Dining out questions

[Rachel Morley]

I totally understand you not wanting to be read and that speaking is problem. In my own case, in the beginning my wife would "do all the talking" but after a while she said no, that she thought that "two GG girlfriends" would order separately and that it didn't seem right to her that she would be, or should be, ordering my food. Net result ... I had to start talking to the waiter/ress ... gulp! Ok, I have to admit at this point that my talking is kept the the absolute minimum and I have practiced (in my best femme voice) the phase "I'll have the same too, thanks" a hell of a lot LOL ... my point is, you can't get away without saying anything, but keep it short and sweet and practice a lot .... unless that is, you want something different on the menu than your wife!!

[Lorileah]

I don't understand the importance of not being 'read'. Who cares?

I care. We all have our own desires/goals when we dress and mine has always been to pass as well as I possibly can when I'm out.

I can promise you that 99% of TGs will be read and are read. You won't get away with not being unless you are VERY lucky and since you brought it up I would say you aren't. Otherwise you would be so confident you don't care. You need to lose that fear because you will be read and you will be outed.

If that's not your desire/goal and you don't care if others see you as a guy in a dress, then that's your choice.

I know very few who think that way. You have a very skewed opinion. Maybe you need to re-examine YOUR prejudices. You definitely need to re-think you will not be read even if you don't speak....you have been read already. Then you even describe yourself later as a guy in dress. Let me tell you a little secret. Unless you are a very small male who was very luck either genetically or have a hormone imbalance (or start hormones before puberty) and spend thousands on surgery, you WILL be read....and you know who will read you? that man ins a dress you mentioned above. I know a Post op TS who has spent close to 100K on cosmetic surgery and she still gets read.

[Chickhe]

If you are 98% good, then the way you can do your meal is have your wife answer for you... 'she will have the special, we are both having the ....'. You just smile and nod and point. It is possible. Just a few words won't get you read.. pretend you have a sore throat or something or speak a different language, if you need an excuse.

[paulaprimo]

i've only been out to eat a few times by myself and had to order in my best female voice. i didn't notice any looks of shock on her part and all seemed to to go well.
the check came to around $22.00, i placed $40 on the table and left the restaurant. smartest move i ever made!! i've gone back there several times and no matter where
they seat me in the restaurant she always seems to wind up as my waitress. wonder if the tip had something to do with it...lol anyways i've since recieved the best service
from her and really don't think it would matter if i had a full beard and wearing a dress. it always come down to the benjamin's, and now i have a nice place to eat without worry!

[Amanda M]

Alesha, I understand your concerns quite clearly. From what I see, being 'read' visually is highly unlikely. Therefor, I suggest some voice coaching - with a lot of practice you will be able to do it quite convincingly.

For me, it's not really a big problem. We don't get out together often, but when qwe do, it seems to work well. Can't say I've ever had any nasty comments or funny looks.

Oh, and Lorileah, some people's prejudices are to them matters of choice or serious issues. What works for you may not work for them!

[Lynn Marie]

I'm sorry, but I don't get this thread at all. If you've been out for 30 years and pass 98% of the time. How did you do this without ever working on your voice? I admire your lofty goal of passing, I just can't fathom how you could have completely ignored the last and most important key to passing. Oh well, this is only my 3rd or 4th year out and sadly, I'll never pass at 6'3", broad shoulders, large chin, big hands, and a deep voice. I make up in confidence, boldness, and graciousness what I lack in passing ability. I've had the hostess in one of the restaurants that myself and a few CD girlfriends dine at actually climb up on a chair to give me a hug on the way out the door. This is the norm for me and my friends. We exude confidence and boldness and fear nothing. The last time out, we had 10 classy ladies raising the bar and looking fabulous.

[Catherine Hopkins]

Alesha - the thing is, there will be two levels of people you're trying to pass TO. The waiter and the other guests.

The waiter is a very big ask. The other guests, much less so.

I did the whole restaurant thing the very first time I went out in public, which was a Friday night to Sunday afternoon trip to Glasgow. Restaurants, clubs and shopping. I had a pal holding my hand the whole way but it was only scary at first and soon became very natural. OK, the waiter probably spotted me but he didn't let on if he did.

And you know what. That experience was so liberating. I have NO qualms about going anywhere it would be appropriate for a woman to venture.

If you want to practice your voice, start singing along to female singers in the car.

[Cheryl T]

Soften your voice and raise the pitch slightly. I know it's scary, but if you've been going out for 30 years then it's time you joined the conversation.
As for not being read...that's not going to happen 100% of the time for any of us. Just be confident in who you are and enjoy yourself.

