Much ado about “wrongness”

[Pythos]

IN the time of Moses there was a religious sect that as part of their rituals both sexes took on looks and behaviors of the other sex. Along with this, in the tribes under Moses, there remained the customs of the Hebrews. The Hebrews were sexually segregated. What would happen is WOMEN would dress like men so they could go over to the male areas and have illicit sex (I am sure some men did the opposite). Then there were the men that dressed as women to get out of fighting.

As can see there were many reason for deut 22:5's writing. But there were many other laws in Deut that NO ONE pays mind to these days, and many have the word "abomination" in them.

Every educated discussion I have read or had concerning this verse says it has NOTHING to do with modern day crossdressing. It had to do with infidelity, adultry, sex outside of marriage, and cowardice. If people actually followed the old testement there would be MANY MANY dead people. Newt Gingritch, Donald Trump, Madonna, to name a few would be dead for their adulterous actions. I would be dead for mouthing off at my parents when I was younger.

Thank the maker we do not follow that old book.

[Jodi M]

I think to our society crossdressing is wrong because everyone wants to look at a person and see either a woman or a man and it is not conceiveable that a person could be both masculine and feminine and dress either way. "We like too", yes we do. It is because there is a feminine part to who we are and we are being that part, just as we are being our masculine part when we dress as a male.

[shesadvl]

so...do you eat chicken? They scavenge. and they eat bugs. Technically plants also scavenge by using decaying carbon matter as food. Pigs are omnivores they eat anything, just like humans do, they don't chose to eat garbage. But that isn't the question here. The question was why is it wrong? And just because some old man somewhere wrote it on scroll doesn't explain it.

I am still waiting for someone to explain "why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong, that was Frederique's question. Because it is bright and colorful? Most males in the animal world are bright and colorful so that isn't it. It kills others? No...not that. It takes food from people's mouths? Nope. It makes you gay...yeah...uh...no. It spreads disease? C'mon somebody give me something here to work with besides a book. Tell me how a man is a dress changes the course of the world and how it functions day to day.

yes i eat chicken..... brek kek.... I am into my vegetables as well I wasnt going to get into this lol but i googled your question:

"why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong

which was Frediriques question:

perhaps you may find an answer within there.... with the following...

Search ResultsMoral standard - Nov 1896 - Google Books Result
Popular Science - Vol. 50 - 148 pages - Magazine
It thus happens that distinctions of right and wrong constantly refer to ... the ceremonial code habitually passes over the inherent qualities of actions. ...
books.google.co.nz/books?id=gCMDAAAAMBAJ... - More book results »

Commentaries on the laws of England: in four books - Google Books Result
Sir William Blackstone, William Draper Lewis, William Blackstone Collection (Library of Congress) - 2008 - History - 2064 pages
God himself cannot make right wrong or wrong right. Right and wrong are eternal ... in starting with the assertion that the law of nature is the will of the ...
books.google.co.nz/books?isbn=158477763X...

(the above makes for interesting reading)


With how i see right and wrong.... its your right to do what ever pleases you,.. eat what you want,... dress how you want, who cares if you dress in a dress ,
not me thats that persons right,

why do Priests,.... doesnt matter what denomination wears a dress,....lol yeh ok...ill get smacked for that one ,...
but thats a vicars wife's outlook at her husband who chooses to be one (a vicar) and prance around in a dress......

as we understand the way we.. were/are bought up,... it is embedded n us the right and wrong ,..whats moral and whats not, i was given an open mind and I see things as I wish to see,
believe in how i see things even thought until we are able to use our own minds to see the difference of right and wrong, therein we had moral upbringings,
we adhered to as children... no matter that some of the things in those growing years we thought were wrong.... as we got older we understood them better.

here are a couple of things i found just in asking the question out on the internet.....

What's the difference between something being wrong and something being inherently wrong?

What exactly does inherently wrong mean? This can also apply to inherently funny.
Smoking is wrong. Society today dictates it. But society back in the 1950's embraced smoking as cool. Everyone did it.

Murder is inherently wrong. It is wrong today and has been wrong throughout history.

