My mother taught me that women put their hands on their hips with the finger pointing BACK, thumb in front. Men put their hands on their hips with the fingers pointing forward, thumbs in back.
I would not put much faith in this. My mother taught me many things that are out of date now. Like a lady does NOT leave the house without her gloves. A lady ALWAYS wears a slip. A lady NEVER wears jeans. She cleaned the house in heels.
S
[SIZE="2"]That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think? We are the ones who are being discriminated against, and don’t forget it. If you’re “alternative” in some small way, such as crossdressing, or gay (like I am), it pays to be on the lookout for anyone who may do you harm. Not all manly males are looking for victims, but take it from me, it only makes sense to exercise caution. There is a thing called the pack mentality, you know. Gestures can tell a lot about what you’re up against. Males project their masculinity out there for all to see, and it’s not meant to be an invitation for talking about feelings. In case you haven’t noticed, the phrase, “What are you, a pussy?" Is on the lips of most men you will encounter, and it is either spoken or formed in the mind at the slightest indication of anything remotely sensitive. Men carry themselves a certain way because they feel they must, in an obvious attempt to fit in and appear secure in their masculinity. The OP only hints at what is going on out there. We are at risk, and any feminine characteristics we may enjoy are not tolerated by visible proponents of masculinity.[/SIZE]Originally Posted by Nick2Nikki
[SIZE="2"]I was thinking today about my father, and his group of fireman friends. Whenever they would get together, these overtly masculine males would stand near each other and talk about the location of certain fire hydrants – I’m not kidding. If I was near the action, I would pick up a not-too-subtle message of male insecurity. How? Well, I could hear it. The men would have their hands in their pockets, jingling their change loudly, somewhere quite near the...well, you know. These men never crossed their arms, never put their hands on their hips, but the cacophony of clanking coins said it all in terms of gesture. Another thinly disguised male “comparison” ritual, usually accompanied by frequent unnecessary spitting. I didn’t want to be, but I was THERE...[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]The accents can be found in the character map (System Tools), my dear, along with: £æ¾¶¥ç©§¬±÷°¹öߢ and a few others, so just copy and paste. I write these things on a PC...
To answer your second question, I was literally standing, hands placed on hips, talking to my sister, and I became aware of that gesture and it’s...significance. As they say here in the U.S., I couldn’t NOT write about it! These questions fill my mind at all times... [/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]Could you fill me in? I actually come here to entertain, or discuss, and not be too...serious...[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I don’t hate masculine men, I just do not wish to be one of them. I’ll give you an example. I like Henry Rollins, and he’s 100% masculine, no doubt about it. His arms are folded across his chest, of course, as if on cue. What's he telling me? He’s small, but muscular, exhibiting a tough exterior in public at all times. He looks the part, whatever that may be. But, here’s the rub – he’s well read, thinks about things, understands art, is a good bit towards the left, admires common sense, speaks eloquently, is self-deprecating, and generally is someone I would enjoy talking to. If I was sitting across from him one-on-one and told him I was a crossdresser, I would expect him to pause, grimace, suppress a smirk, then lean forward and attempt to understand where I was coming from. And he would listen to what I said, even though he wouldn’t be comfortable with it, at least initially. We would share a laugh, I’m sure, but he would express some understanding about my “community,” and sound sincere doing it. So, not all men are the same, but masculinity is certainly being projected via body language most of the time, if only for purposes of attraction, to put people at ease, or to alert others to potential danger via conflict… [/SIZE]
If you have a Mac, it's easy! Simply hold down the Option key, type the letter you want and then the letter again.
Kathi
Projecting masculinity -- I don't see how that is a bad thing. Is it bad for a woman to accentuate the sway of her hips by walking with her hands on them? Men have a right to exude sexuality as much as women do, and there's nothing wrong with traditional masculine qualities. The problem lies in thinking that we can be complete people while adopting only the traits traditionally associated with masculinity, and villifying those who cross the line.
Henry Rollins -- I think Henry Rollins would be even cooler about it than that. He's projecting very masculine these days, but the one time I saw him in person he was wearing nothing but a pair of cutoff jean short-shorts and had lovely long black hair. He had a very lean body--masculine, but not muscle bound--and his body language was very androgynous.
Accent Characters -- Another way to get them is by holding down the alt key and typing the ascii decimal code. For example, the é is alt + 130. See this table for others.