[Rogina B]

I call BS to your 30 years of going out! It is impossible to be out in the mainstream world without interacting with others. Did you ever get hungry when you were out? Like Lorileah,I find you have an impossible obsession that just plain doesn't matter.And like Lynn Marie,people will be happy to have you,no matter what if you are good with them. How do you assign a "passing percentage" anyway? Have you been talking to Kate Spade? Come on, grow up and enjoy yourself rather than set goals which you will truly never know if you attain.Waitstaff doesn't have to show emotion to you if they clock you,they can talk about it with others in the kitchen while they are gathering their megaphones to stand around your table and embarrass your wife.After all these years,it is about time your wife got some confidence in being with you as well. So,I call BS to your story!

[BOBBI G.]

Personally, being read is not a big issue with me, that will happen, no matter how convincing you may be. My main issue is simple, just accept me for who I am.

Bobbi

[Laura912]

This has been an interesting thread to read. On one hand, the OP asks for help with a specific issue in order to have a pleasant experience with her SO. On the other, some posters come on strongly with severe criticism for that behavior and spend more time chastising (mild choice of word) the OP for having her feelings and asking for help. Then there are those in the middle who listen and try to help. Maybe we could all try helping with a little empathy shown along the way?

[noeleena]

Hi,

Interesting , It would make totaly no difference for myself,
Now what could i pass & not be noted or who would pass me & not ...look... at myself . to me its when people dont look at myself id be very worryed, because then there must be something really wrong with me. do i pass its minis , no way ever .

Voice, after talking to many 1000's of people i was only ever told by a trans woman 7 years ago i would need to sort my voice out ooops was i that bad. so what did i do . nothing , never did nore try to change my voice i wont bore you with detail , it changed , & no one ever says any thing about it, .

What im trying to say is people accept who i am the way i am if my voice is suspect no one gives a damm, nore have, & i really am in the public domain as a P R person. I have & know women who's voice's are lower than mine im allso a singer do soprano & barritone so im some where in there,

One woman is so low i struggle to get down to her bass sound, when i heard her i thought she was a male, jos was with me as well. & we comented on her, wow she is so low, join a singing group & flex those cords, you maybe surprised how you sound after,

...noeleena...

[linda allen]

.................. I've been going out in public for almost 30 years and I feel pretty confident that I can pass 98% of the time. My only concern is if I had to speak because that would surely give it away........

After 30 years, it's apparent this isn't going away.

It's time for you to work on your voice. As someone else mentioned, there are instructions on youtube and I think someone has an instructional DVD on the subject.

Crossdressers appear often on the Jerry Springer TV show and most have a reasonably convincing feminine voice so it can be done. The trick would be to use your female voice often enough that it comes naturally and you can carry on a conversation using it. It's something I wish I could do.

This has been an interesting thread to read. On one hand, the OP asks for help with a specific issue in order to have a pleasant experience with her SO. On the other, some posters come on strongly with severe criticism for that behavior and spend more time chastising (mild choice of word) the OP for having her feelings and asking for help. ..........

It happens a lot here. Many folks cannot think past their own private world and experiences and think everyone should be in that same small world. Any advice they give is based on that small world.

[Sara Jessica]

This has been an interesting thread to read. On one hand, the OP asks for help with a specific issue in order to have a pleasant experience with her SO. On the other, some posters come on strongly with severe criticism for that behavior and spend more time chastising (mild choice of word) the OP for having her feelings and asking for help. Then there are those in the middle who listen and try to help. Maybe we could all try helping with a little empathy shown along the way?

No, it's simply a dose of reality.

Lorileah said it succinctly when she pointed out that 99% of us will never pass. Even those with delusions of grandeur will never truly know if they pass as you have no idea what is being said in your wake, or over dinner that night when the Muggles are having a little giggle at your expense. Life is easier when you accept that passing is not an achievable goal. Embrace the alternative, present and behave with decorum and people will treat you as you present.

This has nothing to do with settling to be seen as a "guy in a dress" (I found that insinuation to be mildly offensive). Instead, it's accepting reality. When I am out & about, I typically go out of my way to engage others. Trust me, they don't bite and when they are providing a service (such as a server in a restaurant or a sales associate at a retail establishment), they are often blinded by the green you are about to spend.

By the way, going out of your way not to speak when in a clearly interactive situation (such as dining out) will only draw further scrutiny, further ensuring that you will not pass.

I truly wish you luck in getting your head around this situation to the point where it is what it should be, a non-issue.

