validation and being seen

[Asche]

Most of the answers I've seen have been way too philosophical.

IM-not-so-HO, the most important reason is that we are social animals. On a psychic level, we can barely even exist except in relation to other people. (Consider the effects of solitary confinement, shunning, or long-term physical isolation.) We have an inborn need to be seen for who we are, and the parts of us that we cannot allow to be seen tend to atropy or fester. That's the principle behind mind control: if you force a person to convincingly act as if s/he believes X for long enough, s/he will end up actually believing it -- the actor become the role.

That's why we need for someone, at least -- a friend, an SO, a therapist, the denizens of CD.com -- to recognize this part of ourselves, or else we'll go crazy. It's not even necessary for them to approve, just to know that they see it, even if they say we'll go to Hell for it. And for some of us, one person is enough. For others -- well, that's what Jerry Springer's show is for

(YMMV, of course. I'm sure that there are _some_ people out there who crossdress, or do other things, which they are perfectly happy to keep forever secret from the entire human race. They make great spies.)

[pattyv]

Sam-you took the words out of my mouth.

[Karren H]

If you were alone in the woods... Wearing women's clothes.... Making no sound, with your eyes closed... never looked in the mirror then no..... it's not philosophically crossdressing.... it would just be very very strange!!

[suchacutie]

Just to weigh in: Light has a "color" all by itself, and that's called it's frequency. It knows what it's frequency is without us telling it

Likewise, I know I'm Tina without anyone telling me about it!

However, Tina's ego...well that's another thing altogether

tina

[Diane Smith]

Between the defecating bears and the falling trees, I think I'd just as soon stay out of the woods. It's too darned hard to walk wearing stockings and heels in there.

- Diane

[Beverley Sims]

I would get very cross if no one could see me dressed, and the only thing I have had to validate lately is a train ticket.
All the philosophists I know are theorists anyway.
My theory is that if you are naked or dressed in the gender you think you are you are not cross dressed.
This reply makes about as much sense as the original post.

[Marie-Elise]

Favorite quote about philosophy:

Alvy Singer: What's the difference? It's all mental masturbation.
Annie Hall: Oh, well, now we're finally getting to a subject you know something about.
Alvy Singer: Hey, don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love.

[RenneB]

Nope, these clothes that I put on and all the other stuff, make me feel at ease. Litterally, when fully outfitted, I'll sit back in my office chair and just close my eyes and relax with a heavy sigh... Then I'll get up and head off to do my daily chores...shopping, post office, grocery shopping, did I say shopping??

Renne.....

[taís]

what? no mention to Schrödinger's cat yet??

[SIZE="1"](hint: the cat is both alive, dead and crossdressed.)[/SIZE]

[VanIsle]

If a man says something and there's no woman to hear him, is he still wrong?

[Aloha Jayne]

what? no mention to Schrödinger's cat yet??

[SIZE="1"](hint: the cat is both alive, dead and crossdressed.)[/SIZE]

Schrodinger's cat. There, I mentioned it.

I've given a lot of thought to this validation argument, all philosophy aside. Why do we dress, and what do we get out of it? Of all the times I have dressed, I have only dressed in front of someone once, but I still love doing it. But I think it is wonderful that I can become comfortable enough while I'm dressed that I don't even think about it. Tells me that I have become accustomed to this other skin.

But going out into the world and have people see you as the other gender, has to be a great feeling. It tells us that we are as pretty as we want to be, and others see us that way. Ok, we can tell ourselves that's what it means. Everyone wants to have their feelings validated. It's very human nature. But what I want, is to just be able to be myself in and out of public. To be able to wear a dress without a wig or make up, and have no one notice or care would be my validation. I will never be able to fool anyone into thinking I'm a woman, and that is ok. I just don't want the crap kicked out of me because I have my nails done, and wear dangly earrings.

[SamGreen]

Maybe we've missed JagLover's point. Jag, you said that you actually forget what you are actually wearing over the course of the day. Does that mean that you are ultimately comfortable in doing what you do? Isn't that the ultimate validation?

S.

[Brenda79135]

Most of this type thinking is by people that don't understand the concept of physics. If you believe there is no color until you open your eyes, why do you sunburn while laying out in your swimsuit. UV is not visible, therefore it does not exsist. The same can be said for your cell phone. It can't work because (as a human) you can't preceive the radio waves that drive it. As for the tree falling in the woods, who cares except the person the tree fell on. This concept goes along with the CDing. Just because someone is not there to see or preceive you doing it does not mean that you aren't.

