Whose decision is it?

[Kelli Michelle]

Wow, great comments, and ideas.

I keep hearing people say, "you didn't tell your wife...before you were married..." She did know I crossdressed. She even bought me a nightgown. Let's close the case on that, ok?
Even if I hadn't told her, I don't see what that would have to do with my questions, but let's get past that too. What she knew, is what I knew.

I didn't know if I was further along the path ( I always thought I was simply a cder) until later, when I I discovered things about myself, in going out dressed. At the time we were separated while I was trying to secure a job while she was with the kids in another country. I told her as soon as I saw her (you don't discuss things like this over the phone).

Even though I didn't want this thread to be about me, it looks like it IS gonna be about me, so I will just go with it.

As far as what constitutes a TS or not, contradict me if you will, but I have done not considerable research on lots of aspects of CDing and TS, etc. While, I suppose, the primary model for a TS is one where they felt like a woman in a man's body from early years, it's not the only model. I remember when I was around 2-3 yrs. Old (I know what age I was now), I tried on some little girl pantaloons (my sister's) and confidently waked out into the front yard. My mom was screaming at me, as was my dad. That part of me went into the closet until about 12 when I discovered my mom's lingerie. It has gone on since then. Having been heavily immersed in all things male (heavy sports, 3 brothers, etc) and not having the time or opportunity it has taken some time to discover what I am. My thought is that I am not a "true" TS, but somewhere in between. I don't want ALL of what goes with being as TS, but would like breast implants and would like to live as a woman 24/7.

Reine, as far as whether my thoughts on this might change at some point in the future, I suppose that is possible, since I am not a true TS.

I am not blaming my wife for whatever her stance is. I suppose it's natural to assume that I am simply pushing boundaries, or that I am failing to take her feelings into account. I am actually very sympathetic and empathetic. IT would be difficult for anyone. That doesn't preclude me from being what I believe I am, or her from trying to understand my situation, even if she doesn't like it. Should we say, " well, this isn't fair to my wife (or she doesn't like it), so I will just let it go and go back to my old self, even though it would be a lie, and cause us both incredible stress and depression ..." ?

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

[Kelli Michelle]

Joanne, your situation sounds a bit like me. How far does yours go? Would like any type of body modification?

Here is what i would submit: if you love your wife but, she wants you to leave (should you continue to cd more) and you decide I will stay, than I would submit that you do indeed have the pink fog. However, if you decide to leave, than you don't have the pink fog---it's something more.

If, in the above case, you weren't deeply in love with your wife and the same exact situation occurred, and you left, it could be EITHER the pink fog or something more. If you stayed, then it definitely is the pink fog.

Hope I am being sufficiently confusing, lol.

Thanks for the input.

[JamieDP]

I did not mean my reply to suggest that you didn't tell before hand. As I read your post I actually thought about you stating that she knew up front and was thinking how fustrating this must be for you especially having been up front.

I guess in answer to the original question "who's decision is it?" I could've been much more brief in my answer...but you know as a girl at heary I have a tendency to go on and on...oops i did it again...

anyway my thoughts...and just my thoughts is i do think it is the decision or choice of both people in the relationship and the choices are but not limited to...choosing to accept each others feelings coupled with choosing to find a comprimise and a peaceful life together where both can feel free and fulfilled in life or choosing to not accept something of the other person leaving that person possibly unhappy and resentful, thus possibly leading to a wedge or gap in the relationship ultimately.

again just my thoughts...

[Kelli Michelle]

Well Jamie, you had lots to say, so say it girl. I agreed with a lot what you had to say btw. All this discussion is good, even the parts that didn't sound right to me. It all helps one look at all the angles. If I just wanted one side versus all, I never would have posted.

[battybattybats]

Let she who has never lied cast the first stone.

Cause studies have shown that even in anonymous surveys many poeple lie. For example men exaggerate upwards their number of sexual partners in their sexual history and women exaggerate the same thing downwards. Both lying. Plenty of people, almost a third, both men and women equally, cheat on their partners. Liars.

And in day to day life most people lie plenty every single day.

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

Now that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but it is so. It was something womens-rights campainers fought for!

Almost everyone has secrets they wish to keep. Secret attractions, secret fantasies.

People often dont tell their partner that they find other people attractive, or that they fantasise about other people.

About 1/3rd of the audience of pornography is female and that proportion is swiftly growing. I'm sure plenty are not being open about that.

Heck the amount of American women who have had voluntary sex with a dog is said to be more than 1% which if so would make them more common than some estimates of TSs!

Do you think the bestialist GGs have confessed their past unethical and illegal abusive sex with an unable-to-give-informed-consent animal to their husbands?

When many have not disclosed their true number of past sexual partners to their husbands I'm certain many GGs have skeletons in their closet too.

And such secrets are often not of being guilty of crimes or of having fetishes or fantasies. Most victims of abuse, physical and/or sexual, as adults or children do not tell their partners. Men and women both. For fear of what people will think of them, of their judgement or because they just dont want to or dont feel able to talk about it! 1 in 3 women and 1 in 7 men are the current estimate figures for being victims of sexual abuse.

