Why are we so afraid of being thought of as Gay?

[Kaz]

Great point and well made...

It really highlights the paradox we are in.

I am not gay. I have tested this many times in my life. I am quite clear. BUT...

As Kaz... I feel certain thoughts...

Now then, how do I rationalise this? In Kaz mode it would be normal to want to experience more and more female experiences (for those of you who do not go down this road and just like wearing women's clothes this may not necessarily apply)... and so..

Then there is the reality...

I must admit that I have not been there yet, though I keep thinking about it. What stops me? I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

This is a real issue for many, I think. Fantasy vs Reality...

[Rianna Humble]

I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

Neither do I, but doesn't that mean that I am?

[Areyan]

it is my understanding, based on talking with a few MTF transsexuals of all kinds of orientations, that one doesn't simply "change" their orientation based on their gender. this is patently true and i am my own case of it. as a female i lived a heterosexual life and dated/sexed with males. now that i am approaching transition to physically become a male i am still heterosexual and have found i am interested in being with females post-transition. i don't know how this applies to crossdressers who are not transsexuals but i hear that if you are a particular orientation before transition, then it will usually remain post-transition. i also agree with the others that if you continue to protest you're not gay when you in fact harbour sexual feelings towards other males then you are at least a bisexual in denial.

also men are incredibly violent and stupid about the whole gay thing. most heterosexual males are in fact, dangerous when homophobic and approached with the homosexual question. how many transwomen have had their living daylights kicked out of them by the man they just had sex with, all because he perceived it as gay after the fact? if you're truly unaware of this, you're living in a vacuum.

[GaleWarning]

I actually don't fancy blokes! So... I am not gay?

Me neither! ... But ... I am actually feeling quite gay right now ... extremely happy, in fact! In a Noddy/Big Ears kind of way.

[Vickie_CDTV]

It may just be a matter of identification.

Virginia Prince argued that heterosexual transvestism is a unique phenomenon in of itself, one of many motivations for crossdressing. If one believes this to be true (and to an extent I do), and to identify as someone who is a member of this phenomenon, one naturally has to include a mention their sexuality.

[KristaE]

Good point, Vickie. I think you may be dead on with that. How can we separate the two topics, when there is so much blend between the two.

The thing is that once we start labeling ourselves, we try to label ourselves as accurately as possible. There are gay and non-gay CDers, so why not label one's self as accurately as possible and say "I am not gay"? Our community has all sorts of acronyms, short-hands, and euphemisms for things, it is almost a guarantee that we are going to have this kind of self-declaratory labeling. Not out of "homophobia", but out accurate self-indentification.

[Jenniferathome]

I think it is more of a reconciliation on the cross dressers part to try to explain to themselves that they are not "weird." Let's face it, cross dressing is different. I've been a cross dresser for almost 35 years and I still can't explain it. I simply love it.

[Rianna Humble]

why not label one's self as accurately as possible and say "I am not gay"?

If we are going to go down that route, our posts will become interminably long because - in the interests of accuracy - we should add:

I'm not a cat
I'm not a dog
...
I'm not {insert animal of choice here}
I'm not purple
I'm not blue-skinned
I'm not fuschia
...
I'm not employed/unemployed (depending on your circumstances)
I'm not rich
I'm not bald (if it's true)
I'm not in love (if it's true)
I'm not a polyglot
I'm not the ruler of the world
I'm not a rock star
I'm not an urban spaceman
...

All of which are equally relevant to the vast majority of topics discussed as "I'm not gay" and are equally accurate. I'll be interested to see how accurately you describe everything that you are not in your next postings.

[Coyote]

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

**The Prisoner** Episode 6 *Arrival*

[Joanne f]

I know we say that sexuality and gender are two different things but they are linked otherwise the human race would have disappeared by now and i know that there are many forms of cross dressing and many reasons to do it .
I wonder sometimes if we do not over simplify it , yes i am gay/ no i am not , is there something more complicated to it than that , it has been said that it is far more natural to be Bi than most people realise or are willing to accept , i think it was the Romans that realised this and embrace it , now throw into that someone who is transgendered , nether male or female or male and female which ever way you look at it , is it possible that they would actually find it difficult to understand or even recognise the concept of being gay for that concept would not exist for them in the same term as it would for a none TG as they do not recognise a distinct difference between male and female within themselves how would they recognise a difference in gay or not gay sexuality .
Does the concept of being gay actually exist for a transgender.

