when does Crossdresser become Transsexual if ever

[BRANDYJ]

]"Do you believe Crossdressing to be just a stage along the transgender continuum, or is it stand alone, self expression by male with male gender brain and strong feminine side and no denial?????"

I can only speak for myself. At my age it stands to reason that I am not in any stage to become TS. It should have/would have happened a long time ago. For me, to use your words, it is a stand alone self expression of my male gender brain with a strong feminine side. I am not in denial what so ever.

This thread confirms what I have always believed. Crossdressers are Transexuals in denial. I think it's very important for the so's of cd's to read this thread and in particular Julia's words.

Sorry Kitty, I strongly disagree with you. I think a very small percentage of CD'ers are in fact TS at any stage. For starters, I bet the majority of CD'ers are the ones we call fetish dressers. Next is that group that fully enjoys being a male and would never give that up. But like many of us, enjoys his short stays in the feminine world he makes when he has the time and inclination to dress.
Some one else said it. You are born TS. But I don't belive we are born CD. That is from early childhoon socialization and personal expression brought on for a multitude of reasons.
Notice that it's those that know they are TS are the ones that support the theory that CD's are really TS on some denial trip. Next are those that say they wish they were TS or would have transitioned if they knew what they knew at an earlier age.
I honestly think you are judgeing form your bad experience with a man that may or may not be a TS that regardless was not a caring. loving person that used and abused you. I'm sorry that happened to you... sincerely. But don't throw us all into the same pigion hole your ex was in. CD, TS, makes no difference. if I remember your story correctly, he simply was not a good person. Some of us are and some of us are not. And the majority by far would not take the path your ex did.

[Inna]

I like to think I am fairly intelectual individual, although such assumption tend to feel self righteous, so lets say I am an average in everything. I am reading the replies with utmost interest, because I in fact want to understand even if the subject at hand seems illusive at best.

But one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
[SIZE="3"]"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial whats so ever"[/SIZE]

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten. Other statements confess [SIZE="3"]"if I only won a lottery things would had been different"[/SIZE]....Really!!! how different would they be???

I fail to understand this phenomena, and perhaps I am the one who does NOT understand, but in my book that is a definition of denial

PEACE

[Bree-asaurus]

I like to think I am fairly intelectual individual, although such assumption tend to feel self righteous, so lets say I am an average in everything. I am reading the replies with utmost interest, because I in fact want to understand even if the subject at hand seems illusive at best.

But one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
[SIZE="3"]"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial whats so ever"[/SIZE]

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten. Other statements confess [SIZE="3"]"if I only won a lottery things would had been different"[/SIZE]....Really!!! how different would they be???

I fail to understand this phenomena, and perhaps I am the one who does NOT understand, but in my book that is a definition of denial

PEACE

What I find interesting is that some people are saying they are crossdressers and 'shoulda woulda' 10-50 years ago but CAN'T?!?

I've seen all kinds of transexuals transition at all stages of life with all sorts of unfortunate circumstances transition because they HAD TO. I believe it's extremely rare that a transexual transitions because "well... I'd like to, but I don't really have to." And along those lines I think it's also pretty rare that a transexual, knowing who they are, will be like "well, I'd like to, but it's just not convenient now."

Then again, maybe after 50 years of pretending to be a guy you don't know much else anymore... maybe you've kinda... brainwashed yourself or something and it's easier to suffer through the remainder of your life pretending to be someone your not. Then.... again... there are transexuals on this very forum and some that I know in real life that have transitioned at 50, 60 and 70 years old. Why is it that some people feel the need to be themselves no matter what, and other people say they are transexual but transitioning is too inconvenient?

[kittypw GG]

. But I can;t go on and make a generalization that most GGs here are bitter .

Who said anyone here is bitter? The discussion is "when does a crossdresser become a transexual if ever". I think the discussion is going very well. Nothing that has been said shows concrete evidence that cd's aren't just in denial. Why post all the "if I win the lottery" things and "If I could take a pill and wake up a girl " I can't believe that its all just fantasy. Why all the so called "pink fog"? and all the complaints that family gets in the way of dressing. If cd's loved being men as well as crossdressing then any upset in a plan to crossdress would not be any problem right? Or is something else really behind it? Right now I'm banking on denial.

