Don't Be One

[Jamie001]

This is such a good read

My only thoughts is that if we wish to change the world views on CD'rs, we all need to come out of the closet and embrace the streets!

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

[ReluctantDebutant]

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

Its not always a lack of courage most of the time its a preference. I am a closeted CDer and I have been out a few times and the world was more excepting then advertised but it was also boring as hell. When one is home alone they can focus all their attention on the clothes and the fantasy. For many CDers crossdressing is just something to do for fun and not an expression of themselves.Also Many CDers don't hate male clothes. Why bother going out enfemme and risk being viewed as being less then a man when that is not how you really feel and wearing male clothes is not a pain or a problem?

[tiffanyjo89]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

[Jamie001]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

It really depends on what is important to the person. Some folks get to the point where they can no longer live a lie or play a role because it is just too stressful. In this case, they have no choice but to come out.

[Ezekiel]

It really depends on what is important to the person. Some folks get to the point where they can no longer live a lie or play a role because it is just too stressful. In this case, they have no choice but to come out.

Agreed, sometimes its killing you and theres no other way but to go out. But for others, depending specially in what situation you might find yourself in, in lets say, a part of your life, you might want to delay the outting.

[Lorileah]

Let's get back to topic ok? If you want to discuss why CDs stay in the closet, start a new thread

[jenni_xx]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

A fear that I think is unfounded. Speaking as a gay man, when I came out the fear was that I would lose those who are closest to me. It didn't happen. As far as business relations are concerned, well it's none of their business and as long as I remain professional there is no reason whatsoever to lose such contacts. I do feel that a lot of the fear of loss is something that we feel ourselves unnecessarily - once you come out, people just tend to accept it or not regard it as big a deal as we ourselves perceived it to be.l In short, it's only a problem of our own making. People, others, are a lot more accepting today then they used to be.

I say that, not as an authority, but only from my own experience. A lot of the fear resides only in our own heads.

[Jamie001]

A fear that I think is unfounded. I do feel that a lot of the fear of loss is something that we feel ourselves unnecessarily - once you come out, people just tend to accept it or not regard it as big a deal as we ourselves perceived it to be.l In short, it's only a problem of our own making. People, others, are a lot more accepting today then they used to be.

I say that, not as an authority, but only from my own experience. A lot of the fear resides only in our own heads.

This is very true. 90 percent of the fear is in our own minds. It is very difficult to convince crossdressers of this simple fact because they have created such a big demon in their mind.

[nhlighthouse]

you said it in a nut shell! Love ya!

[Julogden]

You're right. It's way easier to complain that one group or another won't let us dress the way we want to than it is to get out there and put it all on the line for the world to see.

I know that many here are not fond of drag queens, complaining that they give the public the wrong idea about crossdressers, but you have to admit that life for DQ's has improved significantly in recent years primarily because they've got the guts to get out there and let the world see them, so now they're getting TV series and product endorsements. There have also been a few high-profile TS's who have done the same, although mainly ones who have been outed rather than who came out voluntarily, which has improved the way that TS's are perceived by most people.

So ideally, we need to let the world know that we're here if at all possible and also speak up and act when we hear negative stuff about trans people of any kind or encounter discrimination based on gender or gender identity. CD's need to quit bitching about what females can wear, it does nothing to help gain acceptance and turns off some possible allies, IMO.

Carol

[ArleneRaquel]

Carol,
You are so right darlin. HUGZ !

[Shananigans]

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

You know, I think there is A LOT of truth to what you are saying right here. I've thought about it myself before, but I never really taken the time to Really consider it... I have probably mentioned before that my SO is pretty casual in male-mode. But, en femme, things can get a little X-rated, and I could be all "Hide your kids, hide your wife" (+1 if that statement brought you back like 2 years)...but, luckily, he actually goes with my opinion on things like that. (I, on the other hand, am usually being one, because I frequently like to ask for his opinion on my outfit...only to go with my original intention, which I was going to do no matter what he said...don't you hate it when people do that lol?) En femme, he could take like 4 hours getting ready...and, being that I am kind of a brat, I will get to a point where I'm giving him a face when he is still meticulously adjusting each and every hair on his wig...or, taking 90 years to clasp his high heels...or, (God, help me because this drives me insane) randomly decide (after I've been waiting patiently for like 4 hours) to give himself a manicure.

