We live in the Stone Age still...

[TxKimberly]

Well, a simple explanation comes to my mind.

Every group you mention that was once treated poorly stood up, worked, and fought for their current status.

Women fought for their right to vote, they had to fight their own sons, husbands, and fathers, and lord help us, they even had to fight other women.
African Americans fought a much longer and bloodier battle, standing up and demanding their rights, and demanding that the United States live up to the ideals of it's constitution.
The Jews? It took a nation that tried to exterminate them to wake us up and slap the stupid out of us. It took the horror of the concentration camps and the horror of the very concepts involved before people decided they didn't want to be associated with that kind of thinking.
Homosexuality - Very much like the women, they fought for their rights and recognition, the Homosexuals stood up for themselves.

Now we reach the topic of the Transgendered. Yes I know that there are some out there working diligently for us, but they are few - very few. Most of us are hiding, not willing to participate in our own future for fear of being exposed. This is what BattyBattyBats keeps trying to subtly remind us all of. If you want the world to change about the way they treat and perceive us, we need to stop counting on others to carry our flag and fight our battles.
WE need to stand up
WE need to let people know that there are far more of us than they thought.
We are their neighbors, husbands, friends, and co-workers.
We know that we are a HUGE segment of the population. If we all decided "Damn it, that's enough of this!" and stood together, the world would change instantly.

[sometimes_miss]

Kimberly wrote:

Now we reach the topic of the Transgendered. Yes I know that there are some out there working diligently for us, but they are few - very few. Most of us are hiding, not willing to participate in our own future for fear of being exposed. This is what BattyBattyBats keeps trying to subtly remind us all of. If you want the world to change about the way they treat and perceive us, we need to stop counting on others to carry our flag and fight our battles.
WE need to stand up
WE need to let people know that there are far more of us than they thought.
We are their neighbors, husbands, friends, and co-workers.
We know that we are a HUGE segment of the population. If we all decided "Damn it, that's enough of this!" and stood together, the world would change instantly.

Uh, instantly? Nope. Not likely to happen. Didn't work out that way for any of the other groups either, and besides, many of them are still discrimated against.

Me, I spent my entire childhood being constantly picked on, frequently beaten. I always had to keep one eye looking over my shoulder to see if there was someone about to hit me for no particular reason other than because they could. Do I want to live the rest of my life the same way just so I can 'help the cause?' No thanks. As an adult, I had the birthmark removed that made me the target of so much scorn when I was a kid. I'm not about to use crossdressing to place another target firmly on my back.
I'm exhausted enough just trying to get through the day as it is. In every revolution, there are leaders, followers, and just the many who are willing to support the ideas presented. Count me as one of the latter.

As far as us being and 'advanced' society, well, only in relation to the animal societies on earth. Viewed from a distance, this planet is a mess. A hundred different countries, different rulers, different languages, warfare being conducted constantly throughout history, racial and ethnic extermination still going on, rich rulers doing unconscionable things to their employees and customers in every single nation, selling toxic products, conspiring to cheat each other on grand scales, I can go on and on. No, we are not an 'advanced' society. Not even close.

[Kate Simmons]

Suppose the "worm" suddenly turned and the governments said that they would recognize the TG community and guarantee all of our rights? The only requirement on our part would be for us to come out openly so they would know who we are. I have the feeling that some would still have reservations doing that, especially those with SO's and families because while the "rights" may be guaranteed, safety from the potential "fall out" is not. There is always a hefty price to be paid in connection with recognition and equality. Even if riding on the coat tails of others, it has to be a personal decision on how to proceed and that is what makes being TG problematic.

[victoriamwilliams1]

I think by us going out in the public eye and sowing a positive view of our community that people are staring to accept us. One of the things I notice is that if you act comfortable people in my case look then go about what they where doing. I noticed this when I was standing in line at sears last month. For me I am near 7ft in heels.

[Tora]

Don't look to our elected offical for help. They sell their soles to the highest bidder and look for scape goats to use as smoke screens to distract attention from their dishonorable deeds. I am afraid that many of us would loose employment, family, too easily from a low life with not much to gain.
Ruining a life is a sport in this country. CEO's get bonus money for cutting the payroll. It is the fight for short term profits, that is destroying our way of life.

