I am in the closet. Please be kind, respect my decision, and spare me the insults.

[kendra_gurl]

There are many threads for the label discussion. Let's stay on topic.

Was never my intention to go off topic but I do think the bashing Anne received and talked about in her OP and the subsequent post from Veronica is exactly what the majority of negativity instead of support some here reply with is not helpful And it starts from the differences in where each individual is on the journey from being a male who sceretly wears one item of female clothing to those who are on HRT and scheduled SRS surgery.

WE ARE ALL NOT THE SAME SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE EVERYONE ELSE WALK A MILE IN YOUR SHOES

( not shouting just wanted to make a pont)

[Nikki A.]

There are many good points made here and I believe that if you are comfortable in the closet and have no desire to venture beyond, that is your right and priveledge. I felt that way too for many years also. When and if you want to venture out more I as many others here wii be here to support you, but only when YOU are ready.
As far as the others that put you down, that is their problem and don't let them bother or upset you. In every group there are extremists and on the other hand those that are on the other end of the spectrum.
Enjoy your journey

[Eryn]

With the exception of the GGs everyone on this forum is transgendered.

'Cmon, there has to be at least a couple MAB, non-TG, gentlemen with us supporting their FTMs!

[sterling12]

Always try to remember that this Forum is about People expressing their opinions. Otherwise it would look a lot like some well known Conservative Talk Show where all we have is Clones agreeing with The Self-Proclaimed Guru of Conservative Thought.

If you stick around, you will get lots and lots of people not agreeing with you. (Just as some will disagree with me) But, with A Forum like this you also achieve "Discourse." As you already stated, we learn a lot from listening to The Ideas of others.

That Poetry, (in my opinion) was pretty mild. If you choose to take on a controversial subject like: "Why it's good for me to stay in The Closet," I would be shocked if you didn't get a lot of disagreement.

I have been in charge of CD Groups, worked on many CD and TG Projects in and around my area. One thing I can tell you for absolute fact! "If your looking for consensus among The Transgendered.....please don't hold your breath while your waiting." Getting agreement on Anything within our Community is just about like Herding Cats. It ain't gonna work."

Please don't be offended, most of the time around here it's pretty civil. That, is light-years better than most of the other stuff out there that passes for The Term "Forum."

Peace and Love, Joanie

[carhill2mn]

May I suggest that no matter where you are or what the subject matter is, there will be some who only see things from their point of view. There is nothing to be gained by reacting to such people. All one can do is politely overlook their comments and continue to try to enhance your own life and experiences.

[suchacutie]

Hmmm, isn't it interesting that Anne is told that she is silly for worrying about the bullying of her children, but yet what can you call the negative comments made to her if not bullying!. Fascinating.

And may I point out that not venturing out in public en femme does not mean that one cannot help the cause of transgendered rights in other ways. In fact, I could argue that by defending transgendered rights when presenting as a male can have a tremendous impact on our fellow human beings. Furthremore, telling someone how they should live there lives has serious negative connotations in any free society.

Should we support those who wish to venture into the larger world en femme...of course! They need our support and I think we do a good job of supporting them. Those who further our broader transgenderism in other ways need to be supported and praised as well. As I pointed out in the previous thread, we all live in some sort of closet on some issues...it would be imprudent/unwise/rude/etc not to do so.

This forum is for informational support. I, for one, am always incredibly keen to read all the details of anyone's journey into the larger world. There are always little tidbits there that help my presentation and expectations en femme. Those in the closet often tell about interpersonal relationship issues that are just as useful and interesting.

We all help and together we can all make a difference.

Tina

[TxKimberly]

I wouldn't let that persons reply get to you too much. It's a simple fact of life that with all the thousands of people roaming this forum, ANYTHING you say WILL piss someone somewhere off. You could say that the sky is blue, and sure as hell someone would get offended and angry about it. Years ago I made a post that I had been channel surfing and paused on a spanish speaking channel in complete awe of the gorgeous women wearing the killer dresses and shoes. Would you believe that someone started yelling at me and demanding that I explain my comments?!
You just learn to ignore that sort of thing and continue on about your business.

[Anne2345]

Nothing wrong with staying in the closet, but you understand if we encourage someone to come out, right? It's part of the development of our crossdressing.

Hi Violet! You joined the forum around the same time I did. I have seen you around the forum in many threads. You participate regularly and frequently, and add value to the forum.

From the posts I have seen from you, I have not seen you respond in a negative and insulting manner. I have no problem if you put forth your arguments for crossdressers coming out of the closet. None at all. It is your perspective that you are offering to the forum, in the same way I am offering my perspective.