[Camillainfurs]

Plenty of interesting thoughts and comments here. I will be as bold to contribute, even though I'm brand new here. Some things have been said which implies (or maybe it it's just me interpreting things completely wrong) that I am repressed by one reason or another. That I'm repressing my own, true female identity. I can honestly say in my case that it's simply not true. I know this since I'm not a habitual crossdresser. I've only done it a few times and would absolutely love to do it again, and be able to do it on a frequent basis. During the 15 years I've been thinking about crossdressing I've been doing a lot of soul searching and never, ever have I felt the wish to become a woman. When I dress, I dress 100%. I won't settle for a dress and a wig. I mean no offence to those who like that, but it's not for me. In the same way, I don't wear female underwear under my male clothes.
I've talked to crossdressers who would probably fit into some sort of spectrum. Some would like to surgically create breasts, but nothing more for example. In South-America there is a large and well-known travesti sub-culture made up of people who are physiologically a mix between men and women. In this case, you could probably talk of a CD/TS spectrum. After I first dressed, I became even more adamant that what works for me is a very strict and definite line between my male (and main) side and Camilla.
The fact that we're talking about individuals here makes it impossible to come up with any sort of conclusion as no individual is alike and everyone has some little tweek or issue that makes sure they don't fit into a category. Sure, many here might have things in common and relate more strongly to each other based on how they feel, but I think we best avoid a too clear branding. It has been mentioned previous in this post that one or two similar personal stories proves some sort of point. That is a notion I strongly disagree with. I don't think anything can proven when dealing with these difficult issues.

[Miriam-J]

Around and around it goes ... This topic has become so circular that what was once a fairly interesting discussion has become incredibly predictable. A few have made some good thoughtful points, only to be shouted down repeatedly by those who insist they know the minds and hearts of others better than they could ever know themselves. Those of you who insist you can see inside the minds of others will do better not to see inside my mind as I read your posts.

Please, let's be respectful enough to accept what others say about themselves at face value, and refrain from insisting that we know better.

Miriam

[Niya W]

Who said anyone here is bitter? The discussion is "when does a crossdresser become a transexual if ever". I think the discussion is going very well. Nothing that has been said shows concrete evidence that cd's aren't just in denial. Why post all the "if I win the lottery" things and "If I could take a pill and wake up a girl " I can't believe that its all just fantasy. Why all the so called "pink fog"? and all the complaints that family gets in the way of dressing. If cd's loved being men as well as crossdressing then any upset in a plan to crossdress would not be any problem right? Or is something else really behind it? Right now I'm banking on denial.

You missed my point . I was talking about taking you views and observations and make it into a blanket statement . I know a lot of guys that get upset when their hobbies or what they do for fun gets interrupted. But once again most of the CD's I know don't have that complaint. I know lots that take the winters months off . One thing I've found are the ones that go out tend not to have those complaints . A lot of what I see on this board I do not see in the bahvior ofthe CD's I know and that go out .

[Michelle.M]

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

Not as theoretical as you might think -

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

[Lorileah]

denial
[dinī′əl]
Etymology: L, denegare, to negate
1 refusal or restriction of something requested, claimed, or needed, often causing physical or emotional deficiency.
2 an unconscious defense mechanism in which emotional conflict and anxiety are avoided by refusal to acknowledge those thoughts, feelings, desires, impulses, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

Thus I don't believe Brandy is in denial. She (and I because I am in the same boat...we might call it NON-op TS?) knows what she is she just does not feel the need to act on it at this time. Also she (and those of us who are in that boat) don't have physical or emotional deficiency so we don't fit (1) either.

Are there TS's who are in denial? Yes. Those of us who are not acting on it at this point may have been there at one time (heck most of us oldsters were in denial over just being TG) but others may have never had any doubt but either didn't have the resources (Thus if you win the lottery) or we didn't like teh surgical options available at the time (Basically it was nothing more than a castration and penectomy...and really just because you don't have a penis doesn't make you feel any more feminine...it just makes you a "nullo" as they call them). And here is the basic thing "we" see. Just because a TS is on their way and they feel that they will physically soon match their needs, does not make those of us who are not going through this for whatever reason less cognizant of who we are.

I will speak for me and if Brandy wants to say otherwise, she can, but we are not denying anything. We are in our minds realistic and logical for who we are.