Okay. Look at my avatar. If you say I am not feminine, I am gonna smack you up side of the head!! Why, I'll wrastle you to the ground and turn you ever which way but loose! (elaine does her best Ellie May Clampett imitation)
elaine
My point is that the OP's post was discriminating against masculine men, the same type of discrimination that we may (or may not) experience at the hands of others. And in this case, we are not the group being discriminated against, it was one of us (the OP) doing the discriminating. Maybe Frederique didn't mean for her post to sound as negative as I perceived it to be, but it was. I am a transvestite, but I am also a manly man, and I don't like seeing either group discriminate against the other.
I think that you're reading too much into the proximity of the penis to the front pockets in jeans. Putting your hands in your pockets makes it easy to relax, as your arms are supported by both your shoulders and your pants. It's a very natural stance; playing with the change in your pocket is a natural way to keep your hands busy, just like how some girls might play with their hair when bored. This is not a "thinly disguised comparison ritual."
As Freud would say, "Sometimes putting your hands in your pockets is just putting your hands in your pockets (and usually is)."
Oh Nick, Nick, Nick. I like you. You're funny!
Kathi
Lions, and tigers, and bears! Oh, my! ....
Proxemics, haptics, oculesics, kinesics, and olfactics! Oh, my! …
Proxemics
-Psychology and Linguistics study of the spatial requirements of humans and animals.
Haptics
- the branch of psychology that investigates cutaneous sense data (touch)
Oculesics
-the use of the eyes in communication.
Kinesics
–the study of body movements, gestures, facial expressions, etc.,
Olfactics
-the sense of smell (odors) and how it affects communication.
It’s called “body language”. I have studied it extensively in psychology courses, and employed it as a communication tool for years. If you want to “read” people, learn to recognize non-verbal cues and communication.
There is a “rule” commonly referred to as the “7%-38%-55% rule” in psychology, presented by a guy named Albert Mehrabian (Professor of Psychology).
According to his findings, in all instances of face to face communication, the way we communicate is broken down into 7% through spoken words, 38% through voice tone and a staggering 55% via communication body language. My personal belief it that the 55% is too low.
We all use it to unconsciously “signal” what we are really thinking and feeling inside. Most of us “react” to some of these signals without really realizing what we are doing. For those of us who have learned to recognize, understand, and decipher these non-verbal “cues”, it is a powerful tool in “reading” and understanding people in face-to-face communications.
A few “waist/pelvic” cues…for fun...
-When the person is standing with hands on his or her hips, this indicates a certain amount of aggression or readiness. People angle their pelvis toward people they like.
-One of the “sexiest” signs a woman can give is to sit with one leg pressed on top of the other. A hand on the thigh seals the deal as a scream for attraction and admiration from others around her.
-Guys want to maximize their “physical size and appearance” (occupy more personal space). So they talk a wide stance with legs, stand as high as possible, tilt their head, and if they are smart (flirting)…hook their thumbs behind their belt-loops or hook them in the top of front pockets of jeans. (fingers point down and “framing” genitals).
-Women typically minimize the physical space their bodies occupy. (tiny and fragile). So they tend to keep elbows close to sides, legs together, etc. However, standing & leaning with weight on back leg, extending front leg, having one hand perched on back of waist (almost “pushing” it forward) as they tilt head, expose neck and inner wrist…a guy would have to be blind not to notice the “flirting” cues.
There are a myriad of “cues” and “signals” displayed by the person you are talking to. It is easy to recognize lying, emotions, and definitely what is “real” and “deception” in the person you face. (if you are aware of what to look for).
Anyone can learn the cues if they are willing to put in the time. In my opinion, it is an invaluable skill for crossdressing and “passing” (whatever that term really means,
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
To keep the unused hand from getting cut, I suspect. :D
ALWAYS plan for the worst, then you can be pleasantly surprised if something else happens!
"The important thing about the bear is not how well she dances, but that she dances at all." - Old Russian Proverb (with a gender change)
You always have such interesting and confortational comments. They are always so thought provoking.
"...I'm a little teapot, short and stout..."
I never really thought about having your hands on the hip as a feminine thing. I see many men do it, including SUPERMAN as someone else pointed out. Maybe its where the thumb is positioned, ie: in the front as opposed to the back of the torso which gives it more of a feminine appearance.
At work I once sat with my legs crossed "ladylike" and it was quickly condemned by my coworkers. Ironically some of them sit that way as well but nothing gets mentioned. My wife pointed it out once too, oddly she had her legs crossed in a masculine manner while teasing me. People are strange.
