Are we naive about the signals we send

[Beth-Lock]

I think my point was that femininity is a symbol, and should not be taken as a sign.

[RobertaFermina]

Unfair !

Men in dirty work clothes, uniforms, business casual, suits and ties all cruise for sex....why single me (Enfemme) out ?

Beth, I think some CDs may not be conscious of their courtship impulses. Some of us are actively courting relationship or "a little spice."

Then there is large minority...or majority, who simply "wanna have fun".

Then there is a small minority who are "working girls."

There is enough going on for anyone to tell any story about CDs that they want to tell, and have a little truth to hang their story on.

I dress for fun only. I returned all passes with "Roberta doesn't do sex", and I received a few polite and genuine offers, along with the crass. I got the nice offers in "nice clubs" and the crass ones in "meat markets". No Surprises there.

Roberta

[Nicki B]

I think my point was that femininity is a symbol, and should not be taken as a sign.

But IT IS. A sign is exactly what a symbol is. You have to learn to deal with it?

[marie354]

Unfair !

Men in dirty work clothes, uniforms, business casual, suits and ties all cruise for sex....why single me (Enfemme) out ?

Beth, I think some CDs may not be conscious of their courtship impulses. Some of us are actively courting relationship or "a little spice."

Then there is large minority...or majority, who simply "wanna have fun".

Then there is a small minority who are "working girls."

There is enough going on for anyone to tell any story about CDs that they want to tell, and have a little truth to hang their story on.

I dress for fun only. I returned all passes with "Roberta doesn't do sex", and I received a few polite and genuine offers, along with the crass. I got the nice offers in "nice clubs" and the crass ones in "meat markets". No Surprises there.

Roberta

It's a shame that a lot of men only think of women for sex. Women are so much more. After all, they (the men) wouldn't even be here if it weren't for women carrying them for 9-months.
I dress mainly to please myself, but also to represent women and CD's as well, so I always try to dress well.
Sure, men will always flirt. (Even the married ones.)
Sometimes it's harmless, but there are a few that are so crass that they deserve a good slap across the face to wake them up.
I have found the men in my area don't seem to notice the difference. Of the ones that do, a lot don't seem to care that I'm biologically male, while some are completely outraged.
Fortunately, most accept me for who I really am.
The same is true with women as well. Some absolutely hate it, while others are OK with it.
While I'm not out looking for sex with anyone at this time in my life, (I've still a lot to go through.) I do have to point it out to some and say ''NO!''

[Fab Karen]

The acceptance of the 'signals' argument is sexist. It perpetuates and enshrines the victimisation of women, the second-class status of women.

It's a common excuse for rape. It's allowing women's self expression to be curtailed by imposition of unjustifiable consequence upon it.

[harmony]

one of my first outings-some 40 plus years ago in vienna austria where i grew up-was to a formal ball in a ballgown with all the trappings.what an exhiliarating experience!!
but i realized as well how naive i was.i circulated among the crowd of hundreds of people dancing with members of my party only(they knew).i was checked out by horny men all night until i felt like a piece of meat at the butcher.i realized then what ggs go through and that i was guilty of doing the same myself.
what i gained from it at a tender age was a very healthy respect for womanhood .

[karezza]

Excellent post, battybattybats (great name). Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish. Most of us just want to express our feminine sides, but it is assumed that by dressing like women we are cruising. That is just ignorance and what women have put up with forever. In my opinion, the problem is not naivety about our signals, but naivety about how they are being interpreted. Unfortunately, a large percentage of men are idiots who view women as sex objects and CDs as fags. Some are very dangerous. And beyond that, most people in general don't have the least understanding of crossdressing and why we do it. My advice is be alert, be safe, and don't expect to be understood. Express yourself freely with those who are open to you and don't waste your time with fools who don't get it.

[sherri]

the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"

Bullseye.

[Beth-Lock]

Though I have not reread it for a long time, I was thinking of the distinction between sign and symbol made by the philosopher, Suzanne K. Langer.