The kind of honesty people are expecting of others is in fact extraordinarily rare. That all CDs spouses, every single one, are so completely 100% honest beggars belief. It's likely less probable than the loch ness monster falling through my ceiling while singing yankee doodle dandee in the next 5 minutes.

People also have a right to change their mind. They have a right to change as a person. They have a right to total and final say over their own bodies even in relationships no matter the circumstances. They have a right to their own private property.

Even were CDing to be a hobby it is unethical and emotional blackmail for one partner to make such a conditional demand on their spouse. To bargain is one thing, request too is fine. To decide that one cannot handle something and leave is all fine. But to demand a person become responsible for your own decision to leave or not, to use the threat of leaving in order to obtain a desired result is unethical pure and simple.

But the choice to leave (or end the relationship), if it is a choice, belongs to the person who chooses to leave (or end the relationship).

If we extend the responsibility for the decision from the chooser to the person whose circumstances/actions/words prompted that choice then logically the choice to hide being a CD for example is no longer the CDs responsibility but that of all those whose statements and actions led them to believe that was a good course of action or something they should hide.

And with the existence of GID a currently recognised condition and with CDing thouroughly under-studied the presumption that CDing is a choice that can easilly be discarded is an unfair one.

Logically both the CD and GG should be more worried about the nearly 1 in 3 chance their partner is cheating, risking bringing STDs into their marital bed.

But if the CD needs to be a CD and/or the GG needs them not to be a CD regardless of whether there was honesty or acceptance about it from the start and/or a need or circumstance or feelling about it that changes or is discovered to be different and they cannot change that need then that is their need and the other cannot and should not be made responsible for what decisions they make if they cannot have that need met. If both have that need then neither is responsible for the failure of the realtionship!

And thus far, in most cases and maybe all CDs cannot quit being a CD and cannot try without risk to long-term mental health. I'm certain that some GGs cannot remain in a relationship with a CD.

Now consider that the people who create a climate of fear and shame and hiding around CDing might be able to be considered culpable in the CDs who hide that fact from their SOs,...

In which case if we look at the big picture then creating a situation of such increased acceptance of CDs that most feel able to be open and honest about being Cd without fear of reprisal or negative consequence for it so that CDs can be open from the start and find accepting SOs from the outset and all GGs can know full well that CDs exist and their partner may be one is a serious necessity and obligation for everyone.

[sissystephanie]

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

Batty, are you now or have you ever been married? That statement of yours that I quoted sounds as though it comes from a person who has never experienced "true" married love. If two people really truly love each other and are completely honest with each other, privacy is not an issue! If you have read my other posts, you know that I was married over 49 years to the same wonderful lady. She supported my CD activities for the entire time, always knowing that I was still her Man underneath the dress, skirt, etc! We never had a problem with "privacy!"

Kelli, your wife married a man!! Now you want to live as a woman! Not what she expected you to do. Sure, she knew you were a CD before you were married! But it is fairly obvious you never told her about your very strong feminine desires. IMHO, you are the only one who has any blame! If you had told her the whole truth back when your marriage started, you probably would not be in the position you are in right now. Yes, you might not even be married. But that might be the best route for you, given what you want to do with your life.

I have been a CD, off and on, for over 60 years. I had been a CD for about 16years when I got married. Never once did I think about becoming a woman, only about dressing like one!, My dear late wife asked me, more then once, if I felt like actually becoming a woman! I told he, "No, I want to be your husband but I do like to dress like a woman!" She told me that she was fine with that as long as I did remember that I was a man. See my tag line!! BTW, I said I had been a CD, off and on! That is because I did stop completely for a 5 year period, and only started dressing again because my dear wife begged me to! She liked having Stephanie as a girl friend!!

If you haven't already discussed this with your wife, I suggest you two see a Therapist who specializes in Gender problems as soon as possible. Crossdressing itself is not necessarily being Transgendered, but wanting to have breast implants and live 24/7 as a woman certainly qualifies one as being Transgendered, or maybe even Transsexual.

[battybattybats]

Batty, are you now or have you ever been married?

No, my longest relationship was cohabiting for almost 6 years though. But I have seen enough abusive marriages around me to know just how vital for womens (and mens) rights it was to ensure that the right to privacy legally counted even in marriage.

The right to privacy exists at all levels, between parents and children, husband and wife, and of course citizens have a right to privacy from the state but not so much vice versa on the last in a democracy.

That statement of yours that I quoted sounds as though it comes from a person who has never experienced "true" married love. If two people really truly love each other and are completely honest with each other, privacy is not an issue!

Two people being so completely honest with each other is rare indeed. And not so much as common as you seem to think. Despite the depth of love, and often very much because of it people on a daily basis deceive in small and large ways those around them. As the statistics on cheating and deception on a host of issues shows. Few are so principled as to be able to bear the consequences of extreme honesty or are fortunate enough to not have such consequences to suffer.

If you have read my other posts, you know that I was married over 49 years to the same wonderful lady. She supported my CD activities for the entire time, always knowing that I was still her Man underneath the dress, skirt, etc! We never had a problem with "privacy!"

