Well, O.K. - but she has to get in line behind Camilla Parker-Bowles, Prince Charles' main squeeze...
Well, O.K. - but she has to get in line behind Camilla Parker-Bowles, Prince Charles' main squeeze...
Awww Leslie, you aren't being nice at all! Are you implying that if a woman is not the picture perfect media beauty ideal then she is manly?
Also, many of your examples are of older women. It makes sense that older women lose their younger, more feminine looks due to the loss of estrogen, just like older men lose their virile looks due to reduced testosterone. The gender gap in terms of physical appearance reduces as we all age.
Even then, I bet that if you had ever spent some time with any of these women, their amazing spirits would shine through and you would have gotten to see them for the beautiful women they are (political differences where applicable notwithstanding). :p
Edit an hour later: maybe I got your intent wrong. If so, then please just ignore this post.
Last edited by ReineD; 04-08-2011 at 02:13 AM.
Reine
I with everyone who says who cares. It's your life so do what makes you happy. I probably will never pass as feminine but I already have a date set for my first outing. I'm actively preparing for it.
I have never been out in public and would need a professional to do my makeup, but I would still feel that I stood out even if I didn't. My insecurity would probably give me away. I am only 5'5" which sucks as a male, but I hope that will help en femme.
I've been able to pass as a female before, so long as I'm wearing long sleeves. Me personally, there is absolutely no way I would have ever gone out if I couldn't pass as a woman. That's the thing that scares me the most, someone looking at me and knowing I'm a dude. Terrifies me...
I am always very scared about being out and not passing. It is what drives me to stay in hotel rooms and creep around corridors. A couple of years ago I found a place to stay that had a seperate entrance and exit from reception and went out a lot - it was great! Once out I am okay, but it is the reception thing that does it for me.
There is a guy at work who has recently come out. He certainly does not pass, but he is certain about the path he is taking. He doesn't like groups (so won't join this site), and doen't want a "femme" name.
I couldn't do this. I am not that strong. I envy those that are and we should support them wholeheartedly!
Kaz xx
__________________________________________________ ____________
This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
kaz if i could play minitherapy with you i'd say...first off , you look great..really really natural and "female"...there is nothing in your picture that hints male to me...second..what you really afraid of happening...you say you are not that strong..
I promise you that if you were clocked, it's a smile or smirk..over the years i was afraid (prior to transition of course)...I lurked in parking lots, turned my back on people, etc...
i was laughed at...mocked by a passerby who looked at me and smirked and said "nice dress" and burst out laughing...i was mocked by a clerk "are you kidding me??"... i was yelled at across the street "hey tranny!! hey you!! hey dude!! " etc..
nobody was more scared than me...you can do it..and before you tell me how big you are i have been out at 6'2" 235 lbs...hairy arms and legs...it took me awhile..but in the end you just practice babysteps..and soon you are shopping on the high street and having people call you maam in between any awkward moments you may have.
also read alexia's point...i am a believer that the fear word is really better thought of as the "guilt and shame" words...its so prevalent in the ts and cd world, even the concept of starting a thread like this oozes shame..
It's not easy to deal with an issue that causes you to feel like you are a lower form of life, but that's just what shame does to you... and the closer you are to feeling this is your identity (rather than your fetish or a turn on), the worse it is, the closer it is to your identity, the more you want to go out and express yourself, and the more you try to avoid the horrible feeling that your identity is not working out there in the real world....by standing up to whatever happens, you feed your identity, and you learn (even though it can be rough) to just be yourself, and the rewards are really wonderful if you can do it..
I don't fear going out anymore.that passed (pardon the pun) a long time ago.Last time out my Wife and I were out we went to more mainstream places e.g. Pizza Hut,and it was an eye opener to us both,no-one batted an eye lid and this place was full of ppl from across the board age wise,inc youngsters.It has given me a boost to my self confidence,even going out on my own in Glasgow's and Edinburgh's busiest streets.I don't "pass" but I do my best to do as good a job as I can.
But Even though I am positive on the whole these days,Sometimes though I still have nagging doubts that when thinking of maybe taking it further still.Like going to the theatre,or dining out in a Nice Restaurant that maybe It's the one's that do Pass that are better perceived by people,I suppose the best way to test that theory is the Wife and I should get the gladrags on and have a Night out
Sophie
We look to Scotland,for all our Ideas of Civilisation-Voltaire
========================================
A woman who loves to wear beautiful clothes is like a flower.
A man who loves to emulate these women is a special flower-a roseFacebook:Sophie Johnson
Hi Reine,Originally Posted by ReineD
Awww Leslie, you aren't being nice at all! Are you implying that if a woman is not the picture perfect media beauty ideal then she is manly?
Also, many of your examples are of older women. It makes sense that older women lose their younger, more feminine looks due to the loss of estrogen, just like older men lose their virile looks due to reduced testosterone. The gender gap in terms of physical appearance reduces as we all age.
Even then, I bet that if you had ever spent some time with any of these women, their amazing spirits would shine through and you would have gotten to see them for the beautiful women they are (political differences where applicable notwithstanding). :p
Edit an hour later: maybe I got your intent wrong. If so, then please just ignore this post.
I totally agree with you, and that is exactly my point - maybe I just didn't articulate it properly.
