The physiology of "passing"

[reb.femme]

Hi Jennifer, not sure I'm meant to post here as a GG but wanted to say I can usually tell a CD (even before I met my H) and I can't say there was any defining thing. Just a vibe I always got. I think most GG's have this ability but I know for a fact men lack this

Hi TheMissus,

Exactly because you are a GG is the very reason you should post. Keeps the place honest knowing there are comments coming from the very people we seek to either emulate or be.

Reb

[Ressie]

Anatomy would be more descriptive than physiology. Physiology is more about internal organs, cells etc. But this topic got my interest enough to look at photos of myself. What I found is a short neck that can be partially hidden with a wig. Scarves aren't common fashion these days, so wearing one might not be good for blending.

To me, a big problem is the man's stance, but that's a different topic.

[Wildaboutheels]

While it's true that jawline/jaw structure is normally a very good clue, it's the OVERALL presentation that most Humans go by. Note just what they did to her hair and just how tightly it is pulled back. NOT normal to see females like that unless they are working out. It serves quite well to make the jawline much more noticeable.

NGC's Brain Games showed quite clearly 4 or 5 weeks ago that CDers are their own worst enemies using real CDers. CD busting is something only practiced by CDers so a "good plan" is not to worry excessively about passing IMO.

[Jenniferathome]

Hi Jennifer, not sure I'm meant to post here as a GG but wanted to say I can usually tell a CD (even before I met my H) and I can't say there was any defining thing. Just a vibe I always got. I think most GG's have this ability but I know for a fact men lack this a little as I remember in my dating heyday heading to a gay bar dressed to the nines (it was the thing to do back then,lol) and I can't count the men who stopped me to ask if I was 'real' because they'd spent hours unintentionally hitting on men. Still makes me chuckle.

Anyway, just what I've noticed.

Missus, of course you should post! Cross dressers need a woman's perspective. Chime in all you care to. It seem a stereotype that women are more observant but it's a fact. I look in a drawer for batteries and can't find them. My wife looks and produces the batteries in a second. I have noticed when I am out that men seem oblivious to me but the women notice (first). I think the "vibe" comment is a good way to describe the million ways we are different. For the cross dresser, we have to address the biggest ones first.

[Leona]

Aside from the fact that there are many in these pages who believe that confidence is a key in how we are perceived by others, I would still say that most cues are in fact visual. Confidence can help to improve those cues, especially in the body language department (which is still something that is perceived visually).

Ah, one thing I haven't seen brought up is that there are different layers of "passing". Based on what you said below, I'm thinking that to blend, all we need to do is give people enough reasonable doubt that they'll accept us as women, and as long as they don't have to interact with us, then it doesn't matter what they think.

If you really want to be accepted as a woman by everyone, then you have to consider people you're going to interact with at various levels (cashier at the grocery store, waitress at a restaurant/bar, long conversations with random people), but the baseline of passing seems to be what you've described as blending.

I don't use the word "pass" to describe myself. The main reason is that passing as a goal is something a person can never be certain they have achieved. I blend into the world around me and for the most part am treated like any other woman. Yet when all is said and done, I have a personal expectation that I have been read by some/most/all(?) that I am trans-whatever (meaning that because I don't wear a label, the Muggles have no idea if I am a CD'er, TS or somewhere in between).

I like this "I don't wear a label" business. You wear clothes, you express yourself, and let other people pick a label. By this idea, seems that if you do a good enough job expressing your femininity, then people will grant you the label trans quite easily, and may go as far as to grant you "woman". But should they fail to grant you those things and still think you're a man in a dress, that's not your problem, because you didn't bring a label as part of your accessory package.

My hair was quite long as recent as a few months ago before I cut a lot of it off. I got "m'am-ed" in guy mode more times than I can count. The reason was the visual cue of long hair, yet it never took more than a fraction of a second (usually from the moment I opened my mouth) for the person to see the entirety of my presentation which of course would lead to profuse apology. Little did they know that I got quite a kick out of what they said in the first place.

I've never had a particularly feminine shape, but I can tell you for certain that it wasn't *just* the long hair that did it. I had a coworker who knew damned well I was a man complain that everytime I walked away from him, he had to check me out because I looked like a hot chick from behind. It was his bullying that caused me to adopt a swagger, and now I'm trying to unlearn the swagger. Likewise I used to be able to pass on the phone, and that lasted until my mid-20s. Dunno if it was cigarettes taking their toll or the part where I adopted the dialect and manner of speaking of mechanics, but now I can mostly pick and choose my manner of speaking, but my pre-mechanic manner seems to be lost for now.