And as I said in my post - I am all for debate and discussion. It is when members start mud slinging and calling names, and take an extreme position with total disregard for other viable and legitimate opinions and perspectives that the system breaks down, and diminishes the otherwise wonderful forum that this is.

I am merely asking members to remain civil and respectful to each other, and leave such negative, hurtful terms such as "loserville" out of the equation. After all, it is disingenous for such a member to say come out into the open, the water is warm, it is great, but if you do not, I am going to shame you, call you names, and trivialize your existence. Again, if we cannot learn to accept ourselves, and the differences we may have as crossdressers, how can we possibly expect the outside world to accept us? It is a self-defeating argument, which dooms the legitimacy of the argument from the onset.

As to your opinions and perspective, keep posting, girl, and have at it!

[SusanMarie]

Anne2345...
It's your closet..
do what you want...
enjoy the support of this forum...
ignore the rest...

[DanyaKay]

Well first off, I will dress where, when and how I want. No one here can say anything to make me do other wise. If I went down that path they'd be telling me what style dress to wear. Not gonna happen.

Second,I also paid for my education and own my own business. It has been extremely rewarding and I'm looking at total retirement in 5 yrs, but could probably do it now if I desired. My line of work is definitely a man's world, but my office and paperwork is time for some serious winding down and chilling out. Yeah, I would lose tons of $$$ if it were to be known.

Next, outside of my office it's strictly greasy hands from working on Jeeps, smelling hands from cleaning fish, and damn good cigars and R&R and ginger ale.

I'm not an activist. I have no ax to grind, except against those who will not work to support America. I can't worry about other peeps issues, I have enough of my own to care of. Peace out girl and I'm in your corner of the closet.

[WsprsOnTheWind]

Well first off, I will dress where, when and how I want. No one here can say anything to make me do other wise. If I went down that path they'd be telling me what style dress to wear. Not gonna happen.

How does your SO deal with your take on doing what you want when you want, if you have a SO?

[Nicole Erin]

Anne, every so often we get a total 'tard on the forum. Seems you had the fortune of running into one.
Worry not though, people like that don't last around here. I have seen a few of them come and go.

After you been here a while, people kind of back off cause like I been here 3.5 years and on the seldom case I get razzed by someone other than a mod (you kind of have to ignore their bait, and sometimes they WILL try to bait you to get yourself banned) but if it is just some normal member, tell them where to cram it.

Now about the closet - yeah it can be cramped, but for me, while I am "out" and all that, i realize that not everyone is in a situation where they can just "come out". I mean like right now I am not working but if I had some job where I could NOT be out then I would not sacrafice my income just to be "out". I know being "out" is fine for 20 year olds who are living at home, don't have family or jobs to worry about, etc, but yeah it bites cause people like judge.

So for those of us who are "out" and have paid some prices for that, yes we do have to put up with a lot more crap and yes it might help our cause but it also benefits the respective TG as they can be themselves.

[Asche]

Nothing wrong with staying in the closet, but you understand if we encourage someone to come out, right? It's part of the development of our crossdressing.

It may be part of the development of your crossdressing.

But who is to say that that everyone will or should develop in the same way or in the same direction? Who is to say that Anne2345's crossdressing (which is only one aspect of her, and perhaps not the most important one) needs to "develop" at all? Maybe her development as a person is in other areas. If diversity is a Good Thing in the biosphere, why is it not a Good Thing within our species -- or our subculture? Perhaps Anne2345 is by staying in her closet further along on her development path than she would be if she came out. And perhaps doing more for herself, her community, and the universe by doing so.

The only "development" that we can all be certain of is the "development" from infant to corpse, and I'm quite happy to take as many detours and delays from that "development" as possible.

[Frédérique]

But to those members within the forum that disagree with other members’ viewpoints, I simply ask that you be respectful and civil with your discourse. In my opinion, this forum is quite special. I know I am not alone in this sentiment. I do not come here to be offended and insulted. I come here to learn, share, participate, offer support, and to make friends. I sincerely hope that is not too much to ask for.

