How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?

[Nicki B]

To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..

And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental. Divisions between ourselves help none of us.

[Melora]

I dont even know if my answer will get through to You after all of the previous answers, before me..
No I have not read them ALL either.. I do not need to...
The answer is simple..
A TG = Is Any person who dresses as the other.. = Umbrella term
Crossdresser = Is Any person who dresses as the other = Umbrella term
Transvestite = Onr who showes in Puplic that S/HE is a TG/CD
Transexuale= One who Changes ones sex..
Also
DragQueen = One who CDs for ARE and Entertainment.
Katie

[pruella]

To me, someone who cross-dresses fits under the umbrella term 'transgender'..

Very much so, especially when you review the entomology!

Goes for the Girls who dress as men too!

And can we PLEASE not use the word 'just' so much - it's unnecessarily judgemental.

B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!

I say 'had' cause their wives or girlfriends or worse, daughters, are vicious evil antisocial creatures who take these nice expressive people on shopping trips and outings, leave us 'friends' wondering if they have been kidnapped!

I am DREADING my daughters getting old enough to DEMAND shopping trips. They already drag me around and insist I try things on all the time! Even my wife can be damn annoying at times!

No one ever did that before I started transition.

[Nicki B]

B,b,but I've got, hmm maybe that's had, some great friends who are 'just men in womens clothes' and proud of it!

If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.

That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?

[pruella]

If they want to use the term about themselves, fine - the problem always comes when labels are applied to others and when a 'hierarchy' is implied.

But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.

Woman in Menswear is just as common, but just not so noticed.

I just truly wish all the 'private' CDs would get out into the street and make that end of the spectrum as visible and celebrated as possible.

My daughter was watching a show on TV yesterday about the Roman era. The Men were all in DRESSES - so she said!

But that aside, we came back to the different between a CD and a TS.

My personal expression is well stated about about CD.

A TS has physiological issues to deal with, clothes do NOT make a TS, they merely ease a symptom of social indoctrination.

I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale.

I can't imagine what it's like being on that intersect. I think many TS's pass through that intersect as they evolve, but getting stuck on it - well here there is the question of this topic.

We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

More discussion is needed to guide people who hit that cross road. I just don't know what I can add because my experience of such is extremely limited and I feel most people want to fall into a bucket, rather than be stuck in the middle.

Maybe if we focus on making that intersection a happy place to be, that doesn't require confusion or 'decision' making to 'validate' oneself and their place, the issue of "Am I a TS or a CD" will go away of it's own, allowing those who are at the further ends of the spectrum ro travel as they go.

That has always caused unnecessary hurt and disharmony in this community?

Read your posting to me elsewhere and agree totally on the inventing of something to avoid prejudice. That is what I have and continue to support.

It hurts those who are vulnerable a lot less when EVERYONE speaks the same language.

I think this topic in it's own is a variant on that issue.

[sandra-leigh]

I've also said many times before the border between a 'high level CD' and a 'low level TS' is so crossed that a person on that intersection may be far more confused and distressed than a CD or a TS a few inches away on their own scale. [...]

We can express the 'outer extremes' and identify that there is a scale and an intersection, but I suspect the OP was more concerned about their position STUCK in the intersection and looking for a direction - Four Roads - go back, turn left, turn right or go straight ahead.

Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.

However, some of the other recent postings by other posters have assumed that "transgender" means only "CD or TS".
And what you wrote has implicit in it that "Crossdressing is over here, and TS is over there, and you might be moving between the two, but there is only CD City and TS City and the Road" -- which at least adds in "the road" into the possibilities.

When I posted originally and in my follow-ups, I tried to be careful to distinguish between "transgender" (yes, an umbrella term) and "transsexual", as I am considering the possibility that I am one of the several forms of "transgender" who are not "transsexual". But for whatever reason, we really don't hear much about those other forms of transgender on this forum. Just look at how many of the New Member Introductions say that growing up they used to think that they were the only ones who ever did those things, and then reflect on how I must feel to come to this, one of the largest transgender forums in the world, and find even most of the people here only know of CD and TS, and I'm having to break my own trails off into Here Be Monsters territory by myself.

I don't know what I am. Maybe it would be easier if I just adopted "gender enhanced person" and left it at that. But reflect back to my original question of "What do I tell my mother?" -- "gender enhanced person" isn't very informative. At this point in my life, telling my mother that I was a "gender confused person" would probably be more accurate.

I don't feel like I am "transsexual": I've never had that sense that I was "born in the wrong body", I don't yearn for my lost girlhood, dolls are just "things" to me (I did go through the phase of little plastic Cowboys and Indians, though, and on the balance my sympathies were with the Indians.) Yes, I did sometimes play with the girls at recess, but that wasn't because I felt like I was one of them: it had more to do with the guys deciding that I wasn't one of the "guy crowd". (I don't remember any of them who actually disliked me, but if you are bright and generally non-athletic and not "cool" and not the class clown... well, at that age, being ignored is social torment enough.)

I don't feel that I am "two-spirited", at least not in the meaning of having substantially distinct male and female personalities and switching between the two of them.