[Babette]

Thank you Miriam. Ironically, your words were my exact thoughts. I don't believe there is anyone on this forum that has enough insight to declare my personal intentions to be a matter of fact, or to include me into any sweeping generalizations about CD's, TG's, or whatever you think I might be or will become. You don't know me and I sure as tomorrow don't have a clue about you.

Babette

[whowhatwhen]

Come to think of it, this thread poses an interesting question.

If you're going to be in a relationship, obviously you would disclose that you're TG but instead of trying to peer into the future just tell them to assume you're going to transition?
I think it's only fair to tell him or her to know that it's going to be a possibility rather than to get involved and have major drama down the line IF you decide you need to transition.

That doesn't guarantee anything, but it's one less variable.

[Rianna Humble]

one statement, repeated often, contradicts statement's authors. Brandy this is not intended directly to you but you did state such statement as well, and so it goes:
[SIZE="3"]"I should have and given the circumstances, would have if it only was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago but I am content with what I have now and I feel no denial what so ever"[/SIZE]

Now, in my understanding would have and should have indicates a NEED, but because of circumstances such need is stifled, sentenced, abandoned but you know as well as I, never forgotten.

To me, "shoulda, coulda, woulda" is looking back with less than 20/20 hindsight.

I can regret that I didn't have the possibility and understanding 40 or 50 years ago that I have now, but anyone who is content with their gender identity does not need to transition. If they are here and not a GG, then they probably fall somewhere under the TransGender umbrella, but they are not transsexual because they can be content with their gender identity.

Transition is not something you do because you want to become something you are not. It is something that you do because you need to survive or opt out of life.

I have yet to meet an MtF transsexual who transitioned because she wanted to become a woman. I have met plenty (including myself) who transition because we are already women and cannot continue to live the lie that we are something else. As far as I can tell the same thing is true for the FtM's in that they transition because they are men but their body does not reflect who they are.

Contentment does not equal denial. It does equal a lack of need to change that with which one is content.

[Sally24]

I think there are as many reasons for gender variant people as there are excuses for not exploring this world. I personally believe you have input into what you "need" here. I don't think many of us are fated to be one thing or the other. Some sides argue that many are denying who and what they really are. Others say that surgery can't make you happy.

My personal feeling is that many people think that their path is the only real or true one. Sort of like religion. And like the analogy to religion, they are wrong. I think for the majority, there are many places on the gender spectrum where they could be happy. It's up to each individual to find the best fit for them. I don't think short of magic that there is a perfect fit, just the best fit.

Many of our needs change over time and I see that in the number of 40 and 50 years olds who finally start going out into the world. Are they transexuals that have been denying their nature? Well, some of them are....but some of them are not. As complex as the issue is I think seeing it as diverse as the light spectrum with all different hues and frequencies is apt. What's your frequency?

[Bree-asaurus]

To me, "shoulda, coulda, woulda" is looking back with less than 20/20 hindsight.

I can regret that I didn't have the possibility and understanding 40 or 50 years ago that I have now, but anyone who is content with their gender identity does not need to transition. If they are here and not a GG, then they probably fall somewhere under the TransGender umbrella, but they are not transsexual because they can be content with their gender identity.

Transition is not something you do because you want to become something you are not. It is something that you do because you need to survive or opt out of life.

I have yet to meet an MtF transsexual who transitioned because she wanted to become a woman. I have met plenty (including myself) who transition because we are already women and cannot continue to live the lie that we are something else. As far as I can tell the same thing is true for the FtM's in that they transition because they are men but their body does not reflect who they are.

Contentment does not equal denial. It does equal a lack of need to change that with which one is content.

Thank you!

We transition because we HAVE TO. Not because we want to.

I don't recall thinking "Oh wouldn't it be cool to be a woman?! Maybe I should dress up and change my body chemistry and chop off my man parts! Oh this will be so fun!"

It was more like "@#$%!!! What do I have to do to continue living!"

Of course this is just me... and most other transexuals out there...

[Sally24]

Of course this is just me... and most other transexuals out there...

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.

If we agree that the transexual brain is different, than I would be very surprised if we scanned everyones brain and didn't find Many, Many, Many more transexuals in the general population. And they wouldn't have to be in denial. Being transexual does NOT have to mean that at some point it's either transition or die. Is it a common story? Of course! Is it the only transexual story? NO!

