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Thread: Much ado about “wrongness”

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    Much ado about “wrongness”

    [SIZE="2"]Now and then, or more often than not, the crossdresser will bump into someone who feels that crossdressing is WRONG, based on some implied universal or eternal truth – it’s just wrong, and there will be no discussion about it. I endured this point of view from, of all people, my beloved sister – one day we were watching one of those Police chase video compilations on TV, and the cops stopped a car with a MtF crossdresser in it. Slowly but surely our heroine emerged from the vehicle, while the cops took pains to record the entire scene for posterity on videotape, laughing all the time. I felt mortified, being a closeted crossdresser, so I said nothing. Suddenly my sister said, “Oh, he shouldn’t be doing that – that’s wrong!” I need to point out that she was referring to the poor crossdresser, and not the policeman...


    When I came out to my sister last year, I replayed this moment in time that we shared, explaining to her that one reason why I never felt comfortable talking about my crossdressing was because she openly declared that it was WRONG for a male to do it. She blushed, and then apologized, while I just shrugged. Even the most culturally polished, freedom-of-choice, don’t-tell-me-how-to-think people I know, like my sister, still harbor some balance for correctness in their souls, and certain things are wrong, wrong, wrong, period. What’s a girl to do?

    There was once a 20th century American philosopher named Richard Rorty, and he challenged this idea of eternal truths, which form the basis for moral absolutes and the concept of a soul. I wish to discuss the former, rather than the latter. It goes something like this:

    “When we say ‘I know in my heart it is wrong,’ we assume there is an eternal truth about wrongness.” Also, “...we assume that the knowledge we have is certain knowledge, but absolutely certain knowledge of how things are is not possible.” However, “...we cannot find any eternal truths about ethics,” because “What we know is a matter of conversation and social practice.” Therefore, “There is nothing deep down inside us except what we have put there ourselves.” In other words, we are responsible for harboring this idea of wrongness.

    To Mr, Rorty, we only become aware of something through conceptualizing it, and our concepts are learned through language. Our perceptions are therefore inextricably tangled up with the habitual ways that we use language to divide up the world. When we decide what counts as knowledge, our judgment rests not on how strongly a “fact” correlates to the world, so much as whether it is something that “society lets us say.”

    If you can take away, or reject, the moral standards that have been accepted and cultivated by society, you will be able to question this idea of “wrongness.” You weren’t born with it, but you were born into a world of absolutes where many people feel, in their “heart of hearts” that something like crossdressing is inherently “wrong.” Must you believe that there is some truth about life, or some absolute moral law, that you are violating, in order to maintain even a shred of human decency? That seems WRONG to me, but I’m a crossdresser, operating within my own set of moral absolutes. I AM, therefore I dress, irrespective of the consequences, or the accepted, unquestioned moral truths of others...

    Have you ever struggled with this concept of “wrongness” in regards to crossdressing? It seems to be at the heart of everything, including initial reactions, tolerance, or eventual acceptance, since society invariably sees us as people wearing the “wrong” clothes...
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    The Girl will Out! Kaz's Avatar
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    Freddy, you often pose these long narratives, which I love and enjoy and provide a contextual background that is rich... and then we trash it with the usual stuff!

    So here is my starter...

    This is a values and principles based issue. My wife thinks "it is just wrong".. there is no shifting her. All the rhetoric on this site about honesty and so on so pisses me off. Real life isn't like that for people like me. I live in the UK not Utopia!

    It is wrong... it is not what men "do"!

    So why do we do it?
    Kaz xx

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  3. #3
    I accept myself as is Gillian Gigs's Avatar
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    Right and wrong have there roots in religion and culture. Religion gets the bad wrap, but I think culture has more to do with it as we are now living in a post religious culture. Right and wrong have more to do with someone motives and attitudes. How can anyone know why I dress the way that I do! Can they read my mind, well read this..........

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    I'm very careful when talking about the 'wrongness' of something. Mostly because I do believe that there are many things in this world that are inherently wrong. Being cruel is wrong. Being greedy or selfish is wrong. Harboring bitterness and denying forgiveness is wrong. What do these things have in common? They are crimes against other people. Simply put, we were put on this planet to be in relationship with one another. We need each other.

    And I have struggled with this in relation to crossdressing. Not b/c CDing is wrong in and of itself but b/c of what it might do to the woman I care about with all my heart. I struggle: is it kind to keep a secret? Or is it kind to tell her? Am I selling her short? Or am I sparing her pain?

