Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health?

[ReineD]

Congratulations on ...

Doing the math is not at issue.

But, saying there are enough crossdressers to fill most nations gives the impression there are more than the actual 2%-5% of the population. I just think it is helpful to put things in context.

I'm not sure why you mentioned the numbers, but if your point was to demonstrate that a high enough number of transgenders will cause the medical/psychiatric community to depathologize the condition and remove it from the DSM, it is not numbers that determine inclusion in the DSM. I dare say there are more people who suffer from depression, anxiety, and ADHD than there are TGs. The continued debate, as Lea stated, is due to there having been a lack of scientific consensus about the nature of transsexuality in the relatively short time since it began to be better understood.

Yes, we can be freaked-out by widespread prejudice and discrimination. If someone who is highly qualified loses a job, they understandably can feel sad or even depressed. The changes that must occur are in Western culture, not in transgender persons. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

Yes, societies in all cultures (not just Western) need to understand that there are a small number of people whose genders are not congruent with their bodies, and further this is not pathological nor is it a moral weakness. I don't think anyone here will disagree. And I agree that the movement forward to increase awareness to this issue is painfully slow. But, there are members in this forum who have transitioned in place without losing their jobs, which would have been unheard of a generation ago.

I do not foresee a time though, when crossdressers or the gender non-conforming will be embraced in society even if they are tolerated, excepting employers and many spouses. Although I may be wrong, most employers/teachers/students expect to see an individual as either male or female, and they don't understand individuals who wish to switch back and forth or who present a mixture of both gender cues.

Still, in addition to the advocacy groups that continue to push for recognition of sexual and gender diversity, I'd like to see our schools include a more comprehensive instruction in our curriculums. If kids learn at an early age that it's OK to not be cis/hetero-normative, things can only continue to improve in the future ... if we can also remove a religious objection to gender and sexual diversity, in Western culture and worldwide.

[jsunic_1978]

I think we all think way too much about everything peroid! Just dress as we wish. The more we do what we want to do and as long as we are not harming anyone, peoplre just like happy people. plain n simple.

[LeaP]

I don’t know why you are so hostile. My position is simply that transgender persons took issue with the professional organizations 40 years ago, after the professional organizations capitulated to the gay community and decided that sexual orientation was human variability rather than a bad choice or mental illness. Transgender persons said, in effect, “Then why is transgender feeling just a bad choice or mental illness?� There have always been efforts by both the APA and WPATH to discredit the other. In real time (not just when information was published), I think that APA was slightly ahead of WPATH (2010 is nowhere near when the behind-the-scenes debates took place), but the important point is that both organizations eventually decided that transgender persons might have a better understanding of transgender mental dynamics than the professionals. Yes, we can be freaked-out by widespread prejudice and discrimination. If someone who is highly qualified loses a job, they understandably can feel sad or even depressed. The changes that must occur are in Western culture, not in transgender persons. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

Facts are stubborn things. Here they are (again).

The various gender-related diagnoses are still pathologized. All are in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Some are in the sexual disorders and paraphilias section, others not (we can't be 100% of final categorization until release, though the new edition is supposed to have gone to press by now.

The "new" Gender Dysphoria" diagnosis, which is substantially similar to the GID diagnosis of the current edition, is meant for transsexualism primarily, by way of its diagnostic criteria, and because it is the latest incarnation of the transsexualism diagnosis of earlier editions of the DSM. It has little to do with "transgender" in the broader sense.

Practitioners and researchers are split on questions of etiology and on normalcy. Some of the ongoing dispute is reflected in the upcoming DSM revision. The categorization of the Gender Gysphoria diagnosis (transsexuals) removes some stigma and the "Transvestic Fetishism," now "Transvestic Disorder" diagnosis (crossdressers) is made worse.

In fact, it's interesting that the latter has not been discussed here, particularly as much of the discussion has been around the concept of disorder. One may argue whether "transvestic fetishism" or "transvestic disorder" is worse, but there is no argument whatsoever that it is its a disorder, by dint of its name alone. Moreover, it is in the paraphilias section of the DSM. As much as anything else, this Reflects Ray Blanchard's view of the world. He chaired the paraphilias working group, and clearly does not regard anything related to gender variance as normal.