I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

[Ari333]

I think that issues of crossdressing and transgender are seperate, but for myself it was my crossdressing that made me aware of my gender dysphoria. like many of us, my outer appearance when crossdressed felt "right", for lack of a better or more descriptive term. once I began venturing out in public, it became somewhat addictive, until I eventually realized that I was born to be a girl. I denied it for a long time, it was frightening! eventually I realized the difference (for myself): mentally I am the same, no matter my outer appearance. whether dressed as male or female, I am she.
but I have no desire for SRS. I did consider fulltime femininity at one point when much younger, but decided I was not ready to start a whole new life. I knew then I was not TS. just a snowflake, one of the hundreds of variations between TV and TS.

[CINDYO]

Question- If a guy wants to dress like a female a greater percentage of time, ie greater than 50% if the time, note I said "wants to" some want to but don't admit it. Then i question, why not just go for it and become a female in every sense of the word. This is obviously what the cder wants or he would not be dressing or wanting to all the time. It is more accepted than crossdressing and eventually would be less confusing and tormentive to a wife.. At least if the husband says he is going to transition, he would be happy as heck and there would be no more "what ifs" for the wife. The road would be clear cut and eventually everyone involved would be living a normal life. The couple may not be together but they would eventually live a life with some certainty and perdictablility about tomorrow or next year.

[Lorileah]

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.


I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

Thank you ma'am. That's what I been trying to say. "we who don't have surgery" are just as real as anyone else.

And I think I am done with this thread. Why does it always end US VS THEM?

[Bree-asaurus]

Only if you forget to count the pre-ops and non-ops and the ones who live without hrt or surgery.

If we agree that the transexual brain is different, than I would be very surprised if we scanned everyones brain and didn't find Many, Many, Many more transexuals in the general population. And they wouldn't have to be in denial. Being transexual does NOT have to mean that at some point it's either transition or die. Is it a common story? Of course! Is it the only transexual story? NO!

I would think people on this forum at least would understand that very little in this world is black and white.

I didn't say being transexual means transition or die. I also said that transition or die was MY experience and a very common one at that.

I'm talking about transexuals after they come to the realization that they're transexual. My statement includes all the variations you stated above. Transition doesn't require anything you mentioned... surgery or HRT.

I have no doubts that there are transexuals that live their whole life in denial. But as you can see from the wide array of transexuals out there, sometimes it takes quite a long time before they come to terms with who they are. Just because a transexual is in denial right now, doesn't mean they will be in 10, 20, 50 years.

Thank you ma'am. That's what I been trying to say. "we who don't have surgery" are just as real as anyone else.

And I think I am done with this thread. Why does it always end US VS THEM?

Who is saying you're not? I see arguments here, and some ignorance, but where is the US VS THEM?

Have I put down crossdressers? Have I put transexuals on a pedestal? I've actually seen a wide array of ideas from both sides. How is this a war of crossdressers vs transexuals?

[BRANDYJ]

Thus I don't believe Brandy is in denial. She (and I because I am in the same boat...we might call it NON-op TS?) knows what she is she just does not feel the need to act on it at this time. Also she (and those of us who are in that boat) don't have physical or emotional deficiency so we don't fit (1) either.

Are there TS's who are in denial? Yes. Those of us who are not acting on it at this point may have been there at one time (heck most of us oldsters were in denial over just being TG) but others may have never had any doubt but either didn't have the resources (Thus if you win the lottery) or we didn't like teh surgical options available at the time (Basically it was nothing more than a castration and penectomy...and really just because you don't have a penis doesn't make you feel any more feminine...it just makes you a "nullo" as they call them). And here is the basic thing "we" see. Just because a TS is on their way and they feel that they will physically soon match their needs, does not make those of us who are not going through this for whatever reason less cognizant of who we are.

I will speak for me and if Brandy wants to say otherwise, she can, but we are not denying anything. We are in our minds realistic and logical for who we are.