And your good fortune is no yardstick to measure by when many will not be so fortunate (please see Rawls Veil Of Ignorance test of justice). Rights exist to protect those whose fortunes are not so great or who may be abused by power.

Kelli, your wife married a man!! Now you want to live as a woman! Not what she expected you to do. Sure, she knew you were a CD before you were married! But it is fairly obvious you never told her about your very strong feminine desires. IMHO, you are the only one who has any blame! If you had told her the whole truth back when your marriage started, you probably would not be in the position you are in right now. Yes, you might not even be married. But that might be the best route for you, given what you want to do with your life.

See now this is where ignorance, just lack of knowledge or worse willfull ignorance, of the psychological reality of repression and the results of fear gets you. Should we condemn the victims of child abuse for not informing their spouses prior to marriage? After all most do not! And most tend to suffer ongoing mental health issues from that trauma that manifests years into the marriage affecting the entire family!

Because us CDs are traumatised into repression. Just like the closeted homosexuals of past decades were. Thats why there are those comorbidities of depression, anxiety etc and that horribly high suicide rate.

Even when a CD, or a victim of rape as while far from the same the process is similar, informs their partner well before such a commitment as marriage the healling process takes time and its path cannot easilly be predicted. So if someone thinks they are merely a CD but their growing self acceptance in the safe space of a seemingly secure relationship leads them to discover they are TS there is no betrayel by the CD there, merely a best guess from a position of ordinary ignorance. That is blameless no matter how in error it can be!

Crossdressing itself is not necessarily being Transgendered, but wanting to have breast implants and live 24/7 as a woman certainly qualifies one as being Transgendered, or maybe even Transsexual.

A tomboy is transgender. By definition every crossdresser is transgender.

Certainly informing a prospective spouse beforehand of being a CD, of the small but real possibility one could turn out to be a TS is the ethical, the clearly right thing to do. But the assumption that everyone is just plain capable of easilly doing so is unfair in just the same way as assuming everyone is capable of confessing to their suffering sexual assault. In reality only a minority have the strength and courage to do so!

Its oh so easy for those of us like you and me who were so capable of such a confession to sit in judgement on others, to blame the victims of a pattern of psychological repression seen in every major stygmatised minority group in history for their own suffering. But the trouble is that such a pattern of repression does exist. It's darn obvious once you look at other similar populations of oppressed and stygmatised people who go through the exact same pattern!

[LisaElizabeth]

Batty,
I have to side with Stephanie here..... I can see your point and I agree that there are many marriages that last a long time without the partners knowing all of each other's secrets.
However.. (You just KNEW there was a however, didn't you?) My lovely wife and I have been married for 33 years. She knew about my dressing before we married. It took a lot of years and a lot of 'self-discovery' for both of us before she became comfortable going out with me for a 'girl's night out'.
Basically society had to change!! From the look of your pic, if that is current, we are in two different generations, having grown up under different sets of social rules as it were.
I grew up pretty much under the same rules as Stephanie. And believe me, if you were a CD, and left your house, you were most likely going to get your buttocks kicked before you returned home. It was an era of 'McCarthy-ism' and the Cold war. If you weren't as GOD made you, then you were a Communist, or worse... A homo!!!!
That made you a fifth class person, were the dog had more rights than you did.
At that time 'gay' meant you were happy. Sex was something nice girls didn't talk about or do until they were married. And being a CD was a mental disorder that got you committed to an asylum for Electro-shock therapy.
This attitude contiued through much of the 1970's. By that time, stephanie and I were both already married!!! I think it is actually miraculous that we both found spouses open minded enough in that time period to have loved us anyway.
Today? Life is dramatically different. Living with someone for 6 years? My god, you would have been stoned to death!! Today both of my kids have lived with prospective mates. One is getting married this June!!
The other left broken hearted after 4 years.
Is it better than what Stephanie and I grew up with? I do not know, it's just different.
It also now allows us to go out and have a night out en femme and not worry as much for our safety. As long as you take all the precautions any woman would take, you are relatively safe. THAT is a totally different scenario.
Just my take on things.
ALL comments are welcome.
Lisa E

[Kelli Michelle]

It's amazing how these threads have a life of their own. What started out as X, often ends with a discussion of Y. Even though this thread isn't about lying to spouses and assessing "blame" per se, that is apparently where it's at now. Incredible!!!

I have made it clear that I, pretty quickly, told my wife, WHEN I knew things, and was upfront when we got married. I have also made it clear, that I don't blame her for not wanting to be in a relationship with a woman. I can repeat this as many times as you want, and you can keep posting that I didn't do all this as many times as you want. Enjoy!

I don't think Batty is saying that one SHOULD keep secrets , but that people do keep secrets from each other, even loving, secure spouses. If you feel that you can and want to tell your spouse or SO everything, by all means do. I do try to do that as well. But my experiences aren't the same as someone else's. I am not going to try to assess blame, or criticize what a person has done, without having walked in their exact shoes.

Thanks again for the input. It is much appreciated

[Karen564]

Kelli,

Is it really all that amazing it turned out this way??

On my 1st post to you I had asked a direct question to you if your wife knew if you were a CDer before you got married, because I believe it matters.
But you never answered it.