[Claire Cook]

Alesha,

I've frequently dined out dressed with my wife and / or a number of GG friends, and I have never had a hassle. When I order, I guess I speak little more softly, and try to pitch it a bit higher. But .. even if I'm read .. I've never had a problem. I recall once that we were asked who was ordering the wine, so I said "I guess I'm the wine lady" ... a few giggles and we were set. Actually small talk with a waitress (or any GG for that matter) is something I really enjoy -- part of the girl in me coming out. And waiters have been always respectful.

Dining out en femme, at least for me, is a special experience. just a whole lot of fun. I'm sure that your wife can offer tips on how a lady acts at the table -- eat smaller bits, etc. Expect to be treated like the lady you are, and enjoy the evening!

[Rebecca Watson]

My question is, have any of you gone out to a sit down restaurant with someone and enjoyed your meal without being read? If so, how did you handle the speaking/ordering part?

I've probably not achieved this. But I feel it would be easier to achieve at, say, an authentic Indian or Chinese restaurant. People with other ethnicities seem to have more difficulty "reading".

- Becky

[docrobbysherry]

I'm sorry, but I don't get this thread at all. If you've been out for 30 years and pass 98% of the time. How did you do this without ever working on your voice? I admire your lofty goal of passing, I just can't fathom how you could have completely ignored the last and most important key to passing. Oh well, this is only my 3rd or 4th year out and sadly, I'll never pass at 6'3", broad shoulders, large chin, big hands, and a deep voice. I make up in confidence, boldness, and graciousness what I lack in passing ability. I've had the hostess in one of the restaurants that myself and a few CD girlfriends dine at actually climb up on a chair to give me a hug on the way out the door. This is the norm for me and my friends. We exude confidence and boldness and fear nothing. The last time out, we had 10 classy ladies raising the bar and looking fabulous.

Lynn Marie, I think it's wonderful that u can confidently go out dressed, be yourself, have fun, and be treated well by vanillas. Some of us can't comfortably do that, however.

And, in my limited experience of passing, (only one evening), I found being taken for a woman to be an eye opening experience! Men can be very dismissive. And, GG women? Treat u VERY differently!

U must admit, waitresses do NOT generally come up and give new customers hugs. The fact that u were treated BETTER than a regular patron is nice. But, simply enphasizes my point that u didn't pass. Confidence is one thing, passing as a woman entirely another!

[Julogden]

If you can afford a vocal coach, that ought to get the job done. If not, there are various resources available for learning how to develop a convincingly female voice. IMO, the vast majority of us can develop a convincingly female voice if we work at it hard enough, using proven techniques.

Carol

[Lynn Marie]

U must admit, waitresses do NOT generally come up and give new customers hugs. The fact that u were treated BETTER than a regular patron is nice. But, simply enphasizes my point that u didn't pass. Confidence is one thing, passing as a woman entirely another!

Very true Sherry. I'm afraid you missed my point! I'm more than quite well aware that I don't pass, and short of shortening my body and other major surgeries, I'm never going to. My only alternative is to dress well for a classy old broad, and compensate with confidence, boldness, and grace. Pretty simple actually.

[Rogina B]

What Lynn is suggesting is to do your best and be happy for being there.Treat people properly and you will get the same.To hold out from enjoying yourself due to not reaching an immeasurable goal,is silly.Life is way too short for that.

[Debra Russell]

My wifes best friend has a deep female voice , and I have a very deep voice - I do stress a little when out and have to talk but I remember her and that eases the fear - I just keep the banter to a minimum do not act shy and everything will go smoothely...................Debra

[Lorileah]

Oh, and Lorileah, some people's prejudices are to them matters of choice or serious issues. What works for you may not work for them!

Interesting choice of semantics. Prejudice as a matter of choice. Seems like that would be something to work on getting rid of, No? And the replies do not seem to criticize the OP but addresses her worry that one tiny small part of her dressing will out her. Truth is, she will be outed even if she acts like Harpo Marx all night...People are not ignorant on this. They just have other agendas and you sitting there speaking Basso to order isn't going to turn any more heads than you already do. If someone "passes" 98% then the voice isn't going to change anything.

[alesha_cd]

My goodness I didn't expect some of these reactions! Some of you need to chill and loosen up! On the other hand, some of you have your hearts and minds in the right place. I'm beginning to wonder if it's even worth the time asking for advice on this forum with so much negativity and snarky remarks.

The comment I made about some being OK with being perceived as a guy in a dress was simply saying some of you don't try to pass and you don't care what others think and that's OK, but some of us try our best to pass and we DO care how we are perceived. That's what we strive for. If you don't strive for that then don't disrespect those of us who do. I certainly don't disrespect those who don't try to pass. Wow! Some unintentional ruffling of feathers there. It wasn't meant to be a negative comment.