[cordgrass]

Before knocking down Seanmuscle comments, please go back to the thread “Crossing dressing and dating guys?” which received more than 700 posts. A very high proportion of members (80%?) said that when dressed, they are interested of being with a man. Should they be all classified as Gays? Technically yes, because the common definition of Gay is a “male” to “male “ relationship. However, if we accept that we have a woman side, it is quite understandable that with time that woman side will claim its due and ask for retribution and satisfaction, sometimes just as a fantasy. I am not convinced that we can call that type of relationship a Gay relationship. If we remove the cross-dressing side, we would not have any relationship because almost every responder insisted on the "when dressed" aspect.

I'm curious to know whether this desire to be with a man is just to take the role and physical sensations of the female, or actually enjoying the male scent, male body, male genitalia? In other words, would that sort of desire be fulfilled by a pretty woman dressed in a feminine way who was very sexually aggressive and assumed the man's role in all respects, including pegging?

[KristaE]

If we are going to go down that route, our posts will become interminably long because - in the interests of accuracy - we should add:
(remainder omitted for brevity)

But none of those things are relevant to the question of crossdressing, whereas (as others have mentioned) homosexuality is closely related to the topic. I agree that the better phrase would be "I am straight", but it sounds like people are upset at any mention of orientation. I think that is just ridiculous. These are relevant and related topics.

[NicoleScott]

Rianna, I may be one or more of those things you said you're not in your post (#108). But I'm not offended by you saying you're not.
Why someone who is gay gets offended by someone saying they're not just blows me away. Oops. Sorry. Does that offend you , too?
I can only say things. Whether or not another gets offended is their choice.

[seanmuscle]

Pegging is not the same as having a real man. Plus a womans body is built differently. He knows that you are still a woman in his head so that in itself is not fulfilling. What are you going to do if your husband is secretly dreaming about 6 foot 2 hunk?

[cordgrass]

Well, that's exactly my question.

Why do I suspect that you are 6'2"?

Also, I don't have a husband, I'm a, well, I'm very similar to you, shall we say.

[Rianna Humble]

Rianna, I may be one or more of those things you said you're not in your post (#108). But I'm not offended by you saying you're not.
Why someone who is gay gets offended by someone saying they're not just blows me away. Oops. Sorry. Does that offend you , too?

Nicole, just because I am offended that people protest about their sexuality where it is totally irrelevant to the point under discussion does not give you the right to make assumptions about my sexuality.

@Krista, in the vast majority of posts where I have been offended by people protesting about their sexuality, this had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic under discussion.

As I have said higher up in this thread, if the topic under discussion is sexual relations then fair play if you want to state what your orientation is whilst contributing to that subject. When you bring your sexuality into a discussion (for example) about what colour nail varnish you prefer, it becomes offensive.

My sexual orientation has rarely been stated in these forums (I would estimate less than once in every 500 posts) and is generally irrelevant to the topic of cross-dressing or transition. Even in this thread where some have presumed that because I get offended by people trumpeting their sexuality where it does not belong my personal orientation is none of your business.

If you wish to include irrelevancies for the purpose of accuracy, please include the different categories that you snipped from my example, otherwise I will continue to be offended by your flaunting your sexuality where it is not relevant.

You contend that sexual orientation is relevant to the whole of the topic of cross-dressing, in that case it is also relevant to any discussion in the general population be it about religion, politics or just the weather because the incidence of any given sexual orientation has never been proven to be higher amongst cross-dressers than amongst the general population.

[kimdl93]

This thread has lingered for a few days now and I've avoided responding. But, I'm bored, so what the heck.

My first reactions was "who is we?" I am sure some of us dislike being stereotyped as gay because we CD. Others among us probably don't give a rip about labels.