[Alice Torn]

I think that, regardless, of whether the government accepts cd, or not, there is always a number of thugs, and other well meaning people, who will try to take advantage of us, hurt us, and make fun of us, as well, as some, who accept us, and many, most, who are indifferent. I would still always proceed with caution. Good thread!

[Karren H]

Yeah.... Welcome to the real world.... and since it's not going to change soon, better get used to it... adapt, conform and move on.... do what ever it takes and what ever you want... Life's too short to set around whining about stuff... There's plenty of shopping to do!!

[battybattybats]

Kimberly wrote:

Uh, instantly? Nope. Not likely to happen. Didn't work out that way for any of the other groups either, and besides, many of them are still discrimated against.

None did it! Women won the vote because of a small group of women, the suffragettes were hardly the majority of women!

If 10% of the population tomorrow was to publicly crossdress and demand their rights it would shake the world. 10% is enough to swing most elections. 10% is a major customer demographic. 10% is a huge cultural force. 10% is colossal.

In every revolution, there are leaders, followers, and just the many who are willing to support the ideas presented. Count me as one of the latter.

Sure, but what about donating 10% of your CD-clothes budget towards a CD inclusive TG rights group?

Yeah.... Welcome to the real world.... and since it's not going to change soon, better get used to it...

You assume that based on what? All sorts of people have changed the world. The world is constantly changing. So why shouldn't we try and change it? Especially when there are organised groups who are spreading lies and hate about us, they are trying to change the world and vote by vote and law by law they are starting to succeed. So why can't we change it too?

[sometimes_miss]

If 10% of the population tomorrow was to publicly crossdress and demand their rights it would shake the world. 10% is enough to swing most elections. 10% is a major customer demographic. 10% is a huge cultural force. 10% is colossal.

and

We know that we are a HUGE segment of the population.

Nope. Only a very small percentage. Even generous estimates peg us at around 2.5 percent, and roughly 20% of those are gay, who's support goes in a slightly different direction politically. So, we're certainly not huge, and we're not 10% of the population. Not even remotely close. And you're certainly not going to get every single crossdresser to come out and do this.

Sure, but what about donating 10% of your CD-clothes budget towards a CD inclusive TG rights group?

I already donate a good chunk of cash to woman and children's shelters, thanks. We all have our own charities.

All sorts of people have changed the world. The world is constantly changing. So why shouldn't we try and change it? Especially when there are organized groups who are spreading lies and hate about us, they are trying to change the world and vote by vote and law by law they are starting to succeed. So why can't we change it too?

Change takes time, and often a whole lot of effort. I'm not going to make changing the world's opinion of crossdressers my major focus in life. I have enough misery in my life without focusing further on the bad things for hours a day. There are a lot of other things I like to do rather than bang my head against the brick wall that is today's homophobic society.

[Shelly67]

Indeed I don't think much has changed either .
History repeats itself , and still we have'nt learnt or moved on from our past and its mistakes .
Except in one area . And I do not consider this a positive developement .
We are controlled by manufactured fear .
History repeats itself .

[Samantha Kelsey]

Women = we CAN get the vote
Black people = we WILL get equallity
Gays = we WILL get rights and recognition
Crossdressers (in general) = we CAN'T do it so I'll just stay hidden in my closet and carry on in secret, no one will know!!!

[trannie T]

We are an invisible minority. Very few of us have ventured beond the comfortable confines of the closet. There are no transgender rights organizations of any prominence. Even so, we have still made considerable progress in the last several years.
I am very aware that most of us would prefer to be anonymous regarding our crossdressing but there are still things wecan do to promote our cause.
Support those political candidates and ballot propositions that will support us.
When someone starts disparaging transgender behavior, speak up, you do not have to identify your self as transgendered to express your opinion.

[Sheila]

"society" (whoever that is!).