• The saying; the right way, the wrong way and the Army way pops to mind. For an answer, or action or whatever to be inherently wrong there is an inaccurate response given in a negative environment, which could be inherently funny as well.

• inherent~
existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute: an inherent distrust of strangers.

• Interesting question -- I'd never really thought about it. I think inherently wrong means something is wrong in absolutely every single conceivable circumstance.

• inherently wrong - the nature of the issue is wrong but it's not readily apparent or evident

or is this the real answer...

God himself cannot make right wrong or wrong right. Right and wrong are eternal ...

have i lost the plot laffing...hope not...... I wonder that last comment could be the answer.... "its not readily apparent or evident..."

I am sure if you want to "why" perhaps thats an eternal question as wel Lori laffing....:p

Irene shesadvl yup thats me



EDIT: I also read Deuteronomy 22:5

I cracked up you have to read it with my wicked sense of humour.... laffing... lipz are zipped...

an NO there are no tassles at the four corners of any of my garments...laffing they could be worn elsewhere laffing :

[Joanne f]

There is no law of nature that makes anything wrong but the difference between nature and humans is that humans have this thing called "consciousness" we are aware or at least meant to be aware of our effects on other things as other things have an effect on us , we can make a conscious decision on whether to do something or not and feel the consequence of it unlike a chicken that will just eat a bug and think no more about it .
So we are aware of certain things that are expected of us and we are aware of how this may affect others because we are conscious of this and it is this consciousness that creates this right and wrong .
Change the way on how people consciously thing about something and you change the way they think on whether it is right or wrong .

[SusieK]

It's not what it is, it's what it represents - and that is seen as a threat. My wife, on a rational level, is OK with crossdressing, as long as it is other people and their lifestyle choices. With her husband it's a different matter, and may represent something else and therefore becomes wrong. Within the wider community, the difference between the genders is something that people cling to (men in particular), in terms of roles and sexual attraction. To be seen as fundamentally secure in your masculinity is to be respected by your piers, and anything that challenges this is to be ridiculed/feared (where in this instance both these emotions/reactions have the same root cause). We all carry around in our heads a model of the world around us, and when things contradict that world-view, one of the ways to react is with revulsion at the wrongness of it.

It's like the he/she/it thing. Rather than treating you as a human being, people suddenly don't have the faintest idea what you are. This confusion is not a comfortable feeling, and a natural reaction is to lash out against it.

[shesadvl]

So we are aware of certain things that are expected of us and we are aware of how this may affect others because we are conscious of this and it is this consciousness that creates this right and wrong .
Change the way on how people consciously think about something and you change the way they think on whether it is right or wrong .

if that were so easy joanne

[Alyla]

Frederique,

You always provoke me with your viewing of the world, and I must take my time and think of what you say. Thank You, for stimulating my thoughts.

There was once a 20th century American philosopher named Richard Rorty, and he challenged this idea of eternal truths, which form the basis for moral absolutes and the concept of a soul. I wish to discuss the former, rather than the latter. It goes something like this:

“When we say ‘I know in my heart it is wrong,’ we assume there is an eternal truth about wrongness.” Also, “...we assume that the knowledge we have is certain knowledge, but absolutely certain knowledge of how things are is not possible.” However, “...we cannot find any eternal truths about ethics,” because “What we know is a matter of conversation and social practice.” Therefore, “There is nothing deep down inside us except what we have put there ourselves.” In other words, we are responsible for harboring this idea of wrongness.

I have to agree, for the most part those things we do wrong are our own, we own them, they are our own projection, our own theatre of our own absurdity. I can find no evil in things, possessions, or attributes of another, I don’t conceptualize inherent evil. Though I have been told of it. I am having trouble linking moral absolutes, and the concept of the soul, I don’t feel them to be a certain knowledge. Or a rhetorical eternal truth. Very few things have been shown to be eternal, infinite perhaps, by not eternal.I think my soul is infinite. Both on the quantum level and on the larger cosmic level. In this brief moment of time on this rock it nary matters what I wear, and We all should be taken seriously regardless of our preferred choice of attire.