I'll repeat what I said in my response to some of your comments in another thread. I see no evidence whatsoever that the WPATH SOC has been "disavowed." It is cited repeatedly in the APA's task force report on the treatment of gender identity disorder. WPATH is not technically a mental health professionals organization, though they predominate. There are plenty of psychiatrists who belong to both WPATH and the APA. WPATH exists for one primary reason – because at the time of its creation there were no standards. The APA has never issued any practice guidelines (its rough equivalent of the WPATH SOC), or training education, and experience recommendations for treating gender. There was recognition within the APA (mentioned in the task force report itself) that the organization had made things worse for gender variant people as a result.

I see no evidence that mental health professionals have suddenly decided that gender variant and transsexual people know more or better than they do, whether on "mental dynamics" (which you'll have to define) or on anything else. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. I would refer again to my comments on the renaming of the transvestic fetishism diagnosis and categorization, above. And again, all of the things we've been discussing are diagnoses of mental disorders - officially - published, promulgated, reviewed, voted, and supported by psychiatry's governing body in the US. Regardless of how individual practitioners choose to look at things on their own.

That rather nails the point vis-Ã*-vis how gender variant and transsexual people view normalcy versus what the psychiatric profession officially regards as disordered. Further, the APA intends to not only maintain its diagnoses in the DSM but has recommended (via the task force report) of going on to develop practice guidelines (SOC's) as well as bring some kinds of treatment under the direction of a psychiatrist's care only. This is not the world envisioned by some "transgender" activists.

Your comment on job loss and sadness appears (I'm really not quite sure here) to have something to do with how you view dysphoria. If so, you're grossly mischaracterizing what dysphoria is all about. Kelly Jameson recently posted a response in another thread in the transsexual forum that recaps it nicely:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post3055941

So if you're suggesting in your final question that the resolution to dysphoria lies in changing Western culture, I disagree. Acceptance is important, of course. But that has precisely nothing to do with gender dysphoria. On the basic question posed by your OP, I do think that cross-dressers, gender variant, and transsexual people suffer higher rates of emotional and mental problems. I do not think this is because the conditions or behaviors are necessarily intrinsically disordered, but are due to conflicts set in motion as a result. There is a cultural aspect to that, but it is not a complete picture.

[famousunknown]

So my answer again... ask any therapist, it is normal!!

Therapists don't speak for the majority of society. No, it's NOT normal.

[Marleena]

Therapists don't speak for the majority of society. No, it's NOT normal.

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

What more can I say?? My first reply was ask any therapist and it still is the correct one. I've seen lots of Cders post here saying they went to a therapist and was told there is nothing wrong with them, just other people accepting it.

[famousunknown]

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

What more can I say?? My first reply was ask any therapist and it still is the correct one. I've seen lots of Cders post here saying they went to a therapist and was told there is nothing wrong with them, just other people accepting it.

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

[Marleena]

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

I'm not twisting it but I give up! We are all freaks then.

[famousunknown]

I'm not twisting it but I give up! We are all freaks then.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much what society is thinking.

[Vicki Wa]

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

That depends on the definition of "society". Much older cultures, especially some of the Polynesian cultures, have no issue and actually embrace transgendered people. The Fa'afafine are accepted and loved in the Samoan culture.

Rather than try to defend the Western culture that has been squeezed into a conformist society based on governmental control, maybe we should be pushing for change. The medical community and therapists have come to recognise that there is more to the human being than just being the male or female described in Europena doctrine from the last 1000 years... Historically there are so many valuable people who have not met the "accepted norm" of their day, but they didn't change themselves.

It is the narrow minded who don't want change - because they are afraid. More and more there are states that have laws preventing any form of discrimination against anyone expressing their sexual preference or freedom of fashion choice. We are the ones who have to show it is not abnormal - it is just us - a person with intelligence, feelings, and the ability to advance society to a better place. The more people say it is not normal and do NOT have people disagree with them - the longer some people will keep thinking it.