My SO has NEVER been one to rush me to get ready...even if I probably should be rushed. I always respected that, because I "knew how guys were" about rushing girls along to get ready....beauty takes time, duh. But, turns out my SO has the patience and respect of a Saint...and, I'm kind of demanding and like everything on my own turns. But, luckily, I can psychologically validate myself and say that this is all okay...obviously...like, I know that I do it/am that way...so, like that's the most important part of therapy right there, right?...Acceptance?

However, it's a whole different story when he is in male mode. I had always accepted that he was a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy. I despised him a little bit for having hair that magically styled itself without ever needing to be brushed. But, with that whole "being an adult thing"/getting ready for work, I had to do one of the most annoying things and become That girlfriend who suggested what he would wear for the day/rest of his foreseen career. So, naturally, we had to go shopping...or, he'd be wearing a Metallica shirt to work.

Shopping in the men's department was LOADS of fun. I really thought I would hate it. But, dragging my SO around the men's department was like pulling teeth. I had absolutely NO idea what the heck I was doing...I figured my SO would know...you know, being a dude and all. But, he had no clue. So, I do what I always do when I'm not sure how I am supposed to dress...I let other people tell me what to do (AKA look at the mannequins). And, once I got the hang of it...it was pretty cool. There is actually (as I am thinking about it), a lot of variety....but, not really my SO's variety. He will never in a million years do androgynous...it would never work for him to put together a male wardrobe with some feminine flare. Unless it requires fishnets, school girl skirts, and corsets...he's like, "Soooooo...yeah...this kind of defeated the whole purpose of me CDing." So, no matter what...he would have a look that was more of what I would call "female provocative"...which, I'm partial to on Cami, I'll admit. However, he would really benefit from being able to add male-designed stuff that was feminine...he could still do the look that he likes, but he might be more successful in finding things in his size/what complements his frame. And, honestly, who know how his opinion might change if the male stores started carrying skirts...and, it became a "thing." It might give him more options to really "own" his style (as someone else brought up on this thread).

But, really, I think a big reason why he doesn't care so much in male mode is because he doesn't know the first thing about male fashion. And, neither do his friends. He has a loose concept of female fashion, but it's not really fashion in the sense that I am thinking of fashion...he got the concept from Somewhere...but, let's just say that it wasn't Marc Jacobs lol.

Hopefully, as we are spending more time developing his "career attire," we can work more on just being fashionable even on a casual basis. I really do think it makes you feel good when you get polished up, but he only takes that opportunity for CDing...and, really, it should be just something you get up and do in the morning. So, maybe I can introduce him to some of the styles you posted and see what he says...I know the first words out of his mouth will be something along the lines of, "Well, if I am going to spend money on clothes, I want a corset" lol...But, maybe we can start doing some TLC for both sides and see if we can come to a happy medium on a wardrobe that would make him feel confidant and proud of himself on an everyday sort of basis.

Shanagans, the big problem isn't what we're 'allowed' to wear, but that so many crossdressers think that they feel they have the right to insist that other people (most often, we want WOMEN) to LIKE it and be attracted to us that way. And that isn't something that you can legislate.
If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat', and that all men should just accept it and learn to like it. Not gonna happen. You can't change what turns someone on anymore than you can change what turns them off. And if a woman is turned off by a guy who dresses in girl attire, there's no way you're going to make that guy 'hot' to her (other than perhaps having the guy become a billionaire, which might make her willing to overlook the crossdressing and 'close her eyes and do it for king and country' as they used to say). If you start having 95% of men dress and act like girls, then most women are going to be interested in 5% of the men who don't. Sure, some will 'settle', when they realize no other men are available, but you still can't force them to like it.

Honey, that's not just America lol...the problem with obesity is spreading around the world so fast that Michelle Obama doesn't know whether to check her ass or scratch her watch. But, all I have to say about women not really in to men wearing makeup, glitter, high heels, and feminine clothes is what in the Hell happened in the 80s? Because, I think my mom must have fallen and smacked her head on the ground because she's still head over heels for Steven Tyler...and, she's happier than a tornado in a trailer park when she's at a Bon Jovi concert. (Yeah, I was also surprised at the time that he still did concert tours). I think attraction kind of varies with what is considered attractive at the time...I mean, look at a statue of Aphrodite and you figure she's not really a whole lot to write home about...but, I've heard the Grecian people of the time were quite enamored.

