A question about BDSM and Crossdressing\tg\ts ?

[sissystephanie]

I would have to agree with Stephanie Miller, who pretty well says it all. The British medical article said that Transvestites and BDSM were pretty much the same. That may be true, but one must remember that according to all known statistics, Transvestites account for only a very small portion of Crossdressers. I know the United Kingdom uses the 2 terms as one and the same, but medically they are not! And I don't think they are the same on this Forum either! A Transvestite dresses primarily for sexual reasons, which many of us on this Forum do not!

My late wife and I used to use some light bondage at times during sex play, but were never into BDSM. Nor would I ever get into it. It is not my thing at all.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Not so much into the SM part, but I definitely think there is a BD aspect to my CDing. And it isn't so much "submitting" like a servant or slave, but more being served and allowing your partner to take the reins.

Just for the record the acronym-BDSM-can be broken down several ways, and since it covers such a vast array of feelings, actions and such, it makes sense to cover it fully.
The typical way is Bondage Discipline Sado Masochism, but the DS can also be read as D/s as in Dominance and submission and the SM as slave and Master.

As for the idea of Joe Public (or Jane perhaps) roaming around here and seeing something damaging to our communities image, we should keep in mind that the internet has numerous places that can be much more visually graphic. Face it there are many sites that have the TG/CD label attached that are more "out there".
And since we are on the subject of BDSM, FetLife comes to mind, which has a fairly large contigent of CD/TG/TS/TVs, and prolly would be very shocking to the unsuspecting.
As stated our having a proper and respectful discussion of dominance and submission by those of us who do identify should not be seen as a bad thing.

I previously mentioned another thread just as an option.

Cassie

[Stephanie Miller]

I couldn't agree more Daphnie, that there are subjects like this that can be openly talked about. This was not a point I was eluding to. I was expressing my thoughts on adding BDSM to the overall general populace of CD's, as in your statement above. It's just, like I said earlier, that maybe I'm oversensitive to the crossdressing and peoples general perception of who we are. CD's seem to only get bad press. We are thrown under the bus at every chance. I just don't see the need to give additional fuel to the fire with non factually supported comments that have the possibility of not helping our public image - and possibly even lowering it by saying them.

[Stephanie Anne]

What's with the Transvestism versus crossdressers? Same damn thing. They are words to describe the same thing. If anything I think people in this thread are confusing transvestitism with fetishism. More acutely clothing fetishes.

I would say that any people that say a corset fetish or petticoat / lolita fetish would statistically fall into a higher than average amount of affinity for BDSM. I also don't really call light bondage bdsm. Tying you up with scarves to get a thrill is not the same as leathers on a cross getting spanked raw upside down while blowing a dom wearing a dildo.

To answer daphnegrey's question, I don't feel dominate in my relationships. I don't feel overtly submissive either. Sexually, I would be a bottom because I prefer that but it really is not a female = weak trait. It is a preference for pleasure.

I'm not really actively into partaking in restraint or humiliation bondage as I feel trapped / ridiculed doing so and it defeats the enjoyment factor. The last thing I want is to be made to feel small or ridiculed. I also do not like like bondage as I don't like my limbs immobile during sex. Light pain is a different matter and enhances intimacy so long as it is not done in a harmful or scarring way. I would also never bind my partner as it decreases my enjoyment.

For those who will undoubtadly disagree with my terminology about cd versus tv...

Transvestism - is the practice of cross-dressing, which is wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex.
Cross-dressing - is the wearing of clothing and other accoutrement commonly associated with a gender within a particular society that is seen as different than the one usually presented by the dresser.

So if you want to get technical, transvestism is the act of cross-dressing which is the act of wearing garments and appearing as a gender incongruent with your presented gender.

[BRANDYJ]

For the sake of this all taking off in the wrong way, might i suggest Daphne, that you do a search on this topic. I know that there was a very long and quite thorough discussion of what you are asking.
My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, so i'll have to come back to it.