    I just don't know. All I know is that it hurts...
    I am not who you think I am

  5. #5
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Kaz, you do it because you like to!! There is no other reason! No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on feminine clothes. At least I certainly hope not!! The crossdressers, or whatever they want to be called, on this forum are all the same in that regard. They dress in feminine clothing because they like to, and really for no other reason!! Now I know that I will hear from people telling me that there are many other reasons for crossdressing. But those aren't real reasons, those are excuses!! Yes, I said excuses because that is what they are. You and I, along with all the other crossdressers, put on feminine clothes simply because we like to!! Maybe it is wrong for men to wear feminine clothes, but who says so? Does anybody on this forum think it is wrong for us to wear the feminine things? Women wear some articles of men's clothing, so why can't we wear what we want? I am a crossdresser and I am very happy to be one!! And yes, I do it because I like to!!!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  6. #6
    No safe harbor Saoirse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE="2"]
    Have you ever struggled with this concept of “wrongness” in regards to crossdressing? It seems to be at the heart of everything, including initial reactions, tolerance, or eventual acceptance, since society invariably sees us as people wearing the “wrong” clothes...
    [/SIZE]
    All the time sister, all the time.

    With me, it's not so much what others might think. People should be free to believe what they like. It's the would-be tyrants that concern me. Sadly they're not so very hard to find... from one end of the political spectrum to the other, they abound.

    Color me libertarian.
    Saoirse (seer-shuh)
    Gaelic for "Freedom."

  7. #7
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I have never had a lover, or wife, and I dress in moderation, because I enjoy it, but, I admit, that it is a conflict within, for me, and it is not really natural for men to wear women's clothes, so I am overwhelmingly in the closet. It is no longer considered unnatural for women to wear mens' clothes, though Deut/ 22:5 condemns that, too. For me, dressing up as a lovely lady, in the mirror, is partly a substitute for the wife i never had, and, it is so enjoyable, an escape from the drab, boring world.

    [SIZE="3"]Saoirse, At first, I thought you wrote "call me librarian!" Ha! Libertarian, OK! [/SIZE]

    OK! I need glasses! COLOR me librarian!
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-11-2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Merging multiple posts. Louise, please use the Edit button for added thoughts.

  8. #8
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    wrong would be walking off a cliff. wrong would be trying to kill yourself (as all animals have a need to survive). those are true wrongs.

    In this case it is a learned wrong. You don't come out of the womb in pink or blue and have a built in need to wear a certain type of clothing. These are learned behaviors (as shown by how many other cultures have men in wrap around skirt type apparel). As the song says you have to be carefully taught. And as we know it is easier to learn than un-learn something.

    Morals were instituted for the survival of the society they governed. The don't mix cloth made sense since each type of cloth would wear differently and thus fall apart faster than a pure one fiber garment. Don't eat certain meats because you would get illnesses. In the original Western type societies, there were defined gender roles governed by the golden rule. Those with the gold made the rules. When one has power one tends to make laws to keep that power. As we know, males had the power for hundreds of years. By enforcing strict gender rules they kept that power. I won't get deeply into why I believe certain clothing helped maintain that power but it did.

    Morals also tend to change as needed. The two fiber thing is no longer an issue (everyone reading this is wearing a blend of some sort). The meat is safer now (although certain sects still adhere to old worries...eh..more for me then). We know that monthly cycles are not "unclean". That one in and of itself should be a good example as to why people need to re-think what they have been taught.

    As to the clothing. This is a fairly new thing. No where in the bible does it state exactly what is male or female clothing so how do you determine that? Society made the rules. But then again those rules are fairly fluid. 300 years ago men in wigs were a status symbol. Stockings, make-up, perfumes all were male. The word "pumps" comes from a type of shoe worn in court by pages. As mentioned many societies have men in skirts, even short skirts. 100 years ago baby boys were dressed in dresses and let their hair grow. Some until they were 5 years old.

    So where is it inherently wrong? Because someone somewhere arbitrarily said it was. There isn't an inborn wrongness. The idea that it is wrong is a learned behavior. It isn't a survival rule. Learned behaviors may have a place like killing another is wrong...except. There is always that caveat...except. Your sister would probably say that dressing in a skirt is wrong....except when Mel Gibson does it.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  9. #9
    A Brave Freestyler JohnH's Avatar
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    People do not have a sense of history. They assume that men have always worn pants and no makeup.