But, the "real women have curves" movement Does kind of throw me off in a lot of ways. The idea is that everyone is getting bigger...and, it does seem that way...but, what kind of message does that exactly send to slender women? Are we trying to say that if you are very skinny, you aren't really a woman? We had a whole debate/paper about this in one of my college classes...and, it was really weird to me when I was reading everyone's initial paper/argument that NO ONE brought this up. People seemed to feel pressured to say that they agree that stores/mannequins (as one example) should feature mannequin models that are of a "real woman's" size (or, "more realistic). And, last time I checked, the mannequins in the stores that I go to are all a size 4...I happen to be a size 4. So, pinch me if I am not real....but, God knows I won't find my size on the rack or in that store unless I strip those mannequins down to their birthday suits. We tried to give everyone a break...eating disorders were like through the roof...but, in doing that, we also sent the message to slender girls that it's an "us against them" sort of society, and, oh yeah, they aren't real lol. But, the message wasn't just to women, as you have brought up...it made it to men, as well. And, I am probably finding myself biased, but I run into A LOT of guys that say, "Yeah, but I like a girl with a little bit of meat on her." This is usually after he has been rejected...but, I'm not sure the more "meatier" girls are going to want him much either. But, you can imagine the terrible time that my (male) friends have when going out with me and remarking on the girls they are going to try to [fail royally at] "hooking up with." So, it seems when the skinny girl turns them down, they like a girl with a "little bit of meat"...and, when the girls with a little bit of meat turn them down, she's just a bit too big for them anyway. Either way, it seems like we cycle through quite a number of [failed'] attempts at getting a girl's number before we are finally down to one that apparently met the preferred requirements of meatage. But, it could be that the guys that I hang out with are just like that...they're ex frat boys, so I feel like they've forgotten that this isn't 2010, it's not spring break, and those girls don't care about your "bro" lol. So, this could account for their variability in tastes of poundage that seems to be determined by the woman that is willing to give her the digits...who knows? But, to contrast this situation, I have female friends of all shapes and sizes...and, they never seem to have a shortage in the number of guys trying to hook up with them. And, in general, I see that people seem to date people that are of their same level of attraction...but, I am going through a situation right now with two of my girlfriend whose boyfriends are at that stage where they have been in a relationship a long time, they think that they are more attractive than they actually are, and they have this fancy notion that the only thing stopping them from being God's Gifts to Women are their girlfriends. Usually, it takes a couple of weeks of them being single for them to realize that they really aren't attractive or interesting enough to have women throwing themselves at them...and, that they were actually matched pretty well with the attractiveness of their girlfriends. And, people seem to come in all shapes and sizes...and, it seems to be that people become very similar in the size department once they have been together a number of years. Of course, this will never happen to me and my SO...we have a pact of staying perpetually young, fit, and beautiful...that other stuff only happens to OTHER people. (We'll see if this pact hold true in about 20 years...I have my fingers crossed).

Just have to interject here. This is the version of the story that was being spun by the defenders of Chik-Fil-A on a freedom of speech argument and
had it been the only issue involved, I'd have agreed with it too. But the case wasn't really what he said, but rather that it gave equal rights group an opportunity to shine a light on the fact that CFA as a company had a "charity" wing that was donating company profits to organizations that were actively lobbying top ban gay marriages. He's allowed to think how he wants, and he's also allowed to do whatever he wants with his own personal profits that come from his business as a private citizen. But CFA was, as a company, taking your big gay money, and donating it to anti-gay groups. That's more than a businessman running his dumb mouth, and considering that they actually stopped doing it, the brouhaha was actually effective. As was the similar incident with Target a few years back, in fact Target has reversed their position so far that they're now advocates for equality.

To get back to the real subject at hand though, the fundamental problem whenever someone is being one, to borrow your phrase, is that they're not actually making a proper comparison. I constantly get comments whenever I post pictures of myself as a man in a skirt or dress about how I'm only going halfway or how I'm not finishing the look, because I don't try to pass. If the end game is to pass or to be convincing as a woman, then you're not simply expanding your wardrobe, you're not doing the same thing as a woman putting on jeans.