You tell em' Stevie!!!!

Cassie

p.s. ok, so i looked and the thread was started by our friend BRANDYJ, and since it went to 7 pages you should find lot's of valuable info there. Sorry but i would provide the link if i knew what the heck i was doing.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable could consider that a hint.

Hi MsMJSerene, Yes, it was me that started the thread you mentioned. I'm glad to see Daphnie start this one...Thank you Daphnie.

My first thought after reading all the posts so far is that BDSM and all the subcategories covered under that wide umbrella for many dominant and submissive activities and lifestyles is as misunderstood as the umbrella term " Transgendered", that covers everyone and anyone that is either straight, bi, gay, drag queen, sissy, fetish, transsexual, transvestite, crossdresser, full time, part time, dressing and or acting the part of the gender they were not born in. Well you get the picture.
I was a crossdresser long before I ever developed an interest in being submissive to ONLY GG females. In fact, I was a crossdresser before that term came...hell, before I even knew a name for the then shameful thing I did as an 11 year old boy. There are many things under the BDSM umbrella that I have zero interest in. Many things some people do frankly turn me off. Hey, we all have our limits and personal likes and dislikes. As an example, I am a crossdresser and I like to be a maid or even a French maid to the lady I serve, but don't yo dare call me a sissy! I despise that term with all it's negative connotations. So I can see where some readers here can get their panties in a wad over some suggestions that being submissive or otherwise participating in any form of BDSM is more prevalent among crossdressers then the general population. I am among those that believes it is more prevalent among crossdressers then non-crossdressing men. No, not from some study, just my own observation of several sites dealing with bondage, dominance and submission; like fetlife and collarme.com


Just like all of us that are transgendered, there are things some of us do that many think is weird, sick, wrong or just not something we'd do. Some of us will go out dressed and even shop dressed, The majority of us would never do it for various reasons.

Some of you may think a man that submits to a woman is weak. I say you are very wrong. It takes a strong man to allow himself to submit to a woman. I am far from submissive in my business or social life away from what I am with the one woman I love, admire, respect and serve. I'm proud to make her life a little easier by my filling her wishes through my very freely given submission to her. She is very loving, very giving, very understanding and fair in everything we do. But in the end, her wishes come before my own. And I don't wan tit any other way.

Some of you might want to read the many posts by others in the thread I started. I think there is a good cross section of opinions there for those interested to think about. The link is: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ive&highlight=

I hope this thread continues with the same accepting attitude that was shown in my thread. BDSM or more directly, D/s may not be your thing, but please respect those that are happy with their interest and or involvement with it. Speaking of acceptance and tolerance, if any of you want to know where you could go dressed and be accepted, find your local BDSM munch and go dressed and see just how accepting and tolerant this alternate lifestyle group of people can be.

[Barbara Dugan]

I am not very much into BDSM, but with the right partner it can be such fun it add variety to a relationship. I am always sub,you can tell that for my affinity to collars and one friend used to describe me as a sweet power bottom.

[MsJanessa]

I agree with the OP---when dressed, particularly in something sexy and shiny, I feel empowered and am always a top in any relationship---I'm lucky enough to have gurlfriends who feel the opposite way and are very submissive when dressed so it works out fine

[Rogina B]

I just hate to see the CD world painted with ANY broad brush.And,like Stephanie said,we are alwys getting bad press.Why fuel the fire when the numbers don't reflect reality?Who knows how many T minded people there are when so many are in the closet? So,why are any statistics accurate?

[docrobbysherry]

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My late wife and I used to use some light bondage at times during sex play, but were never into BDSM. Nor would I ever get into it. It is not my thing at all.