It is normal. Say it and tell it to everyone who says it isn't. Be the change.

[LeaP]

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

We are mixing concepts. Cross-gendered behaviors are not normal by definition because the overwhelming majority of the population does not engage in them and does not accept them. I.e., it is outside of social norms.

That does not mean it is pathological, however. It is within the range of normal human variation, and I would say biological variation specifically (as I believe it to be), at least for transsexuals and perhaps most gender variant people.

Even if one were to take the view that "simple" crossdressing behavior had no biological basis, had roots in psychological, emotional, or developmental issues, however, and therefore pathological besides abnormal in the strictly social sense, one wonders at the social utility of the condemnation. The worst one can say is that it's idiosyncratic. It's harmless.

[Marleena]

Thanks, I'm done with this thread.

[famousunknown]

Thanks, I'm done with this thread.

You just want somone to tell you that you're normal. I'm sure that won't be that hard to find here.

[TeresaL]

In regards to transgender (umbrella defin) issues, gender counselors are indeed telling us that there is nothing wrong with us that is treatable. They will help us however, through our marital issues if we want. If our spouse is distressed upon finding out about our TG proclivity, then counseling could help to save our marriage. If for nothing else, having an impartial person as an ally can sometimes help, if both spouses are open to accepting each other.

While we may be normal, as a person who has diabetes, both issues can and have been claimed to be a disorder. I think we can agree that we are normal, but society just doesn't get it. OTOH. Who is or what is normal. LOL

In my own situation, I desired saving my marriage, and did submit to marital therapy for my spouse's sake because she was distressed due to my being TG. She is no longer distressed, we are fairly comfortable with my expressing as Teresa, and my therapist is ready to release me. Again, she, my therapist, has told me that there is nothing wrong with me being TG, and I do not need treatment.

As a matter of fact, cures are not taught in traditional psychology. See APA, American Psychology Association website.
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.pdf

If you wish to do the research, the clinic I attend is the Veteran's hospital which is nationwide and available to all military veterans. They use WPATH standards and recommendations if transition is requested.
http://www.va.gov/vhapublications/Vi...sp?pub_ID=2416

It has been a very rewarding experience.

-------
Added: In 1990, therapists promised and implemented cures which were empty promises. That curative therapy never did work, and did more harm than good. I verify the in effectiveness as several of those practitioners worked me over to no avail. They had me so stressed out I told them I am quitting forever just to get them off my back. It will never happen again.

[Joann Smith]

" Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health? "

Yeah! .....this is what happens when you lock folks in a closet for a bunch of years ..

[Acastina]

"I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested" [Sheldon in The Big Bang Theory]

Mental health is defined primarily by mental health professionals, which is a bit like leaving the fox in charge of the henhouse.

Those professionals are humans like everyone else, just as prone to personal, family-induced, and culturally encouraged prejudices as others. We hope that their training conditions them to perform their functions in the health system with disregard for such prejudices, but they're only human. I had a therapist once, a TG specialist, who ended up marrying a TG client of hers in hopes of, for lack of a better term, "curing" him so he could be her man. Last I heard, it did not turn out well. She should have known better (two counts: relationship with client and believing the client had finally found "the right woman" who would make it all go away), and they both paid a price. There are also those with professional biases, an urge to prove a pet theory, novel view of the phenomena, or religious beliefs, and those can skew their objectivity as well.

Luckily, we have been able to slip out from under the thumb of those who would define transgenderism itself as a disorder. As far as other mental maladies I believe that the stresses brought on by society's treatment of us might make us more susceptible to things like depression, but TG people who have healthy outlets to express themselves are likely to be less subject to these maladies.

I did a presentation to a university class (Psychology, I think) about 15 years ago, showing slides of me en femme while describing it as objectively as I could. When I finished, a female student immediately suggested that such persons were probably prone to more anxiety and depression than non-TGs, due to societal tolerance issues. Do ya think? She sensed it immediately as a natural result of being compelled to disfavored behaviors. The tricky part is sorting out what is reactive and what might be more endogenous: are some of us depressed because we're TG, or TG and depressed without a causal relationship to each other?