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."

Also, Shan, I don't think you're being one for returning shoes that make your feet look big. Yes, it's not the shoe's fault because they are inanimate objects and your feet are the size they are, but clothes can draw attention or accentuate things, and so it's not irrational to feel a particular style of shoe is unflattering where others are not. That's not being one, that's coming to terms with limits of your own shape.

Well said! For once, I'm not even sure if I have a whole lot to add. I will say that what you brought up about CFA is interesting...knowing that part of my money goes to support anti-gay groups is a little disconcerting...but, is he just pissing in the wind at the end of the day? I mean, it seems pretty obvious what direction America is moving on Gay Marriage (among other things lol)...so, are these groups much of a threat? But, it gets me if I spin my own argument once more...how would I feel about eating at place that donated part of its earnings to the KKK? It's pretty apparent that no one takes them very seriously anymore...but, STILL, it's the whole principle of it all... I honestly am not sure how I feel.

I will admit that I heard about the whole CFA thing from one of my gay guy friends. In the moment of it all, we were all like, "Yeah! Screw CFA, man!" But, talking about it all really made me want a chicken sandwich...so, after our official gay stance on the CFA issue, I put on my large sunglasses, drove over to CFA, and bought myself a chicken sandwich...and, I swear that knowing that I was being bad made the sandwich the best chicken sandwich Ever lol. And, finally, I came to the conclusion that my love of overpriced sandwiches that are probably filled with cancer was much greater than my hate for their CEO. I was like, "Why am I worried about this dude? I just want to write to him and say, 'Dear Mr. CFA, please shut up and make me a sandwich. Love, Shan.'"

But, now, I am confused again...and, hungry. I'm probably going to fail again...but, I haven't had anything to eat all day, so I am going to justify this chicken sandwich somehow.

Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though!

Debby

I think my SO can probably relate...I'm really going to have to refer him to Donnie's post.

Now, take the opposite approach that one Kanye West tried in December of last year, and Axl Rose from the early 90s, both are known for being very eccentric and not really known for being the most level headed off stage, so despite their successes, people find it easy to criticize them for wearing skirts, cause it's just "another crazy thing they did." If a person like a Regis Philbin type or a Simon Cowell or Ryan Seacrest type wore skirts all the time on stage then perhaps more men would accept them, cause level headed successful men who are pretty well known for having pretty good judgment about things would be a voice of reason speaking for the male skirt wearing, as opposed to a person who is not really known for being of sound mind.

I'm not so sure Ryan Seacrest would get a good reception either in Kanye's skirt. I feel like Kanye knows he was wrong for that skirt...it looked like he stole the leather jacket off a member of Hell's Angels and tied it around his waist. But, I do agree with you...no one feels sorry for Kanye...but, he loves himself enough that I think he'll be okay. (That...and, he's rich).

[tiffanyjo89]

I just remembered, Dan Cathy released papers on the charities that Chick-fil-A supports, and they stopped supporting a large number, if not all, of the anti-gay corporations they provided money to. It appears that people actually peaceably talking to him instead of pulling "Dan Cathy's a homophobic closed-minded jerk who hates gays!" In fact, one person who is a widely known gay person who lead an effort that boycotted many CFA's actually met with Dan Cathy and, after realizing that Dan Cathy had changed his mind on supporting certain organizations but realizing that Dan Cathy will never, most likely, change his mind on gay marriage, decided to change his tune and stop the protests.

I said all that to say this, sure, he fought against Dan Cathy and realizes that, on their personal difference in opinion, that they just needed to agree to disagree, realized that there is a right way and a wrong way to make your point. In any thing, like male crossdressing, you're going to have people who actually hurt the effort rather than help it, unfortunately those people often don't realize it. A person who helps the male crossdressing cause is a person who, when they see that a "female only" store like Victoria's Secret or the women's department of Macy's is kinda crowded probably won't do their shopping during that time but rather come back when the store is less busy, and actually try to not make the SAs feel uncomfortable. Also, a crossdresser who likes to go to the beach in a bikini might not choose to go on the weekend when a lot of families are there. It's part of showing that he is aware that some people are uncomfortable around crossdressers or don't want to explain to their kids why "that man is wearing mommy's swimsuit."