Some people mite disagree with u, Stephanie! Because the B in BDSM stands for Bondage. However, I would argue that a guy who tries on his SO's panties and/or nylons in private once or twice, is NOT necessarily a CD!
Likewise, the fact that u TRIED bondage may be SUBSTANCIALLY different than being a tru bondage enthusiast. Which I WAS/AM.:brolleyes:

Also, being a Bondage enthusiast, DOESN'T mean I enjoy any of the REST of the BDSM acronym! (I don't!) Or, even like using the acronym. Which I DON'T! :Angry3:

Hmmm! I wonder if that analogy can be applied to OTHER acronyms? Maybe one that contains a "TG" in it?
That mite explain why SOME of the LETTERS in there, object to the implied connection to the OTHERS!?

[Shari]

For me, BDSM does not completely apply. Bondage and submission, yes. The other darker parts, no.

There is definitely a stronger urge when I am dressed than when in male mode. I go back to those detective magazine covers of the captive damsels in distress and fancy myself as being that when tied up. It's my strongest and most desired bedroom activity. It makes me feel even more feminine than dressing by itself.

Having posted and participated in threads concerning this, I recall them always being some of the more popular subjects on this forum. I further believe that for many of us here, there is a much stronger urge to practice this than the "normal" cross section of our society.

[DaphneGrey]

I couldn't agree more Daphnie, that there are subjects like this that can be openly talked about. This was not a point I was eluding to. I was expressing my thoughts on adding BDSM to the overall general populace of CD's, as in your statement above. It's just, like I said earlier, that maybe I'm oversensitive to the crossdressing and peoples general perception of who we are. CD's seem to only get bad press. We are thrown under the bus at every chance. I just don't see the need to give additional fuel to the fire with non factually supported comments that have the possibility of not helping our public image - and possibly even lowering it by saying them.

Well I don't quite see it the same way. And truthfully we both have the communities best interest at heart so I edited the title and content of my OP. I hope you stick around for some more of the conversation. I also added a rather long footnote to the op as well that perhaps might help understand my motivation

I am not really trying to change your belief docrobbyshery. I am just trying to learn about something I don't understand from people who practice and enjoy it. I am really interested in exploring the motivations specifically as they pertain to gender and gender expression. If there even is any.

My GG is Submissive to the point SHE is worried about it. Now that being said, I do find many GG being submissive, and usually it is not because of anything natural per se, but due to the manner they were raised, and things they were told. My GG friend for instance was brought up being told she was useless and worthless due to her being a girl. She was treated like trash too. The female friends I have had that act submissive also seem to have had a similar bringing up. Ones that were brought up to be proud of themselves, participated in sports, and were treated with respect when they were children ARE NOT SUBMISSIVE.

So my view is quite skewed when it come to this. What I say here may be a bit off.

There are levels of submissiveness that are natural, and all species exhibit this, but not to the point some humans do.

I myself do not find me being overtly sub, or dom. I can get uncomfortable playing the dom. I don't like fixed roles.

I have been described as a switch.

Thanks for posting! So In the case of your SO and the other GGs you mentioned it is more nurture than nature. Is she submissive during play only? what is she like otherwise? I hope that isn't to personal.

It is true that dom\sub exsists in the animal kingdom. But I guess we tend to amplify things.

I will admit I don't really understand the scene as It were but this concept of dominance and submission is not at all uncommon it is part of life. I think about being married or any other relationship.

Some times just rolling over when your partner really wants sex and you are tired, being passive lending yourself to another is a form of submission and really quite beautiful!

Or in ballroom dancing, The male leads and the woman (chooses) to follow. Looking at it from that perspective the submissive partner is really in control.

Is that the allure maybe being able to trust someone so deeply that you choose to go wherever they might lead?

[DaphneGrey]

I am not sure about the bdsm and CD correlation other than if you are openminded enough to explore CD you would probably be more accepting of something different such as BDSM. I have always viewed the vast majority of women at being somewhat submissive. With that being said, presenting as a woman in appearance and actions would naturally create a degree of submissiveness. IMHO.