I had also mentioned to you on my 2nd post here that your thread was rather confusing in the way you worded it.

So for anyone to give you an answer your question here correctly, it seems it takes some kind of super interpretation skills at the very least to figure out what your really asking.

And far as I was aware of, you never stated anything about what you told your wife and made nothing clear here, not on this thread anyways, so what is everyone supposed to do, go back and read all your past threads so we know what was said or not said??

Maybe it's just me, but I find you very confusing..but I was never to good at mind reading, so that's my fault.

And what batty is saying, sounds like a recipe for a disastrous relationship, and a highly dysfunctional one at best, all I can say is, good luck to her with that.

I personally find it much easier to give a direct answer to a direct question, that's all I'm saying..I'm just a dumb twit simpleton I guess.IDK, lol

Good luck to you,
I do wish you well,
Karen

[battybattybats]

Kel
And what batty is saying, sounds like a recipe for a disastrous relationship, and a highly dysfunctional one at best, all I can say is, good luck to her with that.

When about 1 in 3 people cheat and more than 1 in 3 marriages does not end in divorce (it's about 60% divorce rate in most western countries iirc) then there are seemingly successful marriages where nonetheless that cheating is occurring.

The average person lies several times a day. Those who dont are mostly mentally ill, brain-damaged or otherwise congnitively challenged or are differently cognitively wired like Aspergers. Then there are a microscopic minority of idealists. But even those idealists often regularly manipulate the truth in order to be more polite, like quietly suggesting a different brand of deoderant rather than telling someone outright that they stink.

Once you consider omission a lie then it is an essential part of human interaction, from neccessary politeness to Ethical requirements for patient confidentiality!

Now while I personally disagree with deception the need to respect confidance is clear. And when someone needs to escape an abusive spouse then the need of having the legal right to privacy is absolutely clear.

Someone can love their wife or husband dearly yet know their spouse is a gossip unable to keep juicy rumours to themselves in which case keeping things told to them by others in confidance from the gossipy spouse is absolute. Right there is another perfect example of the right to privacy in a relationship.

And once again I point out that 1/3rd of women have been raped as adults or children and at least and likely more than 1/7th of men have been raped as adults or boys. There are plenty of things people do not share. Often for good reasons. Often because they cannot bring themselves to talk about it!

So sometimes, such as with confidance or if the spouse is abusive, then omission or even deception can be the right thing to do. And othertimes such as with trauma like sexual abuse it is too difficult for people to bring up till often after years of marriage if ever!

If say for example the spouse is suffering from a severe psychological illness where some things could easilly trigger a crisis, self-harm or violence towards others then to an extent keeping them from such triggers may be vital.

How often do people, especially women, leave telling their loved ones about health problems untill after they have had a confirming or clearing diagnosis so as to save loved ones from unneccessary stress and worry?

Many many many women upon finding a lump in their breast for example will wait till after the mammogram or ultrasound etc before telling their family that they have cancer or dont once they know either way or only when they have to go into surgery for a biopsy to be sure.

Now me personally, I'm honest to the extreme. I'm polite about it (such as the deoderant Vs stink point above) and I will respect things said in confidance by omitting information unless there is an ethical obligation to tell (so I'm a bad person to confess a murder to). But I realise I'm an exception and not the norm.

But when considering right and wrong in relationships, when considering rights, you have to look at all permutations of relationships, all possible occurances and influencing factors not just ideal situations and relationships!

[epsxyblkm]

I don't feel that dressing is a condition. I can also say that my wife was not fully aware about my feelings about dressing. Nothing was ever hidden from her. I just think that it took some time for me to actually be able to afford this side of my person. And knowing just who I decided to spend the rest of my life with, I know that she would never have me choose one or the other.

I do know that she is upset that I took her skirt for my profile photo.

[Shannen]

I'm sorry to say I didn't read through every post in this thread...yet...

But it occurred to me that every single choice we make in life causes others to evaluate how they fit into that choice.... you know what I mean?

If you have a wife, at some point you chose her, and therefore excluded others from having that relationship with you.

If you consume adult beverages, you probably include/exclude others from your social life based on that. (same for smoking)

The style of dress you chose will cause people to form a first impression of you that usually lasts a lifetime... for good or bad.

No matter how idealistic we are in our view of the world, every move we make is evaluated by those that observe our actions.

So the bottom line? What is accomplished by denying yourself and living a lie? Is that the proper way to live in a relationship? I don't consider crossdressing to be morally corrupt. Cheating on a spouse is in my book though...

[Madame George]

She did know I crossdressed. ... What she knew, is what I knew.

I didn't know if I was further along the path ( I always thought I was simply a cder) until later, when I discovered things about myself, in going out dressed.

This is not uncommon at all. You found something that satisfied your need at first, but the farther it went the more you needed.

As far as what constitutes a TS or not, contradict me if you will, ... My thought is that I am not a "true" TS, but somewhere in between. I don't want ALL of what goes with being as TS, but would like breast implants and would like to live as a woman 24/7.

There is no such thing as a "true" TS. Yes, I've heard the argument many times, but it really is a crock of shit. If you have the need to live the rest of your life as a woman you're most likely a transexual. Breast implants or not.