[Shananigans]

I just remembered, Dan Cathy released papers on the charities that Chick-fil-A supports, and they stopped supporting a large number, if not all, of the anti-gay corporations they provided money to. It appears that people actually peaceably talking to him instead of pulling "Dan Cathy's a homophobic closed-minded jerk who hates gays!" In fact, one person who is a widely known gay person who lead an effort that boycotted many CFA's actually met with Dan Cathy and, after realizing that Dan Cathy had changed his mind on supporting certain organizations but realizing that Dan Cathy will never, most likely, change his mind on gay marriage, decided to change his tune and stop the protests.

I said all that to say this, sure, he fought against Dan Cathy and realizes that, on their personal difference in opinion, that they just needed to agree to disagree, realized that there is a right way and a wrong way to make your point. In any thing, like male crossdressing, you're going to have people who actually hurt the effort rather than help it, unfortunately those people often don't realize it. A person who helps the male crossdressing cause is a person who, when they see that a "female only" store like Victoria's Secret or the women's department of Macy's is kinda crowded probably won't do their shopping during that time but rather come back when the store is less busy, and actually try to not make the SAs feel uncomfortable. Also, a crossdresser who likes to go to the beach in a bikini might not choose to go on the weekend when a lot of families are there. It's part of showing that he is aware that some people are uncomfortable around crossdressers or don't want to explain to their kids why "that man is wearing mommy's swimsuit."