That is something I havent thought of but it is a very good point! In your case, I would like to ask. Do you associate women being submissive as a condition of sexual politics? ie Men work and women stay home etc? Or do you feel it is inherrant in a feminine nature? Just curious, and not judging.

[Niya W]

Little miss innocents is chiming in. I've seen just as many TS in to BDSM as I've seen CD's. Now here is an odd twist . From what I've seen trans women into BDSM seem to play with other women even if the are into men. Just what I've seen. Also a lot of CD's that I know were into BDSM before they dressed. Others had an interest in it . When they felt that they could be them selfs and dress, they though they could be them selfs and enter BDSM.

[Kate Simmons]

Don't worry about folks being on the defensive Daph. If they can't stand the "heat" then maybe they should get out of the "kitchen". Anyway, to answer your question I tried B & D briefly once for about a month. At the end I was ready to deck my "dom" as it was assumed I was a "sub". I wasn't and just because I dressed I didn't feel submissive nor did I ever.

[Jorja]

I am not into BDSM and really do not understand why anyone would want to put themselves in that position. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just not my thing. I would rather be an equal with my partner and do what comes natural to please them. I have never felt the need to be tied up and beat with a whip nor have I ever felt the need to control anyone.

No judgments here, if that is what you like, go for it.

[Laurie A]

Just for the record the acronym-BDSM-can be broken down several ways, and since it covers such a vast array of feelings, actions and such, it makes sense to cover it fully.
The typical way is Bondage Discipline Sado Masochism, but the DS can also be read as D/s as in Dominance and submission and the SM as slave and Master.

As for the idea of Joe Public (or Jane perhaps) roaming around here and seeing something damaging to our communities image, we should keep in mind that the internet has numerous places that can be much more visually graphic. Face it there are many sites that have the TG/CD label attached that are more "out there".
And since we are on the subject of BDSM, FetLife comes to mind, which has a fairly large contigent of CD/TG/TS/TVs, and prolly would be very shocking to the unsuspecting.
As stated our having a proper and respectful discussion of dominance and submission by those of us who do identify should not be seen as a bad thing.

I previously mentioned another thread just as an option.

Cassie

Agreed! Too often threads like this get hung up on the "labels"! BDSM is a label that covers a huge range of possiblities.

What a boring place this would be if everyone here defined themselves by an acronym. The diversity of experiences and opinions on this board, imho, is why it is so interesting to read.

[Kali]

I've been active in the D/s scene for more than 30 years. Primarily I've been a Dom male. For the last two years I live almost 24/7 as a submissive female, with my fiancee being the one in charge, in almost all aspects of our lives. The conditions of my current life aren't really germane here, but I'm more than happy to discuss how we live in a private conversation.

That being said, in all my years of experience in the scene, which inculded significant amount of public play and events, the percentage of CDers that I encounter is fairly high. Every event will have crossdressers in attendence, for the most part.

However, and that's a big however, until recently, the majority of the crossdressers I would encounter were there simply to be able to dress and spend time in an environment that didn't judge them for that aspect of their personality. There was always a subset that were there because they were submissives in their CD persona, a smaller subset that were Dom, but they would have been there regardless of their attire. For example, my fiancee had a collared submissive who loved to go out crossdressed (and he looked pretty good) but when he played in public it was always as a naked man.

We also knew lots of crossdressers and even a few TG that attended events simply to be able to sit and talk without regard to their appearance. My fiancee used to hold brief classes on improving your female presentation; focusing on movement, voice, mannerisms, etc. Nothing to do with D/s, simply set in that accepting venue.

So if you look at it from the D/s perspective, there seem to be a lot of CDs, but as a percentage of the total CD population, probably no higher than the general population as a whole, regardless of any poorly done research studies.