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

I wish I could say it was that easy for her. It's just not and a lot of factors play into that. The way she was raised, her views on marriage and commitment, her love for you, and her relationship history as a woman. And that's just a few. There are A LOT more.

As a wife of a TS, I can only tell you what helped me. Tell her how you feel. Not what you want to do or plan to do, but how you feel. Then give her time and listen to her. She will, and most likely already is, going through the stages of grief. If she isn't already seeing a counselor, suggest that she get one. Later, if she's interested, there are a few books that might help her. PM me and I'll give you a short list. Be kind to yourself and her right now. She's probably not talking from a rational place right now, but one born from fear and pain.

[jennifer easton]

Cheryl T, you so took the words out of my mouth, hit it on the head, My girl kathie is my best girl friend, and me hers, like you and yours we do and compliment each other, I love her for letting me be me!! if it would have come down to it , rather than lose her I would have put Jennifer away, but it turned out there was no need she loves both of us, I'm so lucky!!!! Jennifer

[Madame George]

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

Now that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but it is so. It was something womens-rights campainers fought for!

Really, this is a right the feminists fought for? When? Honestly, in ALL of my gender and womens studies classes, this is the first I've heard of it. Oh, and as a stickler for the details, I would appreciate citation/documentation.

The right to privacy exists at all levels, between parents and children, husband and wife, and of course citizens have a right to privacy from the state but not so much vice versa on the last in a democracy.

Are you really sure about this? I noticed your location was Australia, so are you speaking as an Aussie? Just so you know, this is not true in The States. Children, under the age of 18 living with their parents do not have a right to privacy under the law. Spouses also do not have a right to privacy under the law. The state thing used to be true, but then we had this lovely little thing called the Patriot Act happen and that blew that right to hell and back.

Heck the amount of American women who have had voluntary sex with a dog is said to be more than 1% which if so would make them more common than some estimates of TSs!

Again, citation/documentation.

The kind of honesty people are expecting of others is in fact extraordinarily rare. That all CDs spouses, every single one, are so completely 100% honest beggars belief. It's likely less probable than the loch ness monster falling through my ceiling while singing yankee doodle dandee in the next 5 minutes.

Did anyone here, CD, TS, or partner say that they were *ALWAYS* honest to everyone about everything? Here's the rub. Communication and honesty are IMHO two of the most important aspects needed in a trans relationship. A CD or TS has issues with their gender and, believe it or not, that has effects on their partner's gender as well. If we're not willing to talk about how we feel to each other, then how are we to be able to empathize with someone we profess to love?

People also have a right to change their mind. They have a right to change as a person. They have a right to total and final say over their own bodies even in relationships no matter the circumstances. They have a right to their own private property.

You're absolutely right. I would add, if we're talking about someone doing body modifications or something that would effect their spouse or relationship, they also have the right to expect a very abrupt ending to their relationship.

No matter how you rationalize it, people don't exist in vacuums. When we get into relationships we open our lives up to someone else, and they to us. When that relationship becomes long-term, such as in the case of marriage, major changes have a powerful rippling effect.

A tomboy is transgender. By definition every crossdresser is transgender.

No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

From Susan Stryker, "In any case, it is the movement across a socially-imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place - rather than any particular destination or mode of transition."

It is my understanding that being trans is an identity. So just because someone transgresses gender norms doesn't mean they're transgender. Unless they see themselves as being so. YMMV.

[Madame George]

As to your original question.

My question is : Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices themselves that require us to leave?

I don't see either as a choice. It just sounds like both of your needs have changed and so the choices you made in the past are no longer applicable.

Does blame really need to be assigned? Is that going to help either of you?

Is absolving either of you of any wrongdoing going to make the decisions you are facing as a couple any easier?

[Satrana]

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

Kelli, I congratulate you on seeing through the blame game that your wife is playing. Everyone likes to think that they are a good person so when there is a point of dispute the natural reaction is to organize the argument to place the blame and responsibility onto the shoulders of the other party. We all do this, so this is not a criticism of your wife per se, rather it is a recognition of human psychology. Her positioning is designed to relieve her of the stress that she is the one who has the problem over accepting your needs and she is thinking about breaking up the relationship.

As you point out she has a right to think this way but she is not able to state the truth and chooses to dodge the bullet. Avoiding the shame of being the initiator/oppressor is a favorite game and you can see examples of the silly excuses conjured up in this very thread.

Also congratulations for not buying into the guilt trap that many members here exhibit. This notion that a wife has a right to a manly man, the notion that who you are is frozen in time from the day of your marriage....it is all hogwash. There is absolutely nothing wrong or harmful about dressing in clothes to reflect your feelings. Some people cannot accept this simple fact and so insist on punishing themselves and others in the same situation by saying it is the CD's duty to sacrifice their own happiness for that of their partners. That is not marriage, that is servitude.

People change constantly and it is up to others to decide if they want to stay on the same train as you or jump off. They have the right to that choice even if it is based on ignorance and prejudice. Unfortunately there is no way to force enlightenment onto others so they right thing to do is accept your partner's decision if that is what makes them happy. Ideally they should be truthful enough to state their issues and give you the freedom to decide whether you want to change course. It is hard but it is fair.