    Genetic women have no right to question a man wearing a skirt of a dress when they wear pants. I would say that if your wife forbids you from wearing skirts and dresses you have the right to forbid her from wearing pants.

    I think that there is going to be a sudden change in what men are allowed to wear as far a clothing and makeup are concerned since there have been so little change in the last 100 years or so. Women on the other hand have changed fashions in an orderly manner. Think of two earthquake plates. If they are locked together for years then there will be a violent earthquake to relieve the stress. On the other hand, of the plates can slide easily there will be no violent earthquakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop Louise View Post
    Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I have never had a lover, or wife, and I dress in moderation, because I enjoy it, but, I admit, that it is a conflict within, for me, and it is not really natural for men to wear women's clothes, so I am overwhelmingly in the closet.
    Why is it not natural for men to wear women's clothes? It is simply fashion that men don't wear women's clothes.

    I did get a laugh on Friday when I was wearing a floral dress with makeup and working on my fence in the back yard. I was levering out concrete anchors where the wood post rotted out with a 1.8 meter [6 foot] steel rod and a sledgehammer. The neighbors saw me.

    Johanna
    Last edited by JohnH; 05-09-2011 at 06:27 PM.
    John (Legal name)

  10. #10
    Member Denise69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post

    It is wrong... it is not what men "do"!

    So why do we do it?
    As so many of us has, I mulled this around my head for many of my 40yrs. The conclusion I came to was "right or wrong are strictly social con-strictures provided to us by the multitude of Un-thinking sheep-le" Once I let go of the "wrongness", I became much happier in who I am. While I do not feel sufficiently passable to go out and abroad. I am confident in who I am. I am a Person. Capable of love, pain, suffering and joy. I enjoy embracing both sides of my "self." I enjoy Dressing and presenting as best as possible, both male and Female. It's my "id", so screw wrongness.

    I am Sorry about your spouses feelings and do not mean to belittle them. Been there and understand your pain.
    Denise

  11. #11
    Member Denise69's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=sissystephanie;2487350] There is no other reason! No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to put on feminine clothes.

    And if there is, there are websites for that..... LoL

  12. #12
    My name is Carol Julogden's Avatar
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    I agree that for many of us, our inherent sense of right and wrong has roots in religion that we were taught when young.

    Regarding Deuteronomy, if you check out this page ,written by a rabbi, he presents Deuteronomy as forbidding crossdressing only when it leads to inappropriate heterosexual sexual activity. He mentions that others in the Jewish faith have interpreted Deuteronomy as forbidding women from putting on either men's prayer shawls or the raiment of warriors and warriors putting on women's garments. The current biblical interpretation, in my opinion, has been spun by the Christian churches to reflect Christianity's bias against crossdressing in any form.

    Besides, according to many Jewish theologians (they ought to know, right?), Christians aren't bound by the Old Testament, it's Jewish law only, so why would a Christian get all hung up on Deuteronomy?

    That said, I attended Catholic grade school, and of course, the Old Testament was presented as being something that did apply to Christians, so I got it embedded in me that Deuteronomy condemned me. That's probably part of why I still struggle with guilt sometimes. The other main part of why I have guilt issues is mainly because of my father, who figuratively and literally beat it into me that dressing in girl's/women's clothes was a terrible thing for a boy or man to do.

    Carol
    My name is Carol.

  13. #13
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Carol, I will ask you as I have asked other CD's over the years! Did you dress to please your father, or yourself? Or to put it another way, do you dress now to please yourself or other people? I would bet that you dress to please yourself, as virtually all CD's do! If that is the case, then why would you feel any guilt? There should be none, since all you are doing is pleasing yourself!

    And as far as Deuteronomy is concerned, I have had discussions with both Catholic Priests and an Archbishop regarding that part of the Bible and crossdressing. 2 Priests and the Archbishop all told me that since it was in the Old Testament it no longer applied to the present population!! Catholics are guided by the New Testament through the Pope! That same thought should apply to all Christians!! Excluding the reference to the Pope of course!! That part of Deuteronomy was written to prevent women from entering the men's part of the Church and to keep men from trying to avoid military service by dressing as women!! There is no relation to modern day crossdressing!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  14. #14
    Junior Member andrea69j's Avatar
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    But with the body and blood of Christ, GOD made a new covenant with those who believe and removed the old laws. Deut. claims many things are abominations, among them eating shellfish. ALL of the old laws are abolished, you don't get to pick and choose. - Anything more should be covered in the Religion forum.
    [SIZE="2"]
    I give you a new commandment, that you love one another.
    Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another.
    [/SIZE]
    [SIZE="2"]
    John 13:34
    [/SIZE]
    Find me: Google+