Thank you Lorileah,

This thread is painting with a very broad brush. I know who and what I am and I happen to like who and what I am. I would not transition even if I win the lotto! Many of our TS members stated that they transitioned because they had to. I get that. Why can't they or others get that most of us that identify as CD's done have to or want to? I am very happy with my duelality and never would change that. Besides, if I did, I'd lose themost important thing in my life, that is my SO. Nothing...I mean NOTHING is worth that to me. Many TS's have lost women they love becaue the need was that strong to transition. I feel for them, I hurt for them, but npo way coulld I pay the price many have. Just call me a very happy CD...period.

[Bree-asaurus]

Thank you Lorileah,

This thread is painting with a very broad brush. I know who and what I am and I happen to like who and what I am. I would not transition even if I win the lotto! Many of our TS members stated that they transitioned because they had to. I get that. Why can't they or others get that most of us that identify as CD's done have to or want to? I am very happy with my duelality and never would change that. Besides, if I did, I'd lose themost important thing in my life, that is my SO. Nothing...I mean NOTHING is worth that to me. Many TS's have lost women they love becaue the need was that strong to transition. I feel for them, I hurt for them, but npo way coulld I pay the price many have. Just call me a very happy CD...period.

I think this thread had a very weird OP and a couple random people that said all crossdressers are on the road to being transexuals (which is absurd). But if you read all the posts, you'll see that the people who are shouting these blanket statements are in the minority. ... at least I hope so!

[Sally24]

I also said that transition or die was MY experience and a very common one at that.

I was Mostly taking issue with the Most in your response.

Transition doesn't require anything you mentioned... surgery or HRT.

I am surprised to hear that definition from you because my impression was that very many TS's here consider surgery and HRT to be synonymous with transition. Maybe I learned something new today.

[sandra-leigh]

It was more like "@#$%!!! What do I have to do to continue living!"

The only significant difference between what you write there and what I went through, is that I was still at the point where I thought that it might be possible to keep living as I was.

Like working on a bad job, "Well, I think I can stand another month of it", or "I really hate going in today, but the rent is due", or "let's see how badly they #$@# me over at xmas time, maybe it will get better.".

How much longer did I have before it I couldn't stand it anymore? I don't know. Another couple of years of struggle seemed like something I could perhaps get through, but I didn't think I could make it until retirement.

And once you have figured out that you must do something to fix your life, if you do not need to delay for Darn Good Reasons, then struggling in misery for a few more years just because you are not yet at your breaking point, does not seem to be a wise strategy. Wiser, IMHO, to take action before it becomes critical.

[Bree-asaurus]

I was Mostly taking issue with the Most in your response.


I am surprised to hear that definition from you because my impression was that very many TS's here consider surgery and HRT to be synonymous with transition. Maybe I learned something new today.

They usually go hand in hand, but they are not required. Basically, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to survive.

As for the "most," well we're kinda judging by what we know... from the people we've heard about and the studies we've seen. We have no idea how many transexuals never transition. It could be 5 people, it could be thousands. But rather than argue all the possible variations, why not stick to the information that's out there and make reasonable arguments based off of it?

And this thread is by no means a scientific study or anything that will even be remembered in a couple weeks.

The only significant difference between what you write there and what I went through, is that I was still at the point where I thought that it might be possible to keep living as I was.

Like working on a bad job, "Well, I think I can stand another month of it", or "I really hate going in today, but the rent is due", or "let's see how badly they #$@# me over at xmas time, maybe it will get better.".

How much longer did I have before it I couldn't stand it anymore? I don't know. Another couple of years of struggle seemed like something I could perhaps get through, but I didn't think I could make it until retirement.

And once you have figured out that you must do something to fix your life, if you do not need to delay for Darn Good Reasons, then struggling in misery for a few more years just because you are not yet at your breaking point, does not seem to be a wise strategy. Wiser, IMHO, to take action before it becomes critical.

I totally agree with you. I was just battling fear until I almost went too far. I wish I could have realized the need before getting sucked down as far as I did.

[whowhatwhen]

Just because a transexual is in denial right now, doesn't mean they will be in 10, 20, 50 years.

That seems to go back to the "difference between CD and TS" joke posted earlier.
:P

I know we covered that you don't need to crossdress to be TS, but can crossdressing act as a gateway to self discovery in some circumstances?

Sorry for the million questions, I'm sponging it up.


Edit:
vvvvvvv
Oh, sorry - I was just referencing it.