Well said in tying those two issues together, Tiff. As far as the whole "save the children" thing and crossdressing...it IS a sticky subject. There are a lot of issues that come with being an open CD that gets into this weird moral grey area. The two big issues seem to be bathrooms/changing areas and exposure to children. In the past, I was kind of offended that a TG person would even have a problem with using the bathroom of the gender of which he/she was presenting. But, then, people had to kind of ruin it for everyone. There were quite a number of articles in the past year about MTF CDs who were kind of taking advantage of the bathroom situation...one guy freaked a bunch of women out, got kicked out of the bathroom, threatened to take legal action...but, turns out he really was a weirdo and had a thing for "making it into the women's restrooms" so that he could take pictures of himself on the can. And, around the same time a person who identified as MTF TS was pretty mad about not being allowed to this all-female feminist festival (shame on them), but went about protesting it in the wrong way...she joined the rape survivors group and got a little explicit on her masturbatory habits as a non-op TS...so, from a group of women who already didn't like having male junk forced on them, they felt like "male junk" was once again forced on them. And, then, there's a plethora of other news stories of some MTF CDs walking around the beach topless...exposing themselves a bit more in changing rooms that I guess we're sort of family-oriented. And, you really can only take the journalists version of the story, but it's also sort of hard for me to understand how flipping the story around would make any of the behavior appropriate. So, it's an example of people who just make an ass of themselves and make the whole community look bad. But, the women with the "bathroom" thing argued that if all you have to do is wear women's clothes and declare you're feeling female to get into a woman's private area, what areas do women have to themselves? (Turns out there aren't many natal females arguing to use the male facilities, I guess). And, though a TS woman should be able to use the women's restroom, the law is kind of vague in that the perv in the dress taking pictures on the can gets free access to an area where women are vulnerable. And, unfortunately, instead of having an empathetic conversation with these women that would make them more comfortable with the community, a lot of the TG community responded with outrage. This outrage was seen by the natal women as men once again being forceful, aggressive, and disrespectful to women to the point that they felt entitled to use the facilities. And, I do think that it's true...a TG woman shouldn't be in the male bathroom. But, damn...I'll be honest...I can see a lot of creepy dudes taking advantage of the situation and ruining it for everyone. (And, they're already doing it). Then, you bring children into it. If the story about the changing rooms is true, I could understand a mother being very upset that her little girl just saw some dude walking around and letting it all hang out. I'm not even sure why this person would do something like that...like maybe go to a stall or something...but, people are weird. I honestly cannot think of a good way to solve these issues. Unfortunately, it would really have to boil down to how "passable" you are...or, being forced to undergo full SRS before being able to use such facilities. And, even then, SRS changes anatomy...it doesn't necessarily make you look more "passable" because we aren't looking up each other's skirts. When it gets down to it, it's not ethical to go about it that way. But, I'm not sure of the way to go about weeding the "legit" from the "opportunists." And, seeing a CD at the beach in a bikini...lets just say that this is a MTF CD that just isn't passing at all in a bikini...is it any worse than a guy in a Speedo? I don't see many mother's complaining about Speedos...I mean, I'd be happy if we banned Speedos, but it's just my personal preference lol. But, I can see where explaining this issues puts a stress on parents that they didn't anticipate. Ultimately, I know most TG people are good people that do no harm...but, there are people out there that represent the community that are frauds and lunatics. The frauds and lunatics get the exposure. I know that my SO could tastefully wear something to the beach (maybe not super tiny bikini bottoms), and not draw much attention for him being "shocking or inappropriate." And, I feel like that's true with most CDs. But, I empathize with these parents...I know I'd do everything I could to protect my kids from anything that I thought could threaten them...and, unfortunately, crazy people get the most exposure. My SO and I never have a problem because we go to places that college kids frequent...there aren't really kids around. And, we aren't provocative or forcing anything on anyone. Everything is always just fine...and, I think we are grounded and respectful enough that we wouldn't get chased away even if we ended up at a place with kids around. But, we've never actually had that situation, so it's hard to say if That's where our acceptance by society ends. It might...even if we're the sane ones. However, being forceful in a disrespectful way that doesn't see both sides of the issue further divides everyone. So, my stance is that I try to listen to everyone...I respect the women and parents who don't want to see it, and I respect the rights of TG people to be treated as the gender that they are. I think the best tactic as a TG couple is to gauge people's comfort level with us...don't attack, insist, or force...but, give them a reason to Want us around. My hope is that when I am a parent, I will deal with explaining life to my kids as we go through it. I was given the opportunity to live with people of completely different backgrounds and social classes...I was given every resource I needed to learn about the world...my mom backed my spiritual choices, even if she didn't agree with them. And, I kind of hope to do the same with my kids. I could have been sheltered away so that I only really had to start seeing/dealing with the world once I was out of my parent's protection...but, that wasn't how it worked. Most of my exposure to the "bad stuff" in life was through accident...my mom and I had it rough for a while, and she was forced to deal with me learning from what was going on, or just try to shuttle me off and tell me to pretend that I saw nothing. I'm thankful for all that we went through...but, she is sad she couldn't protect me from all of that to this day. I guess she was more sheltered growing up, so she thought that sheltering was the best way. But, really, I think loving your kids and taking the time to talk with them about things is the Most important thing. So, maybe my kid gets flashed by some dude in the changing room...maybe there's someone that looks to be mostly male walking around on the beach, topless, with a boob job. I would most certainly take the opportunity to let these people know that they need to consider people other than themselves (though obviously they probably don't care), but I would also write it in to one of life's many awkward moments that I would have to explain to my kid. Hopefully, we get to a good place one day that is ethical for everyone...but, also doesn't make one group feel like they are being forced by "men", or are being forced into a vulnerable position. Obviously, doing that isn't going to make the female community accept you as female. But, where does that leave "just CDs"? What if you're not TS, but you are trying to go out and pass as a woman (like my SO)? What happens here? I hope there is some brilliant person with all of the answers out there, but I haven't found him/her just yet.

[Ezekiel]

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

I'd say that most CDs don't take care to make themselves as presentable when in male mode because they don't really care about their male mode. They only care about their female mode.

Explaining it from my point of view, I think that the ultimate objective of every CD is to go out always crossdressed. And since CDs are in my opinion the most gullible to male/female stereotypes, as in the end what all want is to be that female stereotype they envision, when they go out in male mode (most not all) they do it in a very stereotyped way, as if males don't need to care about being pretty or beatifull.

This is my perception though, I'm not stating an absolute, just from personal experience. I'm extreme myself on this issue as I totally disregard the typical male look, and when I'm forced to go out with it, I don't care how I look. All I want is an absolute female image and yet still identify as male (I have no female persona, I'm male always), so my case is a bit particular, as I don't think that an image has to be male or female exclusively, so not sure if I would be a good example as what I truly want is the destruction of such stereotypes. However, taking this into account, you can pretty much see what I'm trying to say with this statement.