[battybattybats]

Excellent post, battybattybats (great name). Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish. Most of us just want to express our feminine sides, but it is assumed that by dressing like women we are cruising. That is just ignorance and what women have put up with forever. In my opinion, the problem is not naivety about our signals, but naivety about how they are being interpreted. Unfortunately, a large percentage of men are idiots who view women as sex objects and CDs as fags. Some are very dangerous. And beyond that, most people in general don't have the least understanding of crossdressing and why we do it. My advice is be alert, be safe, and don't expect to be understood. Express yourself freely with those who are open to you and don't waste your time with fools who don't get it.

Thanks.
Though I don't agree about most men being idiots, rather they are deeply indoctrinated. Taught to be that way, punished with violence both emotional psychological and physical untill they are that way.

It's the truth most (not all) feminists ignore and much of society ignores. The worst aspects of male society are created, a self perpetuating system of brutalisation with each generation truamatising the next in the same way they once were.

Homophobia, sexism and racism are essential components of this and as we have seen the eroding and unraveling if these we have seen the eroding and unraveling of traditional male culture but it's still pervasive. Each genertion still has to run a gauntlet of indoctrination and abuse with those who are caring, compassionate or who can be labelled in any way as gay or girly with that being flung against them.

Boys suffer emotional abuse, are taught to repress their feellings with the exception of anger and aggression.

It's not as bad as it was but it's still there. Boys are taught to treat women that way, to think of women that way. We must undo that teaching in a constructive and positive way. We need a revolution in the male world of western society even greater than the one that feminism created in the female one. One that will undo the very glorification of the modes of thinking that support homophobia, transphobia, sexism, racism and a great many of the worlds ills by striking at the source rather than the symptoms.

Men need to be freed from male stereotypes and we need to decry male stereotypes with as much or more than was done when women decried female stereotypes.

[kimmy p]

Well nothings as it appears any more... And the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"... Though It may not come off that way.. My wife says I'm the queen of mixed signals ... Dahhhhh...

Ok you have me curious.... Does your wife actually use the word "Queen" or is that you paraphrasing. Even though my wife is mostly supportive she has never used a feminine description of me. I think I'm jealous.

[kimmy p]

When an Australian muslim cleric referred to women wearing quite common clothing as 'uncovered meat' and that if you leave 'uncovered meat' out and some cats eat it you cannot blame the cats. He was referring to a series of gang rapes of women by youths from the Australian muslim community.

I have heard this type of monkey poo way to many times during televised or written interviews about Muslim women's rights. I have nothing but scorn for the "faithful/devoted/holy" who victimize women and then blame the women for their own failings. This Australian cleric has it right in one aspect, and is unintentionally insulting his own people in the process. He makes reference to cats. Only animals cannot control their baser urges. One should NEVER blame the women for your own lack of self control. That just P!$$es me off.

[valenstein]

I like the attention.
I'd rather hang out with women, the places i hang out, it's easier to make friends in clothes that show off how I feel.
I don't mind being chased a little, but unless I'm wearing heels, I won't be caught

[Beth-Lock]

... men .. are deeply indoctrinated. Taught to be that way, punished with violence both emotional psychological and physical until they are that way.

It's the truth most (not all) feminists ignore and much of society ignores. The worst aspects of male society are created, a self perpetuating system of brutalisation with each generation truamatising the next in the same way they once were.
....
Each generation still has to run a gauntlet of indoctrination and abuse with those who are caring, compassionate or who can be labelled in any way as gay or girly with that being flung against them.

Boys suffer emotional abuse, are taught to repress their feellings with the exception of anger and aggression.
....
Men need to be freed from male stereotypes and we need to decry male stereotypes with as much or more than was done when women decried female stereotypes.

And of course women join in, in the indoctrination, humiliation and emotional abuse. But then women are human, and it is a social thing, dating from a time of rampant casual cruelty in the socialization process.