To Mr, Rorty, we only become aware of something through conceptualizing it, and our concepts are learned through language. Our perceptions are therefore inextricably tangled up with the habitual ways that we use language to divide up the world. When we decide what counts as knowledge, our judgment rests not on how strongly a “fact” correlates to the world, so much as whether it is something that “society lets us say.

Language, I think is at the heart of the question. The definitions of our language are not eternal; they are in a constant state of flux. It is where we find pronouns with gender implications, even the romantic languages of all things give verbs gender qualifications. I wonder of the implications of this over time, and in a human’s ability to conceptualize their world with these indoctrinated values. There is needed a grand ability to step outside of one’s ego or centre and view things without the implied prejudices of our societies(learned behavior). Not an easy thing to do. Alas judgment seems so restrictive a concept, so final; perhaps evaluation would be a most satisfactory word to use because we may modify our evaluations of things over the infinity of time.

If you can take away, or reject, the moral standards that have been accepted and cultivated by society, you will be able to question this idea of “wrongness.” You weren’t born with it, but you were born into a world of absolutes where many people feel, in their “heart of hearts” that something like crossdressing is inherently “wrong.” Must you believe that there is some truth about life, or some absolute moral law, that you are violating, in order to maintain even a shred of human decency? That seems WRONG to me, but I’m a crossdresser, operating within my own set of moral absolutes. I AM, therefore I dress, irrespective of the consequences, or the accepted, unquestioned moral truths of others...

Actually, I feel I was born into a world of past absolutes, the values of my phylogeny, the values and constructs of my human predecessors. I feel we, the new stakeholders of our future have an obligation to evolve into a new creation, with a new liturgy for a new world. The heretics of the world, who challenge old values, to create new ways of seeing the physical world they live in have always taken the knife. I feel maybe that is an absolute, I hope it is not, but it maybe proven overtime to be so. “Life is not fair.” I have taught my children this so they are prepared for the ironies of there existence. I have excepted the fact that there are more geniuses in the world offering advice than there needs to be. I think perfection is a destination never to be reached but something g to aspire to. I believe there is a theory of everything, where the physical and metaphysical will live in harmony, and quantum mechanics will be unified with relativity. But these are beliefs and wishes I hope the world will aspire to.

I have implied some things to be absolute here, I need no support on these, they are beliefs, improvable, but beliefs none the less. Perhaps there will be a day when are language will evolve out of prejudice and misogyny, and the twin spirits of the soul may unify. But enuff of my personal ramblings I fear only to stir to many motions and overflow the pot of defensiveness. It is time to rest and breathe deeply of the spring air, sit in the dappled light of the forest and actually see the trees.

Alyla

[kimdl93]

Safe in the hand of one disposing Pow'r,
Or in the natal, or the mortal hour.
All Nature is but Art, unknown to thee;
All chance, direction, which thou canst not see
All discord, harmony not understood,
All partial evil, universal good:
And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
[U]One truth is clear, whatever is, is right.[/U]

[Sophie86]

I'm not sure which is worse, people like Rorty who can't discover any objective basis for ethical principles at all, or the people who think they have found it in the 2000+ yr old decrees of an imaginary being. Given the vagaries of Biblical interpretation, I think it all comes down to the same thing. It's just that the latter like to pretend that their whimsical interpretations give them a source of absolute truth.

[Alice Torn]

[SIZE="3"]I enjoy women's clothes as much as any here, do. To be a human being, is to be in conflict. Pigging out, and gluttony is wrong. Driving drunk is wrong. And, just about anything can become wrong, or an addiction/compulsion. Crossdressing for the sake of driving another person or mate crazy, would be wrong. Or, playing stereos so loud, that your neighborhood shakes, is wrong, or a million other things that hurt others or ourselves. I know that I am just a knuckle dragger, if I don't use self-control, in dressing, or anything, and the Big Ten were given to put restraints on human nature, lest we all be out of control knuckle draggers. I may not always agree with all of you, but, i respect your right to your opinion, and there is always a lot of thought, and truth to everyone's posts. Thanks Freddy, for the stimulating thread![/SIZE]

[Frédérique]

I am still waiting for someone to explain "why" it is an inherent wrong. What law of nature makes it wrong...