[ginafaye]

The short version its been a 20year trip ginafaye is very submissive...pretty much a the role revesal in our home . nothing to crazy but truley we have swapped roles

[CaitlynRenee]

Interesting question. I personally know GGs as well as CD/TG people who love role playing in bed, on the kitchen table, the hood of the car, etc. An old girl friend just loved to hold her hands over her head and pretend she was bound. That girl could fantasize like no one else. Coming from socialist country where bondage had a whole other meaning, my wife won't even pretend. CAN'T pretend without being terrified.

Funny though, while the old girl friend loved to fantasize of being in bondage, she also liked it when I would do the same. My wife can't even understand why I would want to 'give up control' in a sensual way. Soooooo, we don't.

A CD friend of mine would just love to meet up with another CD who she could role play with. She's just too much of a drab 'buddy' though for us to hook up, though there would be a certain amount of trust there. AND, she's gorgeous enfemme.

Fantasy is one of the most erotic aspects of our sexuality. I say fantasy, because to me and my lovers over the years, it has always been the fantasy of being helpless, in anothers control, and the fantasy of not being able to deny our own feminine sexuality. Being compelled to acknowledge ourselves as desireable, and beautiful and deserving of experiencing sexual fulfillment in the extreme. Not being allowed to deny that which is an intrinsic part of ourselves. Feminine sexuality, acknowledgement and release, be it mine or my lovers, was required and quite fulfilling.

I could say that: Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me, but THAT is flippant and not germane to this discussion.

[BRANDYJ]

I've been active in the D/s scene for more than 30 years. Primarily I've been a Dom male. For the last two years I live almost 24/7 as a submissive female, with my fiancee being the one in charge, in almost all aspects of our lives. The conditions of my current life aren't really germane here, but I'm more than happy to discuss how we live in a private conversation.

That being said, in all my years of experience in the scene, which inculded significant amount of public play and events, the percentage of CDers that I encounter is fairly high. Every event will have crossdressers in attendence, for the most part.

However, and that's a big however, until recently, the majority of the crossdressers I would encounter were there simply to be able to dress and spend time in an environment that didn't judge them for that aspect of their personality. There was always a subset that were there because they were submissives in their CD persona, a smaller subset that were Dom, but they would have been there regardless of their attire. For example, my fiancee had a collared submissive who loved to go out crossdressed (and he looked pretty good) but when he played in public it was always as a naked man.

We also knew lots of crossdressers and even a few TG that attended events simply to be able to sit and talk without regard to their appearance. My fiancee used to hold brief classes on improving your female presentation; focusing on movement, voice, mannerisms, etc. Nothing to do with D/s, simply set in that accepting venue.

So if you look at it from the D/s perspective, there seem to be a lot of CDs, but as a percentage of the total CD population, probably no higher than the general population as a whole, regardless of any poorly done research studies.

Good post Kali. With my interest and participation in D/s, I have seen the same thing as you. An event, munch or party for those into various BDSM interests are very accepting of crossdressing. So it is a good place for CD's to go just to be out and about in a safe environment. We have a local munch monthly for D/s, BDSM enthusiasts. Te very first time I ever attended, I was dressed fem. I was accepted and made some friends that have no interest in crossdressing. Just a general sense of acceptance. Kind of like... accept my kink and I'll accept yours.
I can't say I live D/s 24/7 since my Domme, the lady I love with all my heart is 1,200 miles away raising 3 granddaughters. But when she was here in Florida, we did live it 24/7. Of course I am proudly still submissive to her and her alone. So in that sense, it is still 24/7.
Oddly, I was a CD since age 11 or so and had zero interest in anything remotely considered BDSM or D/s until much later in life. For me to submit, I have to be in a relationship with the lady. It is far more then just play for me. I am blessed in that I found a loving, caring, dominant woman to serve.

[Sally24]

What's with the Transvestism versus crossdressers? Same damn thing. They are words to describe the same thing. If anything I think people in this thread are confusing transvestitism with fetishism.