[SIZE="2"]I read the quoted reply, and it saddened me, to say the least. There are a few black queens of misanthropy in this place of support for all crossdressers, so you need to be conscious of that fact and dismiss the odd negative post for what it is – an anomaly. I don’t understand why anyone would want to deflate someone’s view of oneself in this hideous manner, but I suppose some people come here to do just that, and cause mayhem where it is least appreciated…

I just recently held back from responding to a misanthrope who seems to be on my case, mainly because I speak in sentences with forethought. I’ll think of an excellent retort, and then feel bad about it, chiefly because this is NOT how I want to go about things in a special place like this. It doesn’t help ANYBODY to be negative; in fact I dress to get away from these feelings. At the end of the day, I am ultimately responsible for how I feel, so I supplant any tendency to be negative with positive vibes – it helps to step away, take a deep breath, and realize that there are plenty of people here who feel the same way that you do. I guess what I’m trying to say is, “see the whole picture, and not just the details.” With this in mind, it helps to step back from time to time and let the dark clouds disperse…

It’s not easy to be a MtF crossdresser, and “the closet” is our safe haven. If we hold our personal truths to be self-evident, then we are charged with their ultimate protection – not everyone feels that crossdressing is a special expression, and you need to defend yourself from these clamorous barbs of negativity. Unfortunately, this IS a discussion form, and I have been reminded time and time again that ALL opinions are welcome, even those that seek to injure. I’ll tell you, Anne, whenever I’m perforated by some odiferous member’s sarcastic comments, I just think about certain iconic people on this forum I admire that never get ruffled. I think THEY will tell you that you need to stay the course to your own destiny, and patiently endure the slings and arrows of those who openly dislike anyone who has the courage to enjoy crossdressing. It comes with the territory, even though this human landscape is largely unexplored and uncharted – we are the intrepid pathfinders in an invariably dark world, seeking illumination through our feelings…

Here’s a heartfelt hug for you, my dear sister: [/SIZE]

[BRANDYJ]

Hi Ann, Let me be counted as one that agrees with your very well written post. First, we have to remember that some here are in fact either TS or at least lean very close to what a transsexual is. I'm like you, a crossdresser. I have no desire to ever live as a woman full time or even present in public like some here do. So like you, I don't have much in common with many TS's or the more "OUT" CD. I am perhaps more like Kendra in some respects. Probably not much different then you in some ways. You will not see me out there trying to change the world's perception of us by looking like a man in a dress. Fore starters I would not pass or as some say, "blend in"... as some lucky few here can. Then we have yet another camp; Those that don't even try to look like a female, but wear women's clothes in public wherever they go. Not this man! Call me chicken, call me closeted, call me whatever you like, but I have to be comfortable being me. I can not stand the ridicule, the humiliation, cruel words or worse that I might be confronted with.

So move over, there is room in the closet for more of us. Even though I do venture out to clubs that accept us and welcome us. But to go to Walmart, the mall or a restaurant is not gonna happen.

True, we are a community but we have all kinds of people here. Some are very nice, fun, understanding, warm and all those good things we hope to find in others. But be warned, just like out in public, we have those that hate, are not friendly, not nice, arrogant, self-centered, selfish, foolish, inconsiderate, hedonist's and worse! The response to your original post that you shared with us is one of those. No, I do not even want to know that person since we share so little in being just human. It really is OK to not like everyone here for whatever personal reasons we have. But for the most part we have a very good bunch of people here. That includes those I may not even agree with.
Like someone else said Anne, don't take it personal. Try to laugh it off and consider the source.

[Marissa]

All thoughts and comments are locked away in the closet

[Cheryl T]

We all have our personal limits and needs.
If someone is happy to be in the closet then that is their choice. Not everyone has the need to be in public or to be the spokesperson for a group of people.
The same is true for the styles we wear. No one should be ridiculed for their choices, they are after all, their choices. They do not place responsibility on others to "carry the torch" or anything of the sort.
Be who you are and be happy.

[Debglam]

Anne honey,

Others have said it but basically this community, like every other community, is going to have its share of folks that just can't play nicely with others! Don't let it bother you.

You have a lot of friends here and you do what you need to do for yourself and for your family. No judgment and no questions asked!


Debby

[TGMarla]

I notice the "hater in question" has not come and defended that rather rude and uncalled for post. I'd wager that around 75% or more of all the crossdressers in the world are in the closet about it. It's the safe place, and I don't think one can be blamed one bit for staying there as long as one is comfortable there. We owe nothing to anyone else. There is no bylaw that states that we have to go out and present ourselves to the rest of the world. To those of you who do, more power to you. I'm in awe of some of you. But then there are many of us who simply don't want the neighbors to tell our wives that they saw us leaving in the car the other day all decked out like a woman. Not all of our spouses, nor our friends, are friendly and supportive of our cross-gender activities. We have to deal with that as best we can. If that means we stay in the closet, our own homes, then so be it.

That's the bottom line.