[SIZE="2"]The thing is, it’s a difficult issue to come to terms with, and there are no clear answers. I was hoping to mention this in the OP, but many things (or ideas) are taken for granted simply because they have existed for so long – if longevity is present or sustained, it must be correct, whatever it may be. We tend to worship things that have stood the test of time, regardless of their relevance in this day and age. Perhaps some people read ancient texts and find verification for their own ideas or prejudices, meaning a kind of confirmation that modern thinking cannot satisfy...

I was going to add something else about Biblical times, namely the fact that women were second-class citizens. That may or may not relate to MtF crossdressing as such, or have something to do with famous Biblical passages, but it’s worth considering...[/SIZE]

Right and wrong are eternal...

[SIZE="2"]I know, it's a quote of a quote...

In my opinion, right and wrong are human inventions, as is the concept of eternal. The rest of the natural world just carries on as usual, while we stop to think about it. Hooray for us!

“Man is an invention of recent date.” (Michael Foucault)[/SIZE]

I'm not sure which is worse, people like Rorty who can't discover any objective basis for ethical principles at all, or the people who think they have found it in the 2000+ yr old decrees of an imaginary being.

[SIZE="2"]Oh, I wouldn’t dismiss contemporary philosophy, or any philosophy for that matter, with such casual brusqueness. I’m just interested in finding out where (or why) an idea of wrongness, specifically as it pertains to crossdressing, originated, and why was it allowed to perpetuate unchecked? The passage from the Bible may or may not be the best starting point, but it’s worth examining, wouldn’t you say? Since we’re still troubled by this nagging idea of "wrongness," and the lack of understanding it fosters, I wish to frame the question in the thinking of my own time and draw upon any or all resources at hand. I just know that there is a completely different, perhaps relatively innocent, explanation for the passage in the Bible, but if you don’t care about writing that has given form and substance to ethics in our current era you are doomed to ignorance about subsequent human behavior...

Like it or not, “2000+ year-old decrees of an imaginary being” have shaped human history, and we crossdressers live with the consequences. As 21st century individuals, we KNOW there is nothing inherently wrong with crossdressing, but to someone outside of our community this informed attitude either falls on deaf ears, or causes friction with those who are certain they are RIGHT. I honestly don’t know how one can change attitudes about wrongness, since everyone seems to believe in the certainty of knowledge, meaning the knowledge they have chosen to hold on to and believe. People decide what constitutes right or wrong, based on the language they use, or the social interaction that houses that language, but I wish to say that wrongness makes the world go round – you need a concept of rightness for wrongness to exist, and someone, somewhere, at some point in time years ago, made that decision FOR us. We are free to overturn this idea, but people still live in the past, meaning a past where there were few alternatives...[/SIZE]

Thanks Freddy, for the stimulating thread!

[SIZE="2"]I’m surprised it became this stimulating, Louise! [/SIZE]

[NicoleScott]

I have enjoyed this discussion, but now it's time to make up, dress up, and eat some bacon-wrapped scallops.

[Kaz]

Tha's a good point Nicole... I just want to thank Freddy for yet again stimulating a debate that potentially changes underlying perceptions. Genius!

BTW... sorry I have to say it... if you were a member of a tribal, nomadic people living in the desert and in very hot conditions in the day (cold at night), with no refridgeration, and not a lot to do for a lot of the time apart from finding water and food... believe me... you would not eat pork or shellfish and you would worry about your women (if you were a man)...

A lot of this is steeped in history and practicalities. A lot of religious belief is code for living in certain times. We also have a code for our times. Is CDing wrong?

[Fab Karen]

"Wrong?" Who says? Why? Compare: A woman wearing pants is "wrong." A woman doing "men's work" is "wrong." A white person & a black person having a relationship is "wrong."
Or should we just use the "witch test" method? If she drowns, innocent. Floats, guilty & sentenced to death.

btw, it helps to control people if you take a book allegedly called the words of god, and re-write it to suits the desires of kings & church-leaders ( it's happened many times ).

"We must have order" -thinking used by a guy with a funny moustache, who used a symbol of good luck on flags & uniforms which later got referred to as a "crooked cross." People don't remember him kindly for some reason...