For those who seem to doubt what I have said, that's your choice. I can assure you I've been going out and interacting in public for the past 28 years. Believe it or not, that doesn't have to involve talking to other people. Often times I don't speak to people even as my male self when I'm out running errands or shopping. Going out in public doesn't REQUIRE speaking all the time. Pay attention in almost any department store. Women are too busy shopping; they aren't all chit-chatting with one another. And just because I say I've been going out for 28 years doesn't mean I go out every week. I might get out 3 times in a year some years - if that. Other years it may be more - it varies. Again, we're all different and have different circumstances and degrees of CDing. Linda Allen you expressed it best. Laura912 I wish I could give you a hug!

Thank you Amanda M. I feel pretty confident that I pass visually most of the time. Now before some of you get fired up over that comment, I realize I don't pass 100% of the time but for the most part when I'm out shopping amongst the public, I blend in. If some of you have a hard time believing that then I don't know what else to say. Nailing the voice would be a great thing but it's not necessary for me. Kind of like visually passing isn't necessary for everyone. The whole restaurant idea is just that, an idea. My wife and I have been out shopping on occasion but we haven't gone to a restaurant together. We have however been to a movie. She bought the tickets and we went in together. I was simply asking for some ideas about the restaurant venture and how others have done it. I had no idea some would take it the way they have.

Lorileah, I think you are misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying. I never said I have never been read. I'm not sure where you got that. You speak patronizingly to me and you seem to really want to let me know I'll never pass. So much for encouraging words. I know I'll never pass 100% of the time but I do feel like I have blended in well on several of my outings over the years. Why the anger? What did I say that set you off? I apologize if something offended anyone in this thread. That was never my intention.

Rogina B, yes I get hungry and thirsty. That's why I plan ahead and take snacks and drinks with me. I interact with people without speaking. It is possible. I shop next to people, walk through malls, fix my hair and touch up my makeup in the ladies restroom right next to GGs, etc. all without speaking. If that baffles you or if you think I'm "bluffing", then I can't help that. If you think that's a terrible boring way to spend an outing then I would have to disagree. As for my derived percentage, it's an estimate based upon what I have perceived over the years during my times out. There are times when I can go out and not seem to get any second looks from anyone. And there are times when I seem to get a lot more. I can't see everyone's reactions but I've been going out for a long time and I seem to be able to sense when I'm getting read and when I'm not. Obviously I have no idea what they do behind my back or what they say when I'm not around. Again, it's a perceived percentage. I'm stating a percentage solely for the purpose of letting others reading this thread know how I've experienced the public during my outings over the years. It has nothing to do with vanity or that I think I'm passable as a GG. You're actually telling me to grow up?....Really?! Nice. More condescension.

Thank you Claire and Becky for your wonderful advice. I want to stay positive and say THANK YOU to all the ladies who have provided encouraging words and who have been willing to provide useful suggestions for my original post. I know there will be disagreements. I guess I simply don't understand why some people feel the need to patronize those with whom they disagree.

[meganmartin]

Personally I don't think i have ever sat there and it did not cross my mind that person read me.
I just order another beer and enjoy myself..

But seriously people are in general curious and will look think it is our own self conciousness that will make us think they read us.

Enjoy your dinner with your wife and don't worry what others think.

[Lorileah]

Lorileah, I think you are misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying. I never said I have never been read. I'm not sure where you got that.

maybe the words I am 98% passable?

You speak patronizingly to me and you seem to really want to let me know I'll never pass. So much for encouraging words.

you want sunshine up your skirt? But ordering off the menu is minor.

I know I'll never pass 100% of the time but I do feel like I have blended in well on several of my outings over the years.

Several is not 98%. You don't see saying I pass 98% as braggadocio? The OP read that "if only I could have a female voice, the world would see me totally as a woman". Maybe I misread that? What people are saying here is that your voice isn't the whole thing. You even mention that it is a perceived passing for you. Here is the truth. The world has an agenda, unless you interfere with that agenda people are not going to bother you or call you out. Just because you walked the mall, strolled the sale racks, smelled the roses doesn't mean you passed. You were just not a target a the time. The servers in a restaurant have so much more to worry about than if you sound like Lauren Bacall or Harvey Fierstein and they certainly won't laugh and point if they want to keep their jobs.

There are many many threads about how to change your voice (or walk or mannerisms) with links and directions to other sites. What people are saying here is that with as much experience as you have, why is a thing like talking to a waiter such a big hurdle? And yes I read your comment about how some people here are just guys in dresses as being rather snobbish.