[Satrana]

No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

If you stick with your description then most CDs are not transgendered either. Indeed only a small percentage of the members here could call themselves transgendered. Yet clearly their feelings would be labeled as transgenderness.

The word transgendered means to exhibit characteristics associated with the opposite sex. Hence tomboys most certainly do fall under that description except they generally behave differently from MTF CDS by not engaging in closet induced fantasies and emulations. But then many CDs dont do that either.

It is more accurate to say that tomboys are the female equivalent to MTF CDs except that in their case tomboy behavior is widely tolerated by society and carries no terrible stigma hence tomboys do not enter into a closeted mode with all its side effects. The result is that most people never consider tomboys to be transgendered because it is known that it is not an indicator of transsexuality or homosexuality precisely because it is not closeted. It is also a consideration of the fact that women gain status by developing their masculine side unlike MTF CDS who lose status.

These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

[ReineD]

Avoiding the shame of being the initiator/oppressor is a favorite game and you can see examples of the silly excuses conjured up in this very thread.

Transition is a fundamental change in identity. Grieving the loss of the husband you fell in love with is not a game or a silly excuse. And denial is a stage of grief.

People change constantly and it is up to others to decide if they want to stay on the same train as you or jump off. They have the right to that choice even if it is based on ignorance and prejudice. Unfortunately there is no way to force enlightenment onto others so they right thing to do is accept your partner's decision if that is what makes them happy. Ideally they should be truthful enough to state their issues and give you the freedom to decide whether you want to change course. It is hard but it is fair.

I agree that a partner has a choice as to whether she wants to stay in the relationship after her husband informs her he intends to transition, and if not immediately, eventually she will come to realize it is also her choice to leave the marriage, but to accuse her of being ignorant, prejudiced and not enlightened discounts her heterosexuality. Not every woman is able to alter her sexuality or live in a platonic marriage to accommodate a transsexual partner.

These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

There are many women who wear pants for convenience. They do not think of themselves as being androgynous or a tomboy. Also, there are many fathers today who also go outside their assigned gender roles by sharing in the household chores and who care for and nurture their children as actively as their wives. Some couples even decide he should stay home while she develops her career. Would you also compare these men to CDs and consider them to be transgendered?

[Madame George]

If you stick with your description then most CDs are not transgendered either. Indeed only a small percentage of the members here could call themselves transgendered. Yet clearly their feelings would be labeled as transgenderness.

No, a CD who is dressing as the opposite sex in an attempt to be perceived/treated/experienced as that sex is the very essence of the definition. Women who are labeled or identify as a tomboy are most often not trying to be perceived/treated/experienced as a male. Instead, it is an expression of their own unique femininity. Again, being trans is an identity.

Also, transgenderness is not a word.

The word transgendered means to exhibit characteristics associated with the opposite sex.

Um... no. See above.

It is more accurate to say that tomboys are the female equivalent to MTF CDs except that in their case tomboy behavior is widely tolerated by society and carries no terrible stigma hence tomboys do not enter into a closeted mode with all its side effects. The result is that most people never consider tomboys to be transgendered because it is known that it is not an indicator of transsexuality or homosexuality precisely because it is not closeted. It is also a consideration of the fact that women gain status by developing their masculine side unlike MTF CDS who lose status.

As a former long-term tomboy I can attest that there are certainly social repercussions for tomboys. Also, it is not known that being a tomboy is not an indicator of being transgendered. They are separate identities, but AFAIK any correlations between them have never been tested.

These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

The scary thing is you are completely serious about this. Women being able to wear pants had nothing to do with wanting to be men. Wearing pants wasn't the good part of being a man. It was, rather, symbolic of the "good parts". You know, like voting, owning property, and you know having rights beyond what hat to wear.

[Kelli Michelle]

Karen, as I had said, this thread was never meant to be about me per se. I was just starting the ball rolling, so to speak, by relating how my thought process got started, in a conversation with my wife. I thought I was pretty clear from the get-go on that and repeated it. Once it transformed into a lot about me, I went ahead and gave out my situation.

I am sorry you are upset that I didn't respond directly to your post. By the time I was next online, there were several posts. To respond to every point, in every single post would have taken me forever.

And, yes, I was amazed at the direction the thread had gone. Of course, this happens all the time, in almost every thread---still it was interesting. I don't think it takes a super intelligence to figure out what my questions were asking, really. Sorry to disagree. It sorta seemed that a lot of people got it, at least mostly. Frankly, it didn't even matter if they did. There were valid discussions about lots of things that matter to TGs.

Anyway, sorry not to respond to all those that posted her. I have read every post and appreciate the comments.

Peace!!!!!

[Karen564]

Kelli,
No problem, I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else, were all sisters here one way or the other, and you don't need to be sorry either, because I wasn't really wasn't all that upset.
And I Did understand that this wasn't just about You per say, as you clearly stated in post #16, but that's about the only part I did get..LOL..