I might perhaps be technically "androgynous", but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)


But returning more directly to the original question: here in the forum, we have relatively good ideas of what "crossdresser" is, and of what "transsexual" is, but all those other possibilities are largely Terra Incognita. If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?


In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar, my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing. But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?



Addendum:

I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, far more than I would have expected. If other people are finding themselves struggling with similar issues but do not feel comfortable posting about it, I welcome PMs. In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.

Also, I found an earlier thread in this sub-forum on a closely related topic,
"How do you know?" started in May 2008 by Andre85. I haven't had time to read through all if it quite yet.

[pruella]

Thanks, Pruella, somehow I feel that what you wrote is getting closer to what I (the original poster) am talking about.

Welcome

but I am socialized to that implying more absence of distinguishing male or female characteristics, rather than possessing both, with "hermaphodite" implying the possession of both male and female characteristics (but "hermaphodite" is perhaps too strong for my situation.)

Not that simple. 'Hermaphrodite' isn't just characteristics, it's physiological not psychological. Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.

Just on the 'Transgender' term, I think people use it to either avoid falling into a box, between boxes or who are in denial of their true box, whilst trying to adopt another but avoiding being flamed for faking what they are not!

<snip> If one does not feel that one is Transsexual (in the sense of "really" being a member of "the other" sex), then how does one know if one's feelings are within the "normal range" of "crossdressers" or if one is instead within one of the other less-known categories?

Well that leaves you with:

Androgynous
Transvestite (Sexual fetish)
Intersexed
Queer
Genderbender

You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time

Intersexed you either know, don't know or need to be tested. Most IS people never know.

Andro - maybe. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel neither Male or Female, or even feel you enjoy both aspects, then do just that - enjoy both.

Some Ando people I know go to work as a Man, live at home as a Woman and split the genders between two or more social circles. Too complicated for me

In comparing myself to others in my social club, and seeing my willingness to "gender-bend", to be openly "a guy in a skirt" or similar,

Scottish Men wear skirts all the time! [*ducks*]

Romans and Gladiators wore them too. So did Kings and Knights

my tentative conclusion is that I am probably not within the typical range of crossdressing.

Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude

Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day

But on the other hand, I'm not always clear on where cross-dressing ends and where TS begins: for example, if I were to become "24/7" non-op non-hormone "live as a woman", would that be definitely TS or would that be within the "typical range of crossdressing" or would that be a different category.... ?

I think you example would put you on the border of CD/TS and either have people very confused, or you could be confused.

Of course, you might not be confused and sit on that overlap of the circles of the CD and the TS group.

I think your only confusion is trying to find a term to describe you that is 'accepted' and 'defined' socially.

This is something you probably need to decide more than us define for you. Cross Dresser is simplest At least it doesn't carry the 'sex' element.

I noticed that this topic is being followed by quite a number of readers, <snip> In particular, I'd be interesting in hearing from people who self-identify as something other than the CD or TS, even if you (like me) don't know what quite what it is that you do self-identify as.

I think anyone feeling like that should just press 'Reply' and rattle on for at least 250 words!

At least then we might find some foundation, or even 'worse' we might coin a new term!

No one seems to 'bite' in this segment of the site (thank god) and I keep saying Crossdressers are nice people who distance themselves from the very confusing 'TV' term that could mean a range of things - it seems - depending on where you are!

[sandra-leigh]

You don't sound like a genderbender, but then again maybe you are, in which case get out there and bend! At least the next TS to follow you will have an easier time [...]


Genderbenders are *rolls eyes* Crossdressers with attitude

Kinda like Punk or Goth is to normal people. It's all clothes at the end of the day

I suspect that what you refer to as "genderbender" is perhaps the term I know alternatively as "genderqueer" or (in its more militant form) "genderf*ck". A couple of my acquaintances (met a few times, good friends of several of the club members) do "tough drag" -- really crazy clothes, drag shows in beards (even if it requires pasting on glitter to imitate beards if they don't happen to have one at the time.) Our fellow forum member Buffalo Bill deliberately goes out in skirt and big beard and has no interest in getting rid of the beard: now that's a real challenge to traditional culture. I don't think he does it to shock, though, and I admire that he is "being himself".... so perhaps that technically places him as "genderqueer" but not as "genderf*ck" (which implies more using gender to make a scene.)

I do "gender-bend", at least in the meaning that would be used around where I live -- that is, I do go out in mixed gender mode, such as with my male face and hair (probably with little or no makeup), but wearing a skirt, or wearing a dress... and quite likely wearing forms (C or DD or even G -- while still facially a guy.) Lots of people have seen me that way -- e.g., less than a week ago, I went like that to the "premiere" shopping mall in the city towards late afternoon (fair number of people), and didn't care who noticed that the person wearing the long gray wool skirt was {apparently} male.

A year ago, I took a couple of flights between some of Canada's busiest airports -- and I traveled in long skirts, forms and blouses... on the way back, the blouse was one with "pockets" at the bust, so it was obvious that I (a male) had a "bust". The airlines and safety authority had no trouble with me being like that, and most of the people in the airports didn't pay attention, not even when I was in the male washroom. I got some smiles, and I didn't get any frowns, and some people did small courtesies for me that wouldn't normally be done for males. I wasn't attempting to "fool" anyone, and I got treated with kindness.