I hope my post is not confusing, I'll make things clear if needed with a second post.

[Wildaboutheels]

Endless typing and whining and hiding behind a keyboard isn't going to change the FACTS. Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care. This is old news. It's not going to change anytime soon. The manufacturers realize this and are not going to produce garments that few men will buy.

"Endless choices" are available to women for 2 reasons. One, women NEED them and two, women will buy them. It's simply that simple.

The pen is mightier than the sword does not apply to CDers. Less typing and more strutting is the simple solution for a non existent problem of Mean Ol' Society. Just "dress" however you want and get out there.

The REAL enemy is as close as the nearest mirror for most here.

[Ezekiel]

Endless typing and whining and hiding behind a keyboard isn't going to change the FACTS. Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care. This is old news. It's not going to change anytime soon. The manufacturers realize this and are not going to produce garments that few men will buy.

Not entirely true. Women do care how men look specially nowadays, and there is androgynous fashion for men out there. There is people that follow androgynous trends and do buy this kind of clothes. Its simply that most crossdressers don't care all they want is female clothes it seems.

[flatlander_48]

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

It's a lack of courage when people have legitimate concerns about their lives, jobs, homes, families, etc.?

[Ezekiel]

It's a lack of courage when people have legitimate concerns about their lives, jobs, homes, families, etc.?

I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

[flatlander_48]

A few things:

• It would be helpful if we all jettisoned the useless notion of Politically Correct. It serves no purpose and is used to foster divisiveness.
• The fact that some women choose to wear male clothing has NOTHING to do with what I wear. It is a choice that they are now free to make. However, women wearing men's clothing has nowhere the impact of men wearing women's clothing. There's a ton of peripheral issues for men that just don't happen for women, or at least not of the same magnitude. Issues like:
  
  • Do you want to be a woman?
  • You are less than a man.
  • Are you gay?
• As men, we are supposed to be the Alpha Dogs. Any hint of female presentation must mean that either you are questioning yourself or that you have outright abdicated male responsibilities and sensibilities. This leaves people in confusion.
• While Society at large has never been happy with gay men and lesbians, lesbians have always been tolerated better than gay men. Lesbians sort of fly under the radar because I think it is less upsetting to the male psyche. Extrapolating, I think this is also part of the tolerance for women wearing men's clothing. People don't automatically attach thoughts of alternate sexuality to women wearing men's clothes these days (but that was probably the case early on).
• As men, we must realize that acceptance/tolerance of women wearing men's clothes was not the work of a minute. The issue here is changing opinions and this takes a long time. Contrasted to discrimination illegalities, the idea is to change behaviors. These are two very different situations and our situation doesn't have much to do with legalities, except at work regarding GENDA (proposed legislation for Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act).
• While I would never complain about women wearing men's clothes as it seems pointless, it would be helpful if women adopted the same approach towards us. I'm speaking in generalities here as opposite sex couples may have some additional issues to work through first.
• Although there is little in the way of female-oriented clothing for men, one of the things that can make a difference is color. I'm speaking of bright colors or colors that have taboos associated with them: pink, fushia, magenta, purple or lavender. I like to wear outfits like black pants, black turtleneck and a bright red sweater. Or purple oxford cloth shirts or purple polo shirts. Many guys that I know wouldn't be caught dead in such colors, but it's my way of bringing a bit of flair into the oft-despised realm of business casual.

I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

Yes, but for many there are REAL consequences. Remember that GENDA legislation is still very rare in the US and many other places. I suspect there are many people would desparately want to live as they choose, but the price is potentially too high.

[DonniDarkness]

This has been a great thread, lets not get derailed by by pointing our "Closet Fingers" at each other. Those who choose to remain in the closet should have our support as well as those who have come out. Even if we dont agree with it personally.

So back on topic....

I really do think it makes you feel good when you get polished up, but he only takes that opportunity for CDing...and, really, it should be just something you get up and do in the morning.

Yeah Shan, This is what im talking about. I see so much pessimism over Mens clothing that really seems unvalidated to me. Im not trying to convince Crossdressers to use mens fashion in an attempt to replace womens fashion in their lives....im just saying that Mens fashion is a great way to pull yourself out of that "Oh, woe is me, yet another day in DRAB" feeling....(or lifestyle it seems for some people).