The way I saw your thread was, you are in a situation with your spouse about TG issues, and were looking for other members take on how they felt or would handle if they were put into that situation with their spouse or family members.

I said the questions you asked were confusing to me because of the way you worded it, and the reason I say that, is because it's rather too vague for me, in other words, to answer those questions would depend on many, many different circumstances, so know one can really give a cut & dry answer to it, and can only answer it based on their own particular circumstances,
which most likely will differ from yours or another persons.

This why I was asking you in particular about Your circumstances, because without that, I otherwise viewed you questions pointless and too vague.

So I gave an somewhat generic view in my post, and based it on what I was interpreting(obviously wrong) from what you did write, so used that as an example only. but could apply to anyone that's younger knowing they have TG issues now and contemplating going into a marriage for their 1st time, and thought this may help someone avoid a situation later on down the road.

But Overall, I think it turned out as a wonderful thread though, because it shows how we view what a relationship is all about, and how relationships can evolve in time, some grow into stronger & better ones, and some not so good, and that goes for any relationship, and to introduce an issue such as CD'g or anything not considered the norm into it, is certainly a true test for any relationship.

As far as my own relationship with the same woman for 25 years, 20 of those married and with 2 children, I wish I could turn the clock Way back, because I know I would of handled my own life completely differently based on what I have learned and finally come to terms with today. So it is very true that with age comes wisdom but only because we have lots of experience and have mad lots of mistakes in our past. I sure know I have.

Bats, when you grow up and actually have some more time under your belt, you will see your very wrong about relationships and marriage, because you sound like some college bookworm that just reads stats all day, but has no true experience what a real relationship is all about.

And where did you read that 1 in 3 women get raped?? some 3rd world nation maybe, but not here in USA.

I'm just a dumb blond, LOL..
Karen

[Emily Anderson]

Kelli,

I think the problem here is that is is not a choice, at least not one which one could take easily. For most CD's, at least those who started at an early age, it is an integral part of their personality, and therefore to stop CD'ing would be severely limiting their personal development.

One could of course stop CD'ing for the sake of keeping the peace, or making an altruistic sacrifice for the benefit of others, but "at the end of the day" it's your life too, and you need to decide want you want most.

[battybattybats]

Really, this is a right the feminists fought for? When? Honestly, in ALL of my gender and womens studies classes, this is the first I've heard of it. Oh, and as a stickler for the details, I would appreciate citation/documentation.

It was involved in the broad reforms of marriage, amongst the right to own seperate property the right to control over reproduction and consent to sex, the right to a doctors confidentiallity so that a husband was not informed of their every medical decision nor could contravene their medical choices especially regarding contraception and other reproduction issues.

Sorry I cant give you sources but I no longer own the books on the subject. Nevertheless it was very much involved in self-determination, in legal confidentiality from that of lawyers including divorce lawyers, doctors etc.

As when a husband was legally able to access all information about their wives then all manner of inequities occured and women were unable often to protect their own personal assets etc. So defending a right to personal privacy was vital for property and reproductive and health issues of womens rights.

Are you really sure about this? I noticed your location was Australia, so are you speaking as an Aussie? Just so you know, this is not true in The States. Children, under the age of 18 living with their parents do not have a right to privacy under the law. Spouses also do not have a right to privacy under the law. The state thing used to be true, but then we had this lovely little thing called the Patriot Act happen and that blew that right to hell and back.

The right exists as a matter of philosophical principle as well as codified in many professional ethics obligations irrespective of legal recognition of said. For example a child of an abusive parent will usually get confidentiality from a doctor or lawyer so that the parent is not informed that the child has sought help untill they have been able to get out of the parents control. You may like to read up on things like the United Nations Convention of the Rights of Children etc.

Again, citation/documentation.

Iirc I put the link on the forum once before, from a comment by a sexologist. But I didn't keep the link beyond that. As for numbers of TSs which is neccessary for said comparison I was going by Lynn Conway's figures on TS prevalance.

Did anyone here, CD, TS, or partner say that they were *ALWAYS* honest to everyone about everything? Here's the rub. Communication and honesty are IMHO two of the most important aspects needed in a trans relationship. A CD or TS has issues with their gender and, believe it or not, that has effects on their partner's gender as well. If we're not willing to talk about how we feel to each other, then how are we to be able to empathize with someone we profess to love?

Oh I agree that in general that is the best course of action and in all things communication is vital to a fiar and healthy relationship. However, the expectation that everyone is capable emotionally, psychologically to be so brave, so vulnerable, so trusting is just not valid! As the many examples of the victims of rape shows! People who go through life being forced by public scorn and condemnation or the fear of same to hide part of themselves are just not always so capable!

A rape-survivor may have sexual and intimacy and mental-health issues of a profound nature that very often does have serious impacts on the marriage and on the family! Butit is just not fair to expect them to be capable of overcoming the fear and shame and guilt and pain they feel to confess that from the outset! Sure some can. But many cannot! For many it takes years of growing trust and feellings of safety within a relationship for them to feel capable of disclosing such information!