That be all of us included there then

What happens when we finally give and get acceptance from all segments? Well...then we pick out another group we don't like...like those damn genetic freaks with type O blood.

right why u picking on me now ................... go find somebody else to beat up ................... do you know how many of us O Neg there are ............... I am now feeling marginalized

If the majotity of you stopped feeling damned sorry for yourself and actually went out and interacted with Joe/Josie public you would find most of em would not give a damn about your dress ................... far more attention (negative) is given to far more groups than CDers, people with speech impediments, eye twitches, dwarfism, people in wheelchairs are all abused on a regular basis, not right but they get on and deal with it on a daily basis, time for you to as well

[vivianann]

Since coming out to everybody about my crossdressing, my life has become better because of it. opportunities are coming my way, I am happier, peaple are welcoming Vivian with open arms, peaple in my small home town and peaple in the big city seem to be accepting, yes I am sure that there are peaple out there who are against us being crossdressers, but you know what I could care less about those peaple because there are many more accepting peaple in my opinion, and the reason I say this is because of the many wonderful experiences in the last three yrs since I have come out in public.
The problem is we as a group are letting fear control our lives, which causes us to become bitter and to look at society as being some kind of mean monster. I do understand that there are those here in the forum who have families, and there wives and families needs should come before their desires to crossdress, to you I understand because you made a commitment to your wife when you married her, you need to honor those vows you took on your wedding day. . I know that there are many of us who can and should blaze a trail for those of us who cannot at this time, I for one am one of those who can make a difference for the crossdressing community, and I am out there almost everyday as Vivian in public educating peaple that we are not wierdos or freaks, I am showing them that we are normal, and we just like wearing clothes that makes us feel complete. The thing we need to do is dress age appropriate, and occasion appropriate, so peaple will not see a freak when they see us. By dressing appropriate peaple will see us as being respectful and in turn they will be more likely to be accepting, I know this because I am experiencing acceptance as a result of dressing appropriate and descent when out in public. It is not a perfect world out there, but it is far better than most peaple reallize. With all that I have said, we need to be careful where we go when we are enfemme, avoid dark area's, dont go to bars where there might be trouble, now get dressed and go out and have fun.
I risked losing my business because I came out, however my business has improved since I have come out, so there is hope out there my fellow sisters.

[battybattybats]

and

Nope. Only a very small percentage. Even generous estimates peg us at around 2.5 percent, and roughly 20% of those are gay, who's support goes in a slightly different direction politically. So, we're certainly not huge, and we're not 10% of the population. Not even remotely close. And you're certainly not going to get every single crossdresser to come out and do this.

The 10% figure came from other threads active around the time I posted that comment. I don't recall which at the moment though. Lynn Conway states the figure she uses of 1 in 50 is conservative rather than generous. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...revalence.html

(after a quick search I found this thread, though i don't think its the one I'm after http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=94136&page=4 but it still has 6% according to the Sanders Report )

As for not getting every single CD to come out, sure that will take a few generations likely, but thats not needed. Most Womens rights were won by a very small number of women.

I already donate a good chunk of cash to woman and children's shelters, thanks. We all have our own charities.

Good chance those shelters don't allow TG folk in them too. Leaving TG people at risk without any emergency accomodation. As needy as womans and childrens shelters are have you seen the data on homeless TG people?

Change takes time, and often a whole lot of effort. I'm not going to make changing the world's opinion of crossdressers my major focus in life. I have enough misery in my life without focusing further on the bad things for hours a day. There are a lot of other things I like to do rather than bang my head against the brick wall that is today's homophobic society.

Meanwhile this week I entered an artwork about violence bullying and discriminations against us into the local art comepetition, a mixed-media work featuring a photographic self-portrait in makeup but without foundation and without room for ambiguous interpretation, and then I joimed a room full of lawyers, professors and human rights advocates from my local area to ensure TG rights are in the local Human Rights Community Consultation Submission going to the government, with a very positive response from everyone. Oh and the meeting followed on from a town meeting I was involved in run by the local MP, an independant with substantial power, who I've been in correspondance with on TG Rights issues.

If the majotity of you stopped feeling damned sorry for yourself and actually went out and interacted with Joe/Josie public you would find most of em would not give a damn about your dress ................... far more attention (negative) is given to far more groups than CDers, people with speech impediments, eye twitches, dwarfism, people in wheelchairs are all abused on a regular basis, not right but they get on and deal with it on a daily basis, time for you to as well

Oh yes, because all those other groups get murdered at a far higher rate than abled people.... Why just January last year a 14 year old kid in a wheelchair got shot in the head inside a school classroom.. oh wait no they didn't, a non-white CD kid did! See thats the thing, different parts of society have more or less amounts of transphobia resulting in more safety and acceptance for wealthy white folk in certain places, while my gender non conforming Aboriginal cousin faces a lot more trouble.