There is alot of comments among this thread pertaining to men not caring about their everyday presentations and it saddens me. Im a tradesmen...There are days when i look like a bum under the freeway....But i still take the time to fix my hair and dress nice after work, even if all im going to do is watch TV with my wife or shoot bad guys in the face on borderlands2. There was a time when i didnt care how i looked as a guy and it made me sad about myself, when i made the decision to actively change how i looked everyday....or at least part of the day....My attitude and self esteem skyrocketed. Soon after that i found myself more confident when going out in Drag, its like both aspects of my identity benefited from just making time for myself to get polished up everyday.

Im not saying that every crossdresser needs to go out and buy what ever Andrej Pejic modeled last week but if your notice that your feeling "Blah" when your walking around in life, Take Time For The Whole You!

Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care.

Well, This is really pessimistic and untrue. Here is a link to a website that my wife frequents. Shes says that they have a new thread about this every week.

http://theberry.com/2013/02/21/stuff...-29-photos-22/

If you are happy with your style and seeing a GG wearing jeans doesnt bother you, Then i say "Be Happy!"......But if your not happy make changes...how you perceive yourself can make a world of difference.....Fashion is a great way to change that self-perception and thats why there are "ENDLESS CHOICES" in the Womens department....They have had that ish figured out long before we ever did......

Great Thread,
-Donni-

PS
Flatlander almost all of the bullet points you are stating are based on stereotypes and internalized social fears.....or just reinforce them....But i do like the fact that knowing and seeing what other people perceive of LGBT community to be, but i just wonder how much of it is really just internalized by us.

[Jamie001]

I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

This is true but most crossdressers create a very large demon in their own mind that is not real.

[Ezekiel]

The fact that some women choose to wear male clothing has NOTHING to do with what I wear. It is a choice that they are now free to make. However, women wearing men's clothing has nowhere the impact of men wearing women's clothing. There's a ton of peripheral issues for men that just don't happen for women, or at least not of the same magnitude. Issues like:

Do you want to be a woman?
You are less than a man.
Are you gay?

As men, we are supposed to be the Alpha Dogs. Any hint of female presentation must mean that either you are questioning yourself or that you have outright abdicated male responsibilities and sensibilities. This leaves people in confusion.

I totally agree with this, and yes it is indeed extremely comparable to lesbianism being more accepted. A man in a skirt has always been more ridiculed.

Well, This is really pessimistic and untrue. Here is a link to a website that my wife frequents. Shes says that they have a new thread about this every week.

As I stated before, I'm of this opinion. Women prefer men who care about how they look, specially in younger generations this is more accentuated. Clint Eastwood and John Wayne era is over, and I'm glad.

What I'd like to know now, is what younger crossdressers buy for when they are in male mode. Maybe this uncaring trait to make oneself presentable when in male mode is more related to older crossdressers than to younger? Because as you know generations change, time changes and we live in a different era now.

[Badtranny]

But, damn...I'll be honest...I can see a lot of creepy dudes taking advantage of the situation and ruining it for everyone. (And, they're already doing it).

Shan your recent post is enough to fire up a whole 'nother thread.

I have a personal problem with the 'in your face' Trans movement and it's exactly because of creepers like you described. If everyone was just a tiny bit self aware, and acted responsibly, Trans people would have a lot less crap to deal with.

[flatlander_48]

PS
Flatlander almost all of the bullet points you are stating are based on stereotypes and internalized social fears.....or just reinforce them....

No, I'm stating this is the world in which we find ourselves. It is what we have to work against. By no means are most of society's expectations correct or useful. Anyway, in part this is what makes it so difficult. We have all had a lifetime to absorb this B/S.

Also, our situation is considerably different from what women experienced. I don't think there ever was the kind of resistance that women in men's clothes experienced compared to what men in women's clothes have experienced.

But i do like the fact that knowing and seeing what other people perceive of LGBT community to be, but i just wonder how much of it is really just internalized by us.

For some, these issues are deeply internalized. Others, not so much. Unfortunately it's the world that exists just outside our front doors.