And the same phenomenon can be found in other oppressed/traumatised groups and other relationships. Whether it's someone confessing they are gay/lesbian/bi to parents, people confessing they have become athiest to wives/parents/children etc there are many many issues where such things are not easy to reveal. The more stigmatised the thing and the closer the relationship, the more traumatised and scared the person and the more expectations they feel to others the harder it is to confess such a thing!

Being a CD does not suddenly become an exception to this.

You're absolutely right. I would add, if we're talking about someone doing body modifications or something that would effect their spouse or relationship, they also have the right to expect a very abrupt ending to their relationship.

Absolutely not! One never has a right to expect any fair and free choice of another, merely respect it! Gaining weight is body modification that can effect a relationship. Getting plastic surgery, tattoos, piercings, haircuts, gastric bypasses, hair transplants etc etc... all body-modifictions that can effect a relationship. And just as no-one has the right to demand a spouse get a boob-job, an abortion, have a child, lose weight etc then the opposite is also true and they have no right to demand they do not!

Yes a person may state what they would rather their spouse do. But the final say is the person whose body it is from a haircut to childbirth! And sure the spouse may decide that they do not love their partner enough to respect their choice/need and is free to leave as any spouse should always be free to leave for any reason at any time to make staying conditional on getting their own way over their partner is emotional blackmail and direct clear abuse!

So sure, if someones partner decides to leave because they have not obeyed their wishes of course that choice must be respected. But it needs to always be respected as an option for both partners in the first place. Someone may choose to fit in with a partners wishes and its often good for both to do that to a point. But the final say over the individuals body is that of the individual. And using threats of leaving is controlling, it is coercive, it is abuse.

No matter how you rationalize it, people don't exist in vacuums. When we get into relationships we open our lives up to someone else, and they to us. When that relationship becomes long-term, such as in the case of marriage, major changes have a powerful rippling effect.

Of course. But that does not give others a right of veto or control over others.

No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

From Susan Stryker, "In any case, it is the movement across a socially-imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place - rather than any particular destination or mode of transition."

It is my understanding that being trans is an identity. So just because someone transgresses gender norms doesn't mean they're transgender. Unless they see themselves as being so. YMMV.

A Genderqueer person is just being themselves too. One could use that statement for all of TG. A transsexual is beung themselves, it is just that to do so they must modify their anatomy to be in accordance with their self-identity.

There is indeed Transgender Identity but that is not all there is to the term transgender. Plenty of words have an academic meaning seperate from their social one! People could be catagorised as Transgender before the term came into usage. So it is more than an identity but also a descriptive catagory. It easilly can be both and used as either or both. Transgender can mean beyond gender as well as changing that which pertains to, and is catagorised by relation to, the sexes.

And a thing can be defined by what it is opposite to too, so that all people who face discrimination because of gender expectation non-conformity very much are alike and as tomboys often face this as they enter their teens so too do they face gender-expression-bias. Which then makes them catagorisable as Trans-Gender regardless of self-identity.

Regarding women and pants:

C'mon folks, this is history we are talking about here! Both are right and plenty of examples can be found! Yes there was the practicality arguments! Women demanded the right to wear pants to be more able to flee attackers and rapists. They demanded them so they could ride bicycles and thus have independant mobility and not be dependant on men for their transportation too. But there were also many who wore mens clothes as fashion! There were famous women who dressed in mens clothes as political statements or because they liked to do so. The French Lesbian scene which had a profound part to play on the emerging womens rights movement involved a lot of crossdressing!

So many of the pioneers of womens pants wearing were crossdresing women and many were not! And one can see fashions being advertised even today as 'menswear for women' so it is clearly the case that plenty of women like wearing masculine clothes partly because they are masculine. And I have butch lesbian friends who love wearing pinstripe suits and having male haircuts who very much fit that bill as well as a Straight Cis GG friend who loves wearing mens clothes and even playing a male sexual role with her partner!

Bats, when you grow up and actually have some more time under your belt, you will see your very wrong about relationships and marriage, because you sound like some college bookworm that just reads stats all day, but has no true experience what a real relationship is all about.

I'm almost 33, my last relationship lasted almost 6 years and involved mental health issues (hers, much of which involved only-partially-disclosed childhood trauma) was abusive (on her part, mostly as a consequence of her mental health issues). Just because I have gained objective knowledge does not mean I have no subjective experiential knowledge. And most importantly the latter is always less valid than the former because it is filled with subjective bias!

And where did you read that 1 in 3 women get raped?? some 3rd world nation maybe, but not here in USA.

Its the current (last I heard) often-reported-in-the-media stat for Australia! And I'd be surprised if America is really that beter. Got the stats for the USA?

There is plenty of evidence that the number of males is actually much higher because while both rarely report their abuse males are much less likely to do so especially if the perpetrator was female! I know several men who'd been raped or suffered attempted rape by women.

Much more than the men i know had been raped by men, which numbers just one and the perpetrator was a priest. I also know a woman in her late 50's who was raped by a nun at a catholic boarding school. Another female friend has been raped three times in her life and isn't quite 30. And i learned this week that one friend had been raped by 7 people at different occassions, one repeatedly over several years.. and she's not even 20!

The point is most of these people do not tell others about this! So even those I've been told about are likely the tip of the iceberg!