay. I picked this saying up from a TV commercial about a year ago,but as a CD I'm glad that I've been equipped with a life that isn't average.
Why? Because so few of us are willing to get involved - look at the fear and prejudice we're showing in this thread.Originally Posted by battybattybats
NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT FOR US - WE HAVE TO DO IT FOR OURSELVES??
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
a) Keep in mind that it wasn't all that long ago that blacks could not mingle with whites, women were not allowed to vote, and gays were either jailed or sent to asylums.
b) It IS possible to change society, but only if enough people demand it be changed and stay changed.
:D
a) Yes....precisely.
b) Comes to mind the example of the erstwhile Yugoslavia; during the communist era ethnic resentments were held in check by the force of the steel fist in the iron glove; but when communism failed the lid came off and hostilities dating back to the middle ages came to the boil with the well-known result.
My point is this: real effective change only comes about from a process of education leading to understanding, not from an imposition of "values" from above....this I believe is a potentially dangerous tactic.
In the UK and Europe we have all this (I think) nonsense about the suppression of, for example, nursery-rhymes such as "Baa-baa black sheep"....the board on which the teacher chalks up stuff can't be referred-to as the "blackboard"....people are discouraged from wearing emblems of their faith such as crucifix or crescent-moon necklaces...one could go on.
I agree with you that society can be changed, and should be...just offering a gentle caveat here as to how it may be best achieved?
J.
Last edited by JacquiUKTV; 12-18-2007 at 10:05 PM.
When some things are clearly offensive a point can be made but these examples are of course ludicrous (though chalkboard works well as a replacement, often more accurate as many of the boards are dark grey or even green.. but what are they calling 'whiteboards'?).
As for emblems of faith, as long as no-one is being forced to wear them then I don't see any harm in such. I certainly oppose the prevention of free expression of individuals faith as much as I oppose state-based expressions of faith. Both are bad and for the same reason.
Perhaps it would be good to analyse how this has been achieved in the past? Women have come close to equality in western society. How did they manage it?I agree with you that society can be changed, and should be...just offering a gentle caveat here as to how it may be best achieved?
Women changed their situation by stepping forward. Homosexuals changed their situation by stepping forward. Although both groups would tell you they have a long way to go, both have made considerable progress in achieving fairer treatment and the ability to move more openly in society. If we are "underdogs" there is only one way for us to change it. It will take decades to achieve the kind of acceptance we think we want even if we step out into the light and take what comes. Our movement has it's brave pioneers and to them we owe a great debt. Start by telling your favorite person, then take it one day at a time.
While state enforcement of tolerance won't do the trick by itself, protective legislation from discrimination can create a zone of safety within which education and understanding can blossom. It's easier to educate when you have less death-threats.
As long as someone doesn't come along later and whip the next generation of pent-up youth into a frenzy of scapegoating for political purposes which is often the cause of surges of racism and other intolerances that strike otherwise successful commuinities.
Last edited by battybattybats; 12-19-2007 at 03:35 AM. Reason: clarity
This is SO wanting to be put on a t-shirt!
"I will NOT compromise my Gothness!"
From one Goth girl to another...Love ya, Batty and thank you!
*hugs*
Zara
[QUOTE=shirley1;1122692]does anyone think like me and think we are currently the biggest underdogs in society -
Only if we let our selve be Shirley. It takes confidence, attitude and some bravery on our part, to make ourselves known and accepted.
First of all - great thread! The responses have been dead-on.
I wouldn't count too heavily on political solutions. Lawmakers will only do what is politically expedient - what will get them re-elected. A bill like SONDA can pass because the lesbian/gay community is a recognizable demographic that can be counted and measured in terms of where they live, what they do for a living, how they vote and how they spend their money. Being gay/lesbian has become ubiquitous. It's just there. Politicians will pander to a demographic like that.
The transgender community has made a habit of coat-tailing on the work of the lesbian/gay community. It doesn't bring much to the table and is more of a liability than an asset. I can understand the political realities (although I am not pleased about it) that caused gender identity to be excluded from SONDA.
Crossdressing is still very much out of sight and off the radar, still very much a marginalized and ghetto-ized sub-culture.
What amazes me is that here, in my area (upstate New York) I never see another crossdresser in public. Never! Of course, I don't hang out in gay bars, which, I guess, is where you'll find all the crossdressers. This has nothing to do with homophobia - the gay bars around here are mostly dives. And besides, it gets back to the notion of being ghetto-ized and invisible.
I can assure you that if you crossdress in public and act like you deserve to be taken seriously and shown some basic respect, you will get it. People don't react to the fact you are crossdressed as much as they do to how you go about it. And I'm not talking about "passable."
OK. I'm off my soapbox now. Whew! But seriously, great stuff here ladies, everyone. Thank you.
Yvonne
No worries Zara
It might indeed make a good t-shirt the way you've rephrased it.
It also is an important comparison I think. Being goth in public can upset others as much as being dressed (or at least it used to). You can be crossing all sorts of arbitrary rules. Once, back in the 90's, I had an old lady cross a busy road just to try and convince me that I was being led astray by the lies of satan and that I needed to follow the words of christ!
All because in her eyes all goths were satanists or pagans (which to her were satanists who didn't know they were satanists) who were suicidally depressed (and I've always been a happy optimist!). Sure I'm not christian but I have goth friends who are and after a short conversation she wandered off muttering and shaken, sure that I was irreversibly damned.
These days I just get the occassional weird looks from some, admiring looks from others. No more nasty or mocking comments at all.
When I go out I can't pass. Even at transgendered bars the gay guys skoff and give me strange looks sometimes. The TG and cd's always are friendly and the GG are always friendly. White bi guys just try and pick me up! I think yes, we are the bottom of the social ladder. We aren't accepted or understood by anyone else.
No, No, NO - I am not gonna make a reference to 'Airplane'..
I think it's distinctly noticeable (at least in Europe) how those in their teens, twenties and even thirties are now much more tolerant of difference in all forms (hence the fuss in the UK yesterday about the Pogues song 'Christmas in New York', where a youth-based radio station started censoring 'faggot' and '****' from the 18 yr old lyrics - don't worry, they've stopped).
And if they are actively accepting (and IME they often are, very) that attitude does percolate upwards..
Last edited by Nicki B; 12-19-2007 at 08:52 PM.
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
We need a national Transgender day and have our own parade.
So, which day then shall we set up?
Whenever I have worn a skirt in male mode, there have never been any issues at all.
Great post , yes i see where your coming from and i do feel like you .As Crossdressers we havent to be affraid to show our MALE feelings as well , by this i mean dont let crossdressings be the taboo subject its made to be .Go out with your mates and tell them its bloody fantastic and they should try it, have a few pints with then in drab , watch the sports with them and gradually bring it out as its the most normal thing in the world to you .Try growing your fingers nails paint them the colour of your favourite sports team , things like that.
Society accepts more when people dont make a song and dance about their beliefs turn it from being a weakness into a strength .I know this isnt true of us all but we shouldnt be as quick to bury our male selfs
Well thats my 10pence worth Merry christmas xxxx
Be part of the solution
Not the problem
Hi Em...
Well in the UK, that'd be Sparkle, surely?
Nicki
[SIZE="1"]Moi?[/SIZE]
Wow! That parade looks AWESOME! I'm not a huge fan of pink but that pink tank is just the right shade. Delightful!Hi Em...
Well in the UK, that'd be Sparkle, surely?
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