[docrobbysherry]

When I was quite young, I developed a deep fear of dying. Thinking that religious teaching mite help me, my agnostic folks took us kids to a few different churches and Sunday schools.

I listened to all the biblical and ancient tales, parables, and "how to's" patiently. I decided that believing in God and Heaven were GOOD THINGS! Because even if they were imaginary, I wouldn't know! So, whether or not they r real, if I believed, I'd WIN!:D

That was some 50 years ago. I've been TRYING to make myself believe the entire time! And, I STILL CAN'T!

I've only been dressing for 14 years and for the last 5, I've been telling myself there's nothing wrong with THAT! :brolleyes:

Much like heaven, I WANT to believe, but can't believe that dressing is OK EITHER!

[ReineD]

Let's try this on for size.

Many CDers struggle with the concept of whether the CDing is right or wrong (see Doc's post as an example). By the time someone has fully accepted themselves including those who will transition, the question is resolved. It becomes the right thing to do, from those who CDress to those who transition.

I propose that for the gender variant, the question of right or wrong is closely tied to the degree of imbalance that exists until full self-acceptance is reached. There's an internal gender push/pull that is difficult to reconcile, because we do live in an external gender-binary world. And like it or not, genetic males have genetic male hormones, on top of having been socialized as males. That's a huge condition to overcome! Is is surprising that so many, perhaps like you, struggle with other people's opinions as to whether it is right or wrong?

Other than perhaps the few TSs who know from childhood they are women, if it is so difficult for most TGs to reach self-acceptance no matter where they sit along the gender spectrum, it is bound to be even more difficult for the outsiders who are asked to accept, and further embrace, the existence of something they've not experienced and further that they cannot see.

Frédérique, you've written a beautiful essay on the conceptualization of wrong and how it is reinforced through language, but at the end of it all acceptance among our loved ones can only be reached once the concept of the transgender condition is irrefutably recognized. This takes time, lots of exposure, and a willingness to go against the norms. If you will accept that until then, the people who are not in the know will at times struggle with the "wrongness" of it all, then it may help you to cease struggling so?

Most people do fear the unknown. This is why so many spouses and loved ones find safety in their refusal to accept the concept, like Kaz's wife. If there were more TGs, say even 25% of the population for example, no one would question whether it is right or wrong. It would just be.

[Frédérique]

I've only been dressing for 14 years and for the last 5, I've been telling myself there's nothing wrong with THAT!
Much like heaven, I WANT to believe, but can't believe that dressing is OK EITHER!

[SIZE="2"]Which reminds me...

I don’t wish to belabor this topic, but there is something underlying this concept of “wrongness,” namely gambling on the existence of a supreme being. You cannot be certain that God exists, and it is also impossible to prove that he/she/it does NOT exist (just ask Bertrand Russell). Meanwhile, a person here on Earth does not know how to proceed – do you carry out your existence with moral certitude, in anticipation of an afterlife where your future participation depends on doing the “right” thing right now, or do you gamble that life is finite, and you need to enjoy it while you can, all the while ignoring signals that something you’re doing may be WRONG in some way? It’s not fair, is it? I mean, you want to do the RIGHT thing, and not give in to any temptation, meaning existing as a moral being to ensure your eventual reward – in this regard, crossdressing represents a problem, either by doing it, or being aligned with it in some way, and it is seen (unjustly) as wrongness. Why? Well, somebody said so...

Tell me, what was going on before this moral argument began? Did someone decide that certain forms of behavior were correct, and others wrong, and this person was able to impress his views on the populace via threats and/or violence? Thus began civilization, I assume, and a promise of human glory, but the price was steep – we are still bound by suppression and asphyxiated by ethics. Maybe this meant something many years ago, but I think we’ve “made it” and its time to relax a little – not only physically, but also mentally. I wish someone would right the wrongness that has been outlined and reinforced by the architects of society, and, of course, I'm talking specifically about the perception people have that crossdressing is wrong...[/SIZE]

I propose that for the gender variant, the question of right or wrong is closely tied to the degree of imbalance that exists until full self-acceptance is reached. There's an internal gender push/pull that is difficult to reconcile, because we do live in an external gender-binary world. And like it or not, genetic males have genetic male hormones, on top of having been socialized as males. That's a huge condition to overcome! Is is surprising that so many, perhaps like you, struggle with other people's opinions as to whether it is right or wrong?