Now, why does being labeled gay evoke fear in people (CD or otherwise) is another matter. Bad things have happened to people because prejudice...from being ostracized from social networks to job loss to physical harm. And of course, one can consider the intentions of the people applying such labels. The Gay label is almost always used as a weapon meant to demean and diminish.

[Janice Lester]

After reading the whole thread, well up until right now. I was surprised how long it took for someone to mention that the OP was talking mostly about what is on this forum. Yes there was an example of someone from the outside but it was primarily about here.

We like to proclaim that here on the forum we should be open about our feelings, that this should be a safe place to express ourselves. But I've gotten that feeling, the hair on the back of my neck standing up when the subject at hand has nothing to do with sexual orientation someone types "I'm not gay"

Ok, congratulations you've shown yourself to be insensitive in a place where you've come to be understood.

[Barbara Dugan]

I'm curious to know whether this desire to be with a man is just to take the role and physical sensations of the female, or actually enjoying the male scent, male body, male genitalia? In other words, would that sort of desire be fulfilled by a pretty woman dressed in a feminine way who was very sexually aggressive and assumed the man's role in all respects, including pegging?

This is a good question. on my personal experience is to take the role and physical sensations of the female and I have to admit that for me the male scent,male body is really intoxicating. I've never been with a woman in my life even that some tried to tempt me a few times. I think on some relationships a woman can be sexually aggressive, sexuality can take many variations

[Maddie22]

Before I interject my views and opinions regarding this thread I would like to say that it has been one of the most interesting posts that I've read in a while.

Getting to the basic question of the post regarding of, why people on this forum feel a need to proclaim their hetrosexuality in each of their posts, I'm really not sure why it happens. To be honest I don't see to many on here proclaiming the "I'm not gay" unless it does indeed pertain to the original post in the thread. I do believe that the original post does not have to be about sexual orientation or sexual fantasy to warrant a person replying in the thread "I'm not gay" and still be in complete and validated context to post that proclamation. Obviously if it is a thread that is talking about for example,nail polish, stating whether you are straight or gay has absolutely no business in being such a post in these forums.

Like I said though, I do not notice the "I'm not gay" being introjected as much as some of you do. Perhaps, and only perhaps, you may notice this phrase more because it bothers you more than it may bother others. As human beings as a whole, in general, we do tend to notice things that bother our own-self, more so than others who which it does not bother. Over all I don't think it is necessary to proclaim in ever post you make your sexual orientation. I can understand how that can be offensive to some, and annoying to others. I can also understand some peoples motives and self needs to make such proclamation. I believe also that the best way to solve problems between people is to discuss openly. It could be positive to say why you do feel the need to state your sexual orientation and it could be just as positive to say why this bothers you when people to state that their orientation. I tend to believe that we as humans often hate because of fear, and often fear out of mis-understandings.

For the broader scope of this entire thread, I do have a few thoughts of some of the overall mood in this thread.

Both gender and orientation are on two different spectrum's. They are indeed two separate entities. That being said most people generally equate the two as being the same thing. It is embedded in our society, and for the most part the most reoccurring social tendency is for masculine men and feminine females to both be attracted to each other. However just like some people like might like certain types food more than other types, or someone may be very tall or short, there are variances in humans in both sexual orientation and gender roles and/or identities. I think some of these variances are cause by nature and some by nurture, and some a combination of the two. However it is important to realize that these variances do exist. Some of these variances are more accepted in the larger part of society than other variances. In my personal views and experiences, it is not totally positive in society to be gay or lesbian or bisexual. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, but to a large degree the lack of acceptance has to do with mis-understanding and fear. It is also in my experience that being under the trans-gender umbrella (CD, TS, TV, Drag, gender queer, ect...) is less acceptable and even more mis-understood and feared.

Often times, as the result of society generalizing gender and sexual orientation as being the same, being somewhere under the trans-gendered umbrella results in others judging your sexual orientation to being gay. Thus many people may feel the need to clarify their sexual orientation when discussing their gender differences.