  15. #15
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop Louise
    Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I have never had a lover, or wife, and I dress in moderation, because I enjoy it, but, I admit, that it is a conflict within, for me, and it is not really natural for men to wear women's clothes, so I am overwhelmingly in the closet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah
    So where is it inherently wrong? Because someone somewhere arbitrarily said it was. There isn't an inborn wrongness. The idea that it is wrong is a learned behavior. It isn't a survival rule. Learned behaviors may have a place like killing another is wrong...except.
    Quote Originally Posted by Julogden
    The current biblical interpretation, in my opinion, has been spun by the Christian churches to reflect Christianity's bias against crossdressing in any form.
    [SIZE="2"]Yes, this passage from Deuteronomy crops up from time to time, and I think it is the perfect example of an accepted absolute truth (as I mentioned in the OP). The fact that it exists, and is still referenced to this day, says a lot about the individual who espouses it, and that person is ultimately responsible for attaching certainty to what must be termed uncertain knowledge...

    I was thinking about this last night after reading all these responses. First of all, I wish to say I respect people’s beliefs, and I cannot imagine a world without structure, but when I read these passages from The Bible, I wonder who wrote them, why they were written, and why they were included in what became the Bible as we now know it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Bible a collection of many things, written over the course of many years, authored by many different writers, all with their own agendas? It’s a fact, isn’t it? What did crossdressing constitute in Biblical times? Was it such a threat within society that someone had to label it an abomination, and then write it down for posterity?

    It’s interesting to me that post-modern individuals still reference a text that originated many centuries ago, in a completely different time and place. I mean, way back then there weren’t many people on Earth, life was HARD, and life spans were ruthlessly short. You, or your mother, would be lucky to survive childbirth. There were no amenities as we know today, and just finding enough food or water to survive was a daily problem. Under these conditions, I’m guessing ANY behavior contrary to the common good would be termed frivolous, and thus condemned as an abomination. The fact that we are here, NOW, many generations later, is a testament to the ideas and sacrifices our ancestors made towards the formation of societal structure...

    But, we live in a different time and a different world these days. There are many, many people roaming the Earth, and global communication has ensured that we are at least aware of other cultures and other ideas. Also, thanks to the numerous amenities we now enjoy, one has the time to think about, and entertain, other possibilities in regards to human behavior. I should also mention that, over the preceding centuries, many people have fought and died for freedom of thought, along with freedom of action, challenging these largely ancient precepts that are now favored by fundamentalists. Speaking of fundamentalism, isn’t pragmatism more suitable for today’s post-modern world? You can still read a passage from the Bible and agree with what you (or your peers) think it means, but, at the same time, you can draw upon many other interesting viewpoints that may modify or challenge your previously stubborn stance, and they can all co-exist. It all begins with dropping this notion of “certain” knowledge...

    I think it’s safe to say that there is more information and history regarding human behavior these days, increasing daily, and we can reconsider the nature of crossdressing with the modern mindset we have inherited and subsequently improved upon. Not to do so would be truly abominable...
    [/SIZE]

  16. #16
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Freddy, Well thought out post.

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    The best of both worlds Kathi Lake's Avatar
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    Kaz and Jillian are right in line with what I have experienced. To my wife, what I do is wrong, and don't you dare ask her to explain why - it just is! Case closed. Is there a religious component to it? Sure, but it's not the Deuteronomy conundrum that's at fault to her, as she understands that in context the reason that it was labeled as wrong was so men wouldn't dress as women to get out of 'combat duty' and so women wouldn't dress as men so they could fight (simplified), but instead, it's just wrong as men and women were created to fill certain small niches. Trying to blur the lines between those niches - through clothing or otherwise - is a slippery slope to other more immoral behaviors. She married a man, and she wants one who acts like that.

    Yes, we know otherwise - that we're still who we are, regardless of how we dress - but it has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with feelings.

    Kathi

  18. #18
    The Girl will Out! Kaz's Avatar
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    Kathi,

    Nice one! My wife is a pronounced agnostic if not atheist, so there is no religion in there (unless we imply negative religion as a religion in itself)... she comes from a principles based perspective rather than a values based one, ie it is her belief that their is a fundamental logic to what we believe. Now I admit this may have been empatterned by her upbringing and by definition there may be a religous element to this... in her mind it is all very straightforward.