Beauty absolutely is only skin deep, and the GG's I referenced above are all amazing and accomplished women in their own right and terrific role models. And what makes their successes even more remarkable is the fact that they couldn't fall back on smashing good looks to be recognized and get ahead in life despite the fact that we have become so shallow and celebrity-obsessed as a society that we often judge people by their appearance and "star-power" first and foremost. It is this type of sexism that these ladies overcame through intellect, ability, drive, and sheer willpower, and which makes them all the more remarkable as a result.
Prince Charles chose "homely" Camilla over Princess Diana because he connected with her on a far deeper level than looks, breeding, or "wow" factor alone, unlike that neurotic, vain, ditsy, and publicity-seeking clotheshorse whom he married first partly to meet the public's expectations of what a fairy-tale princess should be. Sadly, she only had looks, youth, and celebrity status going for her but not much else, and he finally came to his senses. And even the public finally came around and recognized that maybe - just maybe - Camilla really was the right person for him after all despite all those snide remarks about her alleged frumpy style of dress and "horse face", and that they truly fulfilled each other as the soul-mates that they were underneath it all.
That's why I say that while some of us gurlz may not qualify as beauty queens (or even come close!) in the traditional sense, there is no need for us to hide in the shadows because we feel that we might not "pass". Many GG's don't "pass" either when measured by that yardstick, but they refuse to let that hold them back, are proud of who and what they are, and still manage to live their lives to the fullest. And you know what? - When people see that positive attitude they respond in kind, and somehow, looks then suddenly become totally irrelevant as to how they are perceived. And so it is for us, if only we have the courage to challenge ourselves in this way...
TgirlSophie & Kaz, when I first started dating my SO she wasn't going out in public, other than her TG support group meetings. Over the next 2 years she made a concerted effort to do so, beginning with regular evenings at our local GLBT alternative night club. Sometimes she would just go on her own and sit there for a few hours while sipping a diet Coke (she doesn't drink). And then she began going to gay friendly areas in a city a few hours away: restaurants, cafes, etc. She then expanded to going to art galleries, more mainstream restaurants, cafes, shopping, bookstores, grocery stores, etc, but not in our home town. At first she would check these places out first in guy mode, but this is no longer necessary.
We only had just one rule: if either she or I ever felt uncomfortable with the vibes of whatever place we were at, we'd simply leave, no questions asked. I've got to say that it never happened.
Now she did make some minor changes to her appearance in order to feel more comfortable out: laser facial hair removal (just a few sessions since her beard had gray in it, and the laser only works on dark beard :p), pierced ears, growing her own nails, plucked eyebrows but not overly so, shaved arms & upper chest, etc. She also has naturally long, curly hair that he ties back in boy mode.
She discovered after a few months of going out, to her surprise, that her fears were unwarranted. And just as everyone else says who are out in the mainstream, we seldom have anyone say anything to us. Most people don't notice but if they do and stare, this doesn't mean they are judging us negatively. I like to think they are just trying to figure us out, and if they could, they would ask us a lot of questions.A few people smirk, but they are easily stared down.
Leslie ... fair 'nuff!
As to Camilla, look up pictures of her when she first met prince Charles. She was kinda cute! I was also surprised to see a rather nice, photograph of young Golda Meir.
Last edited by ReineD; 04-08-2011 at 12:31 PM.
Reine
I think the one who "owns" it is Nicole BassAnd you tall, muscular "gurls" worry about not passing??? Wendy "owns" it - so should you.
OMG! Hans, Franz, and...Nicole??? No girly-men here - LOL!I think the one who "owns" it is Nicole Bass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Ko3fODp3c&NR=1
Could this person be someone who is new to crossdressing and really didn't have anyone to help them with presentation? I know that most of us see one thing in the mirror but in reality it is really not the truth and not what other people will see. I like to wear sexy clothes but I really don't look very sexy in them. Some of the things I wear are not age appropriate but if I ever pick up the nerve to out I may be guilty of wearing some of them because it is all I have. Maybe it was the day he picked up the nerve to out in public for the first time and what he saw in the mirror was enough to make him feel like he could pull it off. I applaud him for having the courage to go out and try. That is more than I can say for myself.
Jeannie
Not looking like a convincing GG is what stops me from going out...
Here's a pic of me out at the mall about 2 weeks ago.... I think i looked great and i'm not wearing a wig or make up!
http://twitpic.com/4tsjbx
and here's another one of me at the mall in January!
http://twitpic.com/3tcmsl
Shaq, I think you look great... very cute.
Thank you i'm glad u think so <3Shaq, I think you look great... very cute.
I agree that Charles finally ended up with the right person for him. You give him credit for coming to his senses, but dragging Diana through the mud wasn't necessary. He married someone he knew wasn't right for him. She did the same. She had looks, youth, and celebrity. He had celebrity.
She was a fairy-tale princess. The problem was, she didn't have a fairy-tale prince.
The new couple can now go to a costume party as a horse - no costume needed. Both ends of the horse are now together.
It's this kind of attitude that ensures I'll hide inside forever. I don't do makeup nor wig - don't really want to - but I can enjoy being dressed to the nines. And want to be around other people while looking that way. But when other cross-dressers say I shouldn't, how in the world could I ever do so?
Just Me, the only thing that can keep you or anyone else from getting out is yourself. The truth is noone knows when they go out each time if they will be accepted, rejected, laughed at, spit on, attacked or even hugged. Its a choice each person makes. It is not easy to get out the front door or backdoor, or hotel door but it can be a fun one. Just my two cents.
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