Other than perhaps the few TSs who know from childhood they are women, if it is so difficult for most TGs to reach self-acceptance no matter where they sit along the gender spectrum, it is bound to be even more difficult for the outsiders who are asked to accept, and further embrace, the existence of something they've not experienced and further that they cannot see.

[SIZE="2"]I wish to say I do not look in the mirror and think, “This is wrong.” That has thankfully never happened, but when I was about to begin crossdressing many years ago all of these myriad ideas of wrongness and rightness filled my mind. I recall wondering IF I could successfully dress as a woman, not should I dress as a woman – there was more of an attachment to my ever-present masculinity, reinforced by familial pressure, other than any feeling of inherent wrongness, but as soon as I gathered enough courage to experiment, I dressed in women’s clothing and looked in the mirror. Luckily, I liked what I saw, and any idea of doing something “wrong” dissipated like early morning fog – I also REALLY enjoyed pushing my masculinity aside, if only for a short time. Self-acceptance was immediate, in my case, but I am, by definition, just a MtF crossdresser, nothing more and certainly nothing less...

This idea of wrongness being linked to visibility is very interesting, and I hadn’t considered it until now. If something is hidden, for whatever reason, it MUST be wrong, correct? I don’t feel the need to share everything I do with casual acquaintances, or even my best friends, so my inherent invisibility springs from that, and not any “taboo” aspect about crossdressing. This is a cruel paradox – I’m hiding my crossdressing from others because I assume they carry this innate ability to detect wrongness (see above), and they will censure me accordingly. On the other hand, any desire I may have to become more visible is held in check by my understandable fear of these misinformed purveyors of ethical behavior, all of whom are way more visible than I can ever hope to be. I could argue incessantly for justice, but confrontation is not in my makeup (pun intended). All I can do is create my little heaven on Earth, here and now, and enjoy the dwindling time that is left to me, dressing as I see fit...
[/SIZE]

[Kaz]

Freddie, you articulate so well many of my underlying emotions and thereby my emotive beliefs

[susan2010]

A very thoughtful post, as usual Frederique. When looking for absolute truths and universal principles I have two guidelines: first, The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and second, Immanuel Kant's "Categorical Imperative", which is a little complicated to explain here, but largely ends up at the same place as The Golden Rule.

[ReineD]

Frédérique, there are CDers who have come out to selected family and friends and who seem to navigate this quite well! Of course this depends on many factors: age, lifestyle, place of dwelling. The point is they are no longer invisible, and they are accepted by the selected few (or perhaps more) for being who they are, in addition to moving freely among the unknown masses.


As an aside:

[SIZE="2"]Meanwhile, a person here on Earth does not know how to proceed – do you carry out your existence with moral certitude, in anticipation of an afterlife where your future participation depends on doing the “right” thing right now, or do you gamble that life is finite, and you need to enjoy it while you can, all the while ignoring signals that something you’re doing may be WRONG in some way?[/SIZE]

Why not believe that life is finite, but at the same time live according to the inherent goodness within, in order to be at peace with your conscience?

[Alice Torn]

King Solomon wrote, in Ecclesistes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no activity or planning, or wisdom, in the grave where you are going." No dressing in the dust of the earth, so, we better enjoy it now! By, the way, I do not believe in going to "heaven", or some manmade everburning "hell", when i die. A future resurrection, into a world ruled by love instead of cruelty, yes. Earlier poster is right on! The golden rule, for all us eathlings!

[Frédérique]

Why not believe that life is finite, but at the same time live according to the inherent goodness within, in order to be at peace with your conscience?

[SIZE="2"]I’m not in conflict with my conscience, but others may be – I know it’s possible to enjoy life without being barricaded by feelings of wrongness...

You know, we could have a VERY lengthy discussion about this word “goodness!” [/SIZE]

[kimdl93]

In the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.....

[ReineD]

Couldn't resist posting this. One of my all-time favorites!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4p8qxGbpOk

[kimdl93]

pretty amazing, even now