    For me life is a little more "fluid" and changeable...

    I don't judge others in right and wrong terms...
    Kaz xx

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  19. #19
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Only one thing to say Freddy. I may not always be "right" but I'm never "wrong". 'Nuff said!
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

  20. #20
    Platinum Member kimdl93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop Louise View Post
    Though, in Deut 22:5, it is called abomination, and I do believe in a Higher Power God, and spiritual laws, I.
    Moses also said it was wrong to eat pork, and shell fish. I suppose that poorly cooked pork and spoiled shellfish might have been the motivation for those "divinely inspired" taboos. However, today most pork and shellfish is safe when cooked and served correctly.

    So perhaps it is with cross dressing. Perhaps cross dressing posed some hazard to the wandering Isrealites 3000 years ago. But it appears that any apparent danger inherent in cross dressing long since disappeared from society.

    Since I live in 21st Century America and not 3000 BCE, I can eat port, put cheese (dairy) sauces on shrimp, and cross dress.
    Last edited by kimdl93; 05-10-2011 at 06:00 PM. Reason: completed thought

  21. #21
    Aspiring Member VanessaVW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    Moses also said it was wrong to eat pork, and shell fish. I suppose that poorly cooked pork and spoiled shellfish might have been the motivation for those "divinely inspired" taboos. However, today most pork and shellfish is safe when cooked and served correctly.
    I love pork and shellfish. I also wear mixed fabric drab clothing. Nope, I don't have tassels sewn in the four corners of my garment. Hmmmmm.

  22. #22
    Member Tammy V's Avatar
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    My wife is now about 80% onboard with my crossdressing. In fact I am dressed right now and she will be back in awhile to watch tv with me, but this will only be the thrid time this happened. I told her last October and this is still relatively new to her. Two days ago she said it was wrong and if it wasnt wrong to dress I would do it at work or in front of my old friends or my parents. If its not wrong, why do you hide it she asks. I just don't think its everybodys business is why I hide it from certain people. Most of us that don't transition hide from some of the people in their lives. I am sure I don't know everything about some of these people and some of what they do might be considered wrong. Bottom line is nobody is getting hurt and most of need to dress or we probably wouldn't so how is it wrong?

  23. #23
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    I don't eat pork or shellfish. All those things are scavengers, and it is also unhealthy to eat animals of prey. He made the bloody creatures, so He knows which ones are unhealthy, as the bottom feeders and swine eat all the bad stuff. Cows have for stomachs. Farmers have had heart attacks, died, and the pigs ate the bodies! "Clean" animals are grain eaters. Shellfish eat the cruc that goes to the bottom. Cross dressing is another ballgame, with a number of reasons, and some of us were "set up", from early experiences. We don't eat women's clothes! Ha!

  24. #24
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    so...do you eat chicken? They scavenge. and they eat bugs. Technically plants also scavenge by using decaying carbon matter as food. Pigs are omnivores they eat anything, just like humans do, they don't chose to eat garbage. But that isn't the question here. The question was why is it wrong? And just because some old man somewhere wrote it on scroll doesn't explain it.

    I am still waiting for someone to explain "why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong, that was Frederique's question. Because it is bright and colorful? Most males in the animal world are bright and colorful so that isn't it. It kills others? No...not that. It takes food from people's mouths? Nope. It makes you gay...yeah...uh...no. It spreads disease? C'mon somebody give me something here to work with besides a book. Tell me how a man is a dress changes the course of the world and how it functions day to day.
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  25. #25
    Member joanna marie's Avatar
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    I wonder who wrote them, why they were written, and why they were included in what became the Bible as we now know it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Bible a collection of many things, written over the course of many years, authored by many different writers, all with their own agendas? It’s a fact, isn’t it? What did crossdressing constitute in Biblical times? Was it such a threat within society that someone had to label it an abomination, and then write it down for posterity?
    My World History Professor always said that" if someone made a law against something than it must have been a PROBLEM in that society at that time in History"

    That is why you find water rights outlined in the Bible

    There must have been a lot of people crossdressing in bibical times in order to write this into scripture
    Or it could have been one man that was worried about the order of society being challanged by free thinking people

    Saying that God doesn't want you to crossdress that has more authority than saying I don't want you to cossdress.
    Last edited by joanna marie; 05-11-2011 at 12:08 AM.

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