[Jamie Ann]

I largely agree with Dreine in her/his latest post. (That may be a first!) Regarding LeaP’s latest post, I think that there is some hostility that cannot be accounted for by anything I wrote. The American Psychiatric Association and WPATH have long considered crossdressers as persons with mental disorders. Crossdressers and other transgender persons have long considered that stance as total ignorance. There has been on ongoing disagreement. The American Psychiatric Association recently agreed to revise their APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5) to state unequivocally that being transgender is not a mental illness. WPATH put out a statement, which may be more PR than anything substantial, that they think that the transgender feelings are an “illness� should be deemphasized in their public statements. That is a small step in the right direction; but it may have more to do with frictions between them and the American Psychiatric Association than with any real change in how they perceive transgender persons. I welcome constructive comments from LeaP, but she/he needs to understand that those of us who are really concerned about transgender issues do not want to argue trivia; we want to raise issues of some importance and we question whether statements such as hers contribute to our goals. Hostility does not necessarily advance our objectives. LeaP needs to get her act together.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I look at it like this. The transgendered mind and the nontransgendered mind, think of them as shelves and stress as the weighty thing that will be placed ont them throughout their lifespan. With no stress both shelves are empty except the transgendered shelf will always have the added weight of the stress of not feeling right in their own body. That shelf maybe able to carry the weight but it is defiately at a disadvantage to the nontransgendered shelve as the weight of life's stresses are added and subtracted from them.

[andrea lace]

i have just come out and what kept me from expressing myself was society telling me it is not the norm.I have repressed the feelings i have had for a long time and this has only hurt me and the ones closest to me.I now feel i am normal and just different from most but not all

[LeaP]

Hostility does not necessarily advance our objectives. LeaP needs to get her act together.

Your hubris is astonishing. I put facts on the table, you responded with ad-hominems, then accuse ME of hostility!

I can think of a variety of life areas in which I need to get my act together! In this instance, however, the facts amply support what I've stated. If you prefer happy fictions about the APA (including the monumental one that a diagnosis in a manual of mental illness constitutes a statement that the condition is not a mental illness) and in conspiracies regarding WPATH, then have at it. My counters are already here for any to read.

One last before I decamp the thread: Many do not subscribe to the "transgender" notion (beyond its use as a convenient linguistic categorization) or approach to activism. As you present yourself as being versed in things transgender, you doubtless know that the term itself has origins in politics and that a significant faction of transsexuals regards it both as a means of co-opting legitimacy (i.e., for the non-TS) as well as holding back progress on transsexual issues. Your objectives are not necessarily "our" objectives.

[CONSUELO]

First let us remind ourselves that homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until quite recently. Also there is a difference between being transexual or transgendered and suffering from some other mental disorder. The two do not necessarily go together. Finally, psychology is a very imprecise "science". In fact I would argue that it does not even qualify as one because it has developed no predictable theories ( and I mean theories in the scientific sense in that it can predict and explain a large body of knowledge and is capable of being verified by experiment; not hypotheses ). Psychology is a useful study but it cannot link its ideas and hypotheses back to biology and so explain why people behave in a certain way. So, I would not draw many, if any, conclusions from all of this.

[Acastina]

Unfortunately, that's pretty much what society is thinking.

With respect, I might suggest that the location line says volumes here. The "society" of the American South is far from "normal" in my view. The most undereducated, backward, and bigoted demographics in a diverse country that is otherwise pretty much trying to be a modern nation of 310 million people. I'm not saying or implying that Famous fits that description, but a disproportionate number of those around her do, and that's a matter of fact, not opinion, from racism to virulent and extreme religious fundamentalism, with the intolerance that is a prominent feature of both racism and fundamentalism acted out in daily life.

I'm saying her conclusions are probably easy and credible to reach where she lives, but not everywhere. In fact, more so in my part of relatively liberal California than in other parts. I know; I've lived in both kinds of places in this state.