Sorry but I also do some disability advocacy, and there were three other disability advocates at that Human Rights meeting last night one of whom has been working in the field for 50 years! And seriously, the disabled, like me, do get a rough deal but not remotely as rough as transgender does. For out African-American Transwomen, by official numbers of their prevalance in the population murder is the leading cause of death. And what about the study on bullying of TG kids at school?

So your claims that others have it worse are for the moment quite refuted. Except perhaps one could suggest certain small sub-groups amongst those with severe mental illness who get shot by the police a lot, often because they are weilding knives at the time and were turned away from hospitals earlier may possibly have a similar murder-rate to non-white TGs. If you pull up some figures on that it might be worth comparing. I'm always ready to be proven wrong.

[Satrana]

Lets not forget that the modern rights movements have only been around for 100 years or less. That is just 3 generations, but there have been massive strides towards equality and I have no doubt 100 years from now society will be markedly different. It may seem slow to us but in evolutionary terms, this is very rapid change.

Batty is right - there are more than enough TGs in this world to make a substantial change if only TGs would have the willpower and support not venture into the closet and internalise their transphobia. Maybe the internet will change this and the next generation will not hide who they are but be proud to stand tall and make the breakthrough.

One incidental piece of news to demonstrate this. In Thailand, where TGs are not frowned upon, a school made a survey of its 1600 pupils which included a gender question. 200 students reported they were TG (12.5%) and so the school now provided TG toilets.

Another story from Thailand - in the 1990s a men's team won their national volleyball competition. All the members were openly TG and spent their leisure time en femme. Their coach complained they spent more time practicing their make-up skills than practicing their volleyball. They became national celebrities and two movies were subsequently made about their lives which were also big hits in Thailand.

You see when TGs are not hiding, they can and do make a difference.

[Sheila]

I'm always ready to be proven wrong.

REALLY

Batty I appreciate that TG peeps are murdered, but not all of them are TG related despite what you think and yes Disabled peeps have been murdered for being disabled ................... the world is/is not as violent as you think it is ............ I know my world is not .......... you can lecture and throw as many stas about as you like ......... I concur with this staement

Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say.” .... William W. Watt

....... I for one will ignore your continual claims of agression against the TG community as you see it, but to each their own and if you are happy ito continue to drag up stories and stats to try to convince others that their lives and yours are in immenent danger so be it, there is nothing that I can do to disprove that to you, because you will not hear ......... I feel sorry for you I really do. I will continue in my blind faith it the overall goodness of humanity and with Debs willing co-operation step boldly into the world without fear of either of us or my kids being harmed because he is TG....... FOOL that I may be, but at least I am a blissfully happy one

Sheila


"A great many people think that polysyllables are a sign of intelligence."
- Barbara Walters

[sometimes_miss]

I think one thing we're forgetting is the backlash that also occurs when minorities become active. Example: while there were significant gains by the gay population, especially some states where their marriage was legalized, there were some places that reversed that decision by popular demand. Yes, the fight will go on, but don't for a minute expect everyone to just suddenly think that we're all just wonderful. Our opposition is also going to be 'active' as well. And it's not always surprising how many middle of the road people turn conservative when pretty much everyone else in their church and neighborhood all feel that way. I'm just saying, it's not going to be a picnic, and it's not going to happen fast.

[Dressing Jill]

Well evolution is slow.

My grandma is 94(still drives) I love to listen to her tell of the changes she has seen. It amazes me to here where she has come from. WOW we have come a long way in 94 yrs.

She is a native american Indian. She has never filed with the gov. She says she doesn't want to be put a gov. hit list. She is right.

Ok what would society be able to hate and politicians spend money on if there wasn't something to bytch about.

Could it be their low self esteem that drives them to hate so they fell good about themselves because in there minds they feel bigger or better than whatever it is they hate.

Talk about walls. The berlin wall came down the chinese wall is open. Now the U.S. is building a monster of a wall between our country and our neighbors. When are they going to get it.

Hugs

Jill

[Jessica Who]

You're right. For me, coming to terms and loving my crossdressing has actually made me more tolerant to other people's needs and a better overall person.