I often get treated with kindness when I go out as a guy with something obviously feminine, even when the most obvious "tell" is just my bra showing through my shirt (yeah, including sometimes deliberately on my part, like wearing a white bra under a thin near-white blouse so that the shape will be obvious.)

So in the sense of "genderbender" as someone who deliberately mixes male and female signals, especially female clothes without disguising my head as female, then Yup, I do that. Wearing a simple skirt to the grocery store or off on errand or to the farmer's market feels natural to me. I have an easier time with more or less solid colours: Fancier skirts, more ornate, more flowery, or puffy or multi-layered, or more eye-catching... those are a lot harder for me to wear as a guy (but I would wear my plain black pencil skirt as a guy.) There is a mental filter somewhere in me, that something like a jeans skirt is just a skirt, that a guy like me can wear one and not mean anything by it (other than that he is willing to challenge convention a little), but that some skirt designs are decidedly "female" skirt designs, things that I could wear if I am completely Dressed, but not when I am "a guy". Sometimes I challenge myself by wearing something a bit outside my comfort range (a tactic that worked wonderfully for me for tights under my work or public clothes, that got me well past the idea that all I could wear was plain black or plain brown "which could be mistaken for socks")


If I am not wearing a tight sweater, wearing my DD
forms "as a guy" doesn't make me feel out of place... if anyone notices them, that's fine with me because it feels like the augmented shape is pretty much the shape that I should have, and that what people see there is more the "real me" than if I don't have the forms. When I'm out in public (not at work), even apparently dressed as a guy, a DD to G bust on me is somehow a truth rather than a lie or a fakery... that shape is part of me -- maybe not something I "flaunt" as a guy, but something like, "Heck, let 'em notice, it's just me and they might as well get used to it."


Thus, I differ from a lot of cross-dressers in that I do not train to seem to be as much of a woman as can be acted: having someone know that I am (more or less) a male is not a problem to me, at least not when I am in that mood -- though I'm sure not about to lose sleep over the possibility that I might have somehow convinced someone that the person they saw was female. I don't mind being thought to be female -- but at the same time, I am not ashamed that someone might know full well that I am (apparently) male and see me in female clothes with an (apparent) bust. Darn right that "he" wears womens' clothes.

And I've met so many people that think I look good in women's clothes, and whom look forward to seeing what I'll wear next. How could I disappoint my fans?

[Nicki B]

CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS Clothes usually make the CD.

It may not always be that clear-cut.

Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want.

Have you ever, as IS, felt you were dysphoric?

Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS

Just because people don't express themselves fulltime, it doesn't mean they only feel that way part-time; it's always dangerous to generalise, or to label others?

I asked the question in a seminar to people mostly not exposed to the TG spectrum on Monday "What is a Woman?"

The answers I got back were all pretty much "The ability to bear a child"

Ouch! Maybe time for a thread

If you're going to tell a genetic woman who can't have children that she's 'not a woman', please let me know so I can make sure I'm not around at the same time...

Intersexed is a better term and Intersexed XX/XY would be possibly the most accurate. (That's me BTW!) It's not a lot of fun either.

So are you a chimera/mosaic? How did you come to find out?

Or are you XXY or XXXY?

[Nicki B]

But it IS a valid description and IT IS acceptable when used in correct context. 'Cross Dressing' IS only a person of one gender who expresses an appearance of the other gender, usually going to a LOT of effort to do so, with a lot of pride behind the process.

My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?

But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?

IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?

[pruella]

My particular problem was with the use of the word 'just' - it implies lesser, as if those who identify as CD, or even 'men in frocks' don't also suffer as a result?

I thought it was taken for granted that a Crossdresser coming out is no more or less difficult than a TS coming out!

CDs in my view are no more or less than a TS, just entirely different. I think most TS would agree "if only I could just wear Opposite Gender clothes and feel relaxed or less fatigued" but I'm afraid as Karen has said, and I've said - clothes do not make the TS Clothes usually make the CD.

That doesn't make either any more or less.

But 'Cross Dressing' simply describes a behaviour - I think it's an erroneous assumption to believe that it is never linked to a degree of gender dysphoria?

Gender Dusphoria is such a weird term. Crossdressing is a psychological need, maybe sometimes a want. Psychology is behavior, but don't let that mean that 'therapy' will cure someone. Crossdressing isn't something that needs to be cured. Most CDs I know, it's a hobby, or a past time, or just an expression of mood and feeling.

I've also said some go to a lot of effort too, sometimes more than a TS!

IME, GD comes in different levels (and forms, which may or may not be mixed together). There is no simple binary, of CD or TS - there is a spectrum of feelings and behaviours?

TS isn't so much behavior. CD I think would be both feeling and behavior. CDers might be as simple as 'around the house' like anyone wears PJs all day. Others might like the lime light of being Famous in the Public Eye.

Unlike a TS. A TS can't be 'part time' it's and all or none situation. Someone could be Androgynous TS, whishing to change genital structure, but still retain the expression of both genders. Just like an IS