[Sophie86]

Newsflash!

You are no longer in your closet.

Congratulations.

No need to thank me - but it's OK if you do.

You've gotta be kidding.

[Alice Torn]

We seek tolerance. Let it begin here! 99% in the closet here!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, how does your wife feel about you being so open?
.

What wife would that be? I'm not married, never been married. You do realize that not everyone here is married? And yes, if I was we would make decisions together...but....I figured it would be a "Good Idea" to not become involved with someone till I had dealt with my issues.

ANNE, wasn't it nice of VeronicaMoonlit to give you yet another example of those who are intolerant of other cd's wishing to stay in the closet?

Let me say again that I am a veteran of USENET, and has been reading about and debating these issues for years.

You call what I said intolerant? That? Didn't you notice all the qualifier words I used, like "some"? Did you not see that I said that while I think "Closets are for clothes, not people" that ones such as I shouldn't be excessively pushy about it, and I'm not. Go read my posting history...go on, I'll wait. Did I not say that I wouldn't have used the language of the person who used the term "Loserville"?

She quoted you seven times, with a response for each, usually with a counter to your reasons for staying closeted.

I always quote a lot, that way one can be certain of exactly what I am referring to.

For example: "Who says you woud lose your job as a result of coming out?" You do, Anne! Just because others have a job situation tolerant of the transgendered doesn't mean that all do. I trust your judgement of your own situation, and your assessment that you could lose your job if you came out.

Perhaps, but is it true judgement or fear talking. It is easy to let fear rule us. For example, I didn't come out to my family for years because of my fears. When I did, one of the things they said was that they were a bit saddened that I did not trust their love for me. I also let fear rule me when I said I'd never go out in public. No really, I actually once said, to Lacey Leigh no less, that I would NEVER go out in public.

I know I would lose mine. My boss is strongly homophobic, and believes that crossdressers are all gay, so if I know what's good for me, I'll stay in the closet.

Fine, I have no problems with that. However, wouldn't it be a good thing to work towards reducing homophobic attitudes wherever you're at? Sure it'll take time, but every little bit helps towards making the lives of the next generation of GLBTQI folk easier.

It is naive to think that a boss can't get rid of anyone he doesn't want working for him. If not for crossdressing, he'll find another reason. Yes, some crossdressers fear what "might" happen, and it's not worth the risk, so we're staying put - in the closet.

Then perhaps one might work on things so that it's not so easy for bosses to do those sort of things. Change the attitudes and the problem becomes fixed. Yes, it takes time, I know. But every little bit helps, right?

As for the "if you're not part of of the solution, you're part of the problem" comment. What's the problem, general public's acceptance of crossdressers? What's the solution? Sacrificing yourself, your security, your job and income, etc., so that other crossdressers get that acceptance some day (year, decade..) If others want to come out, do it. But back off those of us who wish to stay in the closet and not be a martyr for that cause.

You don't have to come out of the closet to support protections for GLTBQI people. I've said that before. You can do little things, even such things as saying "Hey, don't use that sort of language around me, it's offensive"

Veronica's comments are typical of the "trans"community here on this site. I have absolutely nothing against the "trans" community but I do not have very much in common with them. I don't think most "crossdressers" relate well either with those "trans" members either.

Fair enough.

Their mission is not to enjoy playing dress up in private or public but to try and get the general public to accept that it is their right to dress however they want. I do not disagree with that but its not why I dress nor is it very important to me.

That's not exactly the "mission", to me it would be more like accepting transgender identities of varying kinds as valid ones. Including ones of crossdressers who don't identify as transgendered.

While my wife and I are comfortable in going out in public we still only do so in places where friends and family will never see us and that is how we want to keep it. As you said that is our right and no one has the right to try to change that.

But you'll acknowledge that some of us might want to encourage "open-ness" of varying kinds. Note I said encourage, I'm not one for heavy pressure.

I wish the powers that be here would see the need for a split in the Male to Female Crossdressers form and create a separate form for Transgendered members just like the one for Transsexuals.

I strongly believe the girls who consider themselves transgendered are a small minority of the Male to Female Crossdressers group.

That might be the case, but the transgendered crossdressers are more vocal, post more, are more likely to go out in public and more likely to join support groups.

And I was shocked to read the response she got calling her a resident of "Loserville". So uncalled for!

I agree.

Too often I have seen girls on this site get browbeaten into going out into the great big world, long before they're really ready to,

I try not to browbeat, only encourage and but rarely.

This is not some great crusade for everyone in this community. If you want to be some transgendered warrior, then have at it. But not everyone is a militant crossdresser, and the great crusade is not for everyone.