The problem with this is that non medical professionals quite often associate "transvestic fetishist" and the sexual nature of it with the term transvestite. Many CD's also do not like the tone that can come with that term also. I almost never use the term except to describe transvestic fetishism.

I don't have any numbers but in the 5 years I've been on this forum there has been a "feeling" I've gotten that many here enjoy the forced feminization and bondage fantasies. I am one of them. In my male life I do enjoy some mild bondage and have been on both sides of the rope. I think some of it naturally comes from the nature of the damsel in distress that we've seen all of our lives in cartoons and movies.

While I do keep my discussion here on a non-graphic level, I see no reason to avoid any topics because it might "look bad" to outsiders. If I worried about that I would never have stepped out the door. I think more information is always prefered over less. Just my .02

[seanmuscle]

That is a pretty easy answer. Most women are naturally gentle and submissive due to estrogen and oxytocin plus society being more strict on the way girls should behave. The more submissive feminine girls were raised by strong masculine fathers who were great leaders and knew how to take care of her so she has great trust in men. Men are testosterone filled and associated with aggression so its hard to feel submissive when presenting as a male. Thus, CD like to present as a dainty female which makes it much more easier to embrace and feel their submissive side in activities such as bdsm.

[Fab Karen]

Innocent Niya ( we innocent girls are so misunderstood ) said,"Also a lot of CD's that I know were into BDSM before they dressed. Others had an interest in it . When they felt that they could be them selfs and dress, they thought they could be them selfs and enter BDSM."
I'll back that up. Before I accepted interest in dressing I was into bondage play.

That is a pretty easy answer. Most women are naturally gentle and submissive due to estrogen and oxytocin plus society being more strict on the way girls should behave. The more submissive feminine girls were raised by strong masculine fathers who were great leaders and knew how to take care of her so she has great trust in men. Men are testosterone filled and associated with aggression so its hard to feel submissive when presenting as a male.

You need to get out more. Go spend some time with real world females, & be sure to mention your theory.

[NicoleScott]

Marina quoted a reputable source that stated that bondage and transvestism are frequently associated. I don't doubt that, but the statement is somewhat vague. The association may not be a two-way association. It could be that bondage fans frequently include crossdressing in their bondage activities. That doesn't mean that crossdressers frequently include bondage in their crossdressing activities.
I am a pleasure dresser with a few fetishes, which makes me a fetishistic transvestite or fetishistic crossdresser. I like some of the looks (of the outfits) I've seen of BDSM participants, especially those that include my fetishes. But I'm not into BDSM - it just doesn't ring my bell.
I do have a question, though: is forced feminization a form or type of a BDSM activity? Just curious.
Crossdresser vs transvestite? StephanieAnne provided definitions but said it best herself: "same damn thing"

[MarinaKirax]

I should say that I only included the British Med Jourmnal article because earlier in the replies, there had been a call to back up the hunch about BDSM with some hard data. I happen to think there is some truth in it, and I agree that it applies to a specific sub-section (that was NOT a pun ) of the ladies here. That article was just the first one I came across, in about 30 seconds. So we shouldn't put too much weight on it.

I think I understand and use the term crossdresser to be inclusive of everyone on the continuum from those who get sexual excitement out of wearing the clothes, to those whose attraction is to the image of themselves as a beautiful woman, to those who desire to be interact and be treated as female, to those who feel they are female inside but trapped in a mans body... and probably lots more descriptions. Everything from a boy who masturbates after putting on pantyhose, all the way to the truly transgendered, who are female in every way but physical. To me, the term transvestite says its about only the clothes; not necessarily about the role, or the perception of self. This is probably cutting too fine a line, but it's probably necessary for comparing notes among us girls. I agree that to most of society, transvestism and crossdressing are the same thing.

OOOh... and yes, Nicole, I think forced feminization is very similar to BDSM - the idea of a female image, not in control, yes. I think the 2 enthiusiast 'pie charts' would overlap quite a bit.
MK