There also maybe more regional differences in understanding LGBTQ issues as a whole. For instance I've been to many gay bars where anyone the management supports anyone's orientation or gender differences. However not all patron's do. I find many people in the LGBTQ community around where I live (East TN) to be lacking in the issues and understanding of their whole community. Thus many people are extremely surprised when I tell them what gender I'm attracted to. However I've been to other regional places where this does not occur as frequently. However the more information, understanding, and familiarity an individual has on the subject of LGBTQ issues, generally speaking they are not surprised when in fact I do tell them when they ask the question of my sexuality.

Some things to think about:

I've read a few posts in this thread pertaining to the idea that there are more CDers than are willing to admit who are bi-curious, or are fully attracted to males, because CDers are trying to be woman and that feminine woman want to be with a man, and that many on here have had curious thoughts about being with a male when dressed as female. Well maybe they really are not gay, bi-curious, or bi at all. Maybe those thoughts come to them because they think that that is what a woman is supposed to do, be with a man, it is what society tells us to do. So for them to make logic of their CDing they believe that they are bi, gay, or bi-curious.

Also, think about this, why do CD's get mad when being called a tranny, or drag queen?

If all masculine men that are straight like to be with femminine women, how do we explain the females that are very tomboyish and sometimes outdoorsy which are with masculine men?

What about tall women with short men?



Bottom line is that we all have variances in who we are as people. I believe that for the most part that gender and sexual orientation variances are unique and positive. There is a divide between much of the LGBTQ community, and we need start educating ourselves, and accepting all of our differences before we can help each other and make positive impacts and gather more support from society in large.

Lets start living and let live.

BTW, I thought all Canadians did say "Eh"

[GaleWarning]

Getting to the basic question of the post regarding of, why people on this forum feel a need to proclaim their hetrosexuality in each of their posts, I'm really not sure why it happens.

I'll give you a short answer to this question.

It's because too many members find it difficult to remember that although many of us use female names on this site, and some of us use gender-neutral names, not all of us like being referred to as "girls", as in "Hi girls."

Whenever this happens and my gender/sexuality is confused/abused in this way, I make a point of reminding the poster that I am a heterosexual male who happens to like wearing women's clothing.

Tamara has actually posted a "sticky", so big is the problem.

[Rianna Humble]

I understand up to a point, Clay, but don't quite follow how addressing you wrongly as a girl challenges your sexuality.

Do you not think that "I am a male who happens to like wearing women's clothing" would be sufficient response to someone saying "Hi girls"?

[NicoleScott]

I understand up to a point, Clay, but don't quite follow how addressing you wrongly as a girl challenges your sexuality.

I understand up to a point, Rianna, but don't quite follow how stating MY sexuality offends YOU.

[DaphneGrey]

This thread has lingered for a few days now and I've avoided responding. But, I'm bored, so what the heck.

My first reactions was "who is we?" I am sure some of us dislike being stereotyped as gay because we CD. Others among us probably don't give a rip about labels.

Now, why does being labeled gay evoke fear in people (CD or otherwise) is another matter. Bad things have happened to people because prejudice...from being ostracized from social networks to job loss to physical harm. And of course, one can consider the intentions of the people applying such labels. The Gay label is almost always used as a weapon meant to demean and diminish.

Oooh so glad you could grace us with your thoughts, NOT I was going to answer your question but I got distracted so why bother

[DaphneGrey]

I know we say that sexuality and gender are two different things but they are linked otherwise the human race would have disappeared by now and i know that there are many forms of cross dressing and many reasons to do it .
I wonder sometimes if we do not over simplify it , yes i am gay/ no i am not , is there something more complicated to it than that , it has been said that it is far more natural to be Bi than most people realise or are willing to accept , i think it was the Romans that realised this and embrace it , now throw into that someone who is transgendered , nether male or female or male and female which ever way you look at it , is it possible that they would actually find it difficult to understand or even recognise the concept of being gay for that concept would not exist for them in the same term as it would for a none TG as they do not recognise a distinct difference between male and female within themselves how would they recognise a difference in gay or not gay sexuality .
Does the concept of being gay actually exist for a transgender.

Great points! I really like this post. Very insightful, it has gotten me thinking in a way I wasn't before. Thank You!