True, but the "crusade" as you put it, does benefit everyone (I personally wouldn't use the words "crusade" or "militant"). And anything we can do to help...even small things we as a group could do without evening have to come out...is a good thing.

That Poetry, (in my opinion) was pretty mild. If you choose to take on a controversial subject like: "Why it's good for me to stay in The Closet," I would be shocked if you didn't get a lot of disagreement.

Exactly.

I have been in charge of CD Groups, worked on many CD and TG Projects in and around my area. One thing I can tell you for absolute fact! "If your looking for consensus among The Transgendered.....please don't hold your breath while your waiting." Getting agreement on Anything within our Community is just about like Herding Cats. It ain't gonna work."

It is like herding cats.

Hmmm, isn't it interesting that Anne is told that she is silly for worrying about the bullying of her children, but yet what can you call the negative comments made to her if not bullying!. Fascinating.

Harsh criticism edging into the nasty side with the "loserville" reference, yes. Bullying...well, I don't think so.

And may I point out that not venturing out in public en femme does not mean that one cannot help the cause of transgendered rights in other ways. In fact, I could argue that by defending transgendered rights when presenting as a male can have a tremendous impact on our fellow human beings.

Oh, I agree. The problem is that a lot of closeted folks DON'T do that, because if they did, things would be even better.

Should we support those who wish to venture into the larger world en femme...of course! They need our support and I think we do a good job of supporting them. Those who further our broader transgenderism in other ways need to be supported and praised as well. As I pointed out in the previous thread, we all live in some sort of closet on some issues...it would be imprudent/unwise/rude/etc not to do so.

Thank you.

We all help and together we can all make a difference.

Tina

That's what I'm referring to.

First, we have to remember that some here are in fact either TS or at least lean very close to what a transsexual is.

That is also a fair point.

Fore starters I would not pass or as some say, "blend in"... as some lucky few here can. Then we have yet another camp; Those that don't even try to look like a female, but wear women's clothes in public wherever they go. Not this man! Call me chicken, call me closeted, call me whatever you like, but I have to be comfortable being me. I can not stand the ridicule, the humiliation, cruel words or worse that I might be confronted with.

Let me say this. I don't pass. But I have never received humiliation and ridicule when out in public. Now I bet people have whispered to each other behind my back...but that's okay, but openly saying cruel things....most people simply aren't willing to do that.

But to go to Walmart, the mall or a restaurant is not gonna happen.

That's what I said and thought...many years ago....I was wrong. Never say never. :-)

Veronica

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Anne, thank you for a very well written and deeply thought-out plea for more tolerance. If I had have read the reply that you quote from your other thread, I would have used the exclamation mark icon atthe bottom left of the post to report it as being deliberately insulting.

Each member of these forums needs to be free to find their own comfort level, but there is nothing wrong with encouraging people if it is done in a manner that is respectful of those who do not wish to be encouraged. To give an example from my work life, there are another girl in my office who has never worn earrings. I talked to her about the feel of the earrings, how pretty I think she would look with such and such a style of earring, but she told me she has a morbid fear of getting an infection if she has her ears pierced. Although I can talk to her about the standards of hygene etc, she would need to go way beyond her comfort level to ever get the piercing. I respect her right to feel that way, and she respects the fact that I have tried to encourage her not bully her.

I agree with the poster who said that encouragement is part of the process of our development, she did not say as some seem to have misinterpreted that "coming out" is part of our development. Someone who has never experienced the luxury of a pedicure can be encouraged by another about how wonderful it feels, If that person then goes on to experience it for themselves, then the encouragement has led to development.

I may think that some of the fears expressed are unfounded, but only the person expressing those fears knows exactly what their own life is like. All we can do to encourage that person is to relate our own experience - but that is just what it is our own and may not relate to the other person's circumstances.

I cannot agree with the posters who say that they are free do what they like and to He** with anyone else. I have a freedom to make a fist and to swing it if I so wish, but that freedom stops where another person's body begins.

To the best of my knowledge these forums exist as a safe place for cross-dressers, their friends and loved ones to interact and to give and receive support. Sometimes that support is best given by challenging what the other person is saying, but to come back to the point of your original post it should be done politely and with respect.

[Samanthascloset]

Anyone notice that the person Anne is refering to doesnt even post a pic. At least most of us in the closet can do that.

[Jeannie]

Anne sometimes misery loves company. I am in the closet to everyone but my sweet and wonderful wife. Everyone else that doesn't understand can kiss it.