[jaglover]

Maybe we've missed JagLover's point. Jag, you said that you actually forget what you are actually wearing over the course of the day. Does that mean that you are ultimately comfortable in doing what you do? Isn't that the ultimate validation?

S.

Quite right of course and yes, I do feel that's true. But my OP had to do with my exploration of why it would make such a difference in my life if I was 'out' to my family (i.e. my teenage kids). Of course there would be the 'convenience' of not having to hide it any more, and the joy of being able to be dressed a lot more often, but also it would be a very important emotional thing and I would feel different in myself I'm sure.

By the way Sam, thanks loads for calling me 'Jag'! I registered here with a nonsense handle out of a paranoid need for anonymity but maybe I'll be 'Jag' now for a while. I'm sure there are worse names - and I'm certainly a Lover not a fighter...

Jag

[jaglover]

Most of this type thinking is by people that don't understand the concept of physics.

Ah, but my daughter's teacher would say that if you try to answer these questions using physics you're not understanding the concept of philosophy...

Jag

ps: I didn't go to university and my A levels were a long time ago but they were Maths, Mechanics, Chemistry - and Physics.

[alice clair]

if a man is alone in the forest and says something is he still wrong? Yes according to most women he would still be wrong!

[jillleanne]

Philosophically speaking, I do hope you are ready for some really off the wall stuff from her. You know, things that make you say, " Huh? What planet are you from?"

[jaglover]

Philosophically speaking, I do hope you are ready for some really off the wall stuff from her. You know, things that make you say, " Huh? What planet are you from?"

She's very level-headed and also inherited a sarcastic attitude from me (and probably also from Chandler in Friends). Last night I asked her how was her day and she shrugged and said "Great. Apparently nothing even exists now."

[KayleeDahl]

On a psychic level, we can barely even exist except in relation to other people. (Consider the effects of solitary confinement, shunning, or long-term physical isolation.) We have an inborn need to be seen for who we are, and the parts of us that we cannot allow to be seen tend to atropy or fester.

I've to have often thought about this topic, more from a psychological direction though. Dr. Lin Fraiser goes into this in depth in one of her papers:

How does the self develop when it is unseen? How does it develop when, in fact, other
people see who the self is not and actually validate, reinforce and mirror what is
experienced as a false-self? And how does the invisible self learn to relate, connect and trust others?

- http://linfraser.com/wp-content/uplo...therapySRT.pdf

In this she is referring to the development of the female self without it being accurately mirrored back to the person (due to being a male in a binary gender system) and the effects that this has on the development of self. Essentially, that the real self cannot develop without mirroring - without peers - which is one of the terrific things that this forum provides - mirroring of a self that can't or won't be shared with the world at large.

Hugs!
Kaylee

[SamGreen]

By the way Sam, thanks loads for calling me 'Jag'! I registered here with a nonsense handle out of a paranoid need for anonymity but maybe I'll be 'Jag' now for a while. I'm sure there are worse names - and I'm certainly a Lover not a fighter...

Jag

You could just be JL?

[Rachel Newark]

Professor of High Energy Physics goes to the Bursar and asks for 10 million ( currency unit of your choice) to buy a larger, more powerful particle accelerator
"10 million", gasps the Bursar, " why can't you physicists be like the mathematicians? All they need is a big pad of paper, some sharp pencils and a waste-paper bin"
" or the Philosophy department, they don't have a waste-paper bin!"

Can't you tell I've never taken a class in Philosophy :-)

Rachel Newark

[Beverley Sims]

If this thread can be thought of as a train.(AMTRAK) I think it has been derailed.

[HannahF6]

Is this like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

That quote always reminds me of a joke I heard once....

If a man is speaking in the forest and there is no woman around to hear him. Is he still wrong?

Hannah

[jillleanne]

Is this really a thread if no one reads it?

"Huh? What planet are you from?"

[SamGreen]

If this thread can be thought of as a train.(AMTRAK) I think it has been derailed.

STOP THE THREAD! Please! For the love of all that is warm and fuzzy with a high heel or two on top!!!!!! HAHAHA.