Ginger
I do it quite a lot. Both hands on hips, even footed. I think I do it when I take a step back to examine a situation, perhaps a bit assertive, but still relaxed and receptive. I think that's more masculine than feminine.
One hand, and the weight on one leg, or crossed legs, is definitely feminine, though. I kind of like it, I think I'll do that when en femme. It's fun to be kinesthetically "bilingual"!
Your momma was a wise lady. You know there is logic to what she says. Women standing with hands on hips and fingers pointed back makes their cleavage stand out even more. I got this tip on a TV series on dating and bodylanguage.
Mannerisms is a bigger part of passing than having your outfit perfect. I walk with my elbowin veryclose to my bodyand my hands and wrists out a bit with a bent elbow. I may turn my rists down as well. The hand on hip pose that I sometimes use is either with myfingers pointing up and the back of my hadn on my one hip in an asymetrical pose (one hip out a bit and my feet at angles to each other) or with my palm on my hip and thumb forward. The big thing I try to avoid is the appearance of strength or solidness. A narrow stance, shoulders back, maybe a finger pointing out, like a pinky. I once was told, woman pass through a space men possess it. I was reading an older deportment articlethat said woman should never cross their legs at the knees when wearing skirts or dresses? Only at the ankles? What do you girls think of that? This is a great thread.
[SIZE="2"]Not to be rude, or go off topic, but how do you pull that one off? I can’t imagine the internal conflict going on – on one hand you like dressing up (like me), while on the other hand you’d really enjoy beating me up for being queer. Correct me if I’m wrong (I mean, don’t stop now), but keep in mind that I’m your sister. I would add, “And I love you,” but I get the distinct feeling you don’t like me, or won’t like me, no matter what I say…[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I beg to differ, my dear. If you can’t put two and two together, then you need to look in the mirror, make a personal decision about gender, and understand the body language you are at odds with. Keeping your male hands busy is, in itself, a thinly disguised comparison ritual – I stand by those words, arms folded across my chest, of course...[/SIZE]…playing with the change in your pocket is a natural way to keep your hands busy, just like how some girls might play with their hair when bored. This is not a "thinly disguised comparison ritual."
Thank you. You were talking to me; weren't you? Were you talking to me? Were you talking to ME? BECAUSE I DON'T SEE ANYONE ELSE HERE - oh - wait a minute - uh - never mind.
(with apologies to Robert DiNiro.)
ALWAYS plan for the worst, then you can be pleasantly surprised if something else happens!
"The important thing about the bear is not how well she dances, but that she dances at all." - Old Russian Proverb (with a gender change)
Depends on if its your hands or someone elses??
Most men don't have hips so by default it has to be mainly feminine. Alternately..... hands on beer gut would be mainly masculine....
Is that what it means to be manly? Wanting to beat up queers...?
Sadly, Sophie, some people think just that.
When I saw the topic, what immediately came to mind was photos of other cd's. I like to see pics of other cd's. I've seen cd's with beautiful faces perfectly made up, and having nice shapely bodies elegantly dressed. BUT, the pose (often with hands on hips and legs apart) scream GUY!! I took a video of myself walking, runway style, trying to show off and act feminine for the camera. I did not like what I saw (GUY WALKING!). Some of us need work, me included.
There's a scene in the movie "In & Out" related to this topic.
[SIZE="3"]Gender is a state of mind[/SIZE]
LGBTQ PRIDE
As of Oct. 5th, go here to see my pics:http://www.flickr.com/people/fab_karen/
A Yankee Doodle T-Girl
proud of my President
You and I obviously have entirely different definitions of what a "manly man" is. I consider a manly man to be a man who is competitive, likes sports, is good with his hands, jokes around with his buddies, chases girls, or any combination of these sorts of attributes (I personally do not meet all of these criteria), i.e.: the stereotypical masculine male. You, on the other hand, seem to think that manly man is a synonym for violent queer-bashing homophobe. I sure would have some problems if I was your sort of manly man--but I'm not; I am just a manly man.
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know I'm right, and you know you're right. (Unfortunately, I'm the only one who's actually right. All the time.)
One does try.
feminine
Michelle
[SIZE="2"]How childish. In this case, you’re dead wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I think it’s a feminine gesture, too. I usually have my hands on my hips, but I never really thought about it much until now. My skirts and dresses have no pockets, and I can’t cross my arms across my chest because that would hide my breastforms!
Just to clear things up, the following was meant to be read as sarcasm (I thought that the smiley face communicated that, but I was obviously wrong):
Sorry for the confusion!(Unfortunately, I'm the only one who's actually right. All the time.
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