There were other things. I'd get whistles, and when I turned to look, a group of guys would start cursing and laughing at each other and apologize to me. Also, when I got "ma'am"ed, it would often take several tries (sometimes including puffing out my chest) to get the "Sorry, sir, I don't mean to offend" reaction. I got to where I didn't really care, and it was thrilling on some level.

I've obviously half-way convinced myself that if these mannerisms are still in me and I can bring them out, then I'll be in good shape for blending, as you put a better label on the goal to achieve.

Sara, I've got to point out, you started with something that could have been misconstrued or taken terrible, and I'm really enjoying this conversation with you. (Just mentioning that because of recent drama that went around here.... )

[Angela Campbell]

The look is important but not the most important. I know some who look very good. In pictures they look feminine and they have a good body shape too. They way they give it away is how they move. One look at how they walk, sit, talk and use mannerisms just screams MAN. It isn't easy to unlearn all the man ways we are taught all of our lives.

There is a lot to it, looks, deportment, voice, hair, hands, arms, body shape, smell, facial expressions....the list goes on and on and on. A GG can have an issue with any of these and still do not appear masculine because all the other things match up. For us we need to cover up or change almost anything that is even remotely manly to remove the doubt.

Very difficult but not impossible.

[iyzie]

Examining a skeleton will show you that the width of the neck is determined by soft tissue (not bone). The thicker neck on males is especially caused by accumulated muscle there, so if you manage to lose some of that muscle then the neck to jaw ratio improves.

[Aly Cat]

If what youre saying is true, i might be in good shape if i could ever get a full makeover. I got my moms long skinny neck and my shoulders have never really been build. They are a little wide, but not too bad i guess. I wonder what a full makeover would to for me. Would be an interesting experience. I personally think my mouth gives me away. Its a very distinctive male mouth. Still, a makeover would be nice. I really need to find a place or a friend who would do one on me just so that i could see.

[Leona]

I'm screwed. Completely. Been working in a shop, got muscular shoulders and arms. Distinctly masculine. I could probably cover them with sleeves, but I don't have anything with sleeves. I'm too big a fan of summer dresses and tank tops.

[TheMissus]

Thanks everyone, it's nice to be welcome And Leona, I know this is a passing thread but a man showing muscle in a dress is quite an enticing image. Not the point I know, but I'm a selfish GG and I'd prefer my H showed off his male assets! Guess that's another thread - I'll sneak away now, lol.

[Erica Marie]

Jen I love your research and drive to be the best lady you can. I have searched out so much also. My problem is when I look in the mirror I still see me. No matter how little or how much make up I have on. No matter what attire I am wearing. Either Im not sure what I am looking for or else the look I was given is the look I am suppose to have be it male or female. I guess its what we feel on the inside that makes us the person we are. Problem is what the others see and judge us on by our appearance. Let the world open their eyes and just see us for who we are.

[Sara Jessica]

Ah, one thing I haven't seen brought up is that there are different layers of "passing". Based on what you said below, I'm thinking that to blend, all we need to do is give people enough reasonable doubt that they'll accept us as women, and as long as they don't have to interact with us, then it doesn't matter what they think.

Yes, I guess technically what I'm talking about is blending. The thing is, as I have said before, I 100% expect that I will be read as trans. Accepting this about myself has made my life soooooooo much easier. Unfortunately, not everyone gets this and I took quite the heat in another thread for trying to point this out, pretty much being accused of being content as a "man in a dress" which couldn't be further from the truth. Trust me, I try, I care, and I put a lot of effort into my presentation. I know that I cannot overcome some of the ravages that puberty inflicted on my body, or later on, a visual side-effect from a surgical procedure. Best to accept yourself, accentuate the positives, downplay the negatives as best we can, and move on.

I like the term "reasonable doubt" when applied to our world. That's kind of like the "WTF" that I mentioned before. For example, if my body shape gets me perceived as a natal female on first, second, even third glance and beyond, then I have created reasonable doubt which I'm sure lingers even after I am eventually perceived as trans (as in..."damn, how'd she do that!?!?...emphasis on she as that is how I want to be perceived).

If you really want to be accepted as a woman by everyone, then you have to consider people you're going to interact with at various levels (cashier at the grocery store, waitress at a restaurant/bar, long conversations with random people), but the baseline of passing seems to be what you've described as blending.

Passing in my world (if I must use the term) is one part perception and one part being treated like any other woman out there. You only get that second part by engaging others which is something I do not shy away from and for the most part, I achieve my goal.

I like this "I don't wear a label" business. You wear clothes, you express yourself, and let other people pick a label. By this idea, seems that if you do a good enough job expressing your femininity, then people will grant you the label trans quite easily, and may go as far as to grant you "woman". But should they fail to grant you those things and still think you're a man in a dress, that's not your problem, because you didn't bring a label as part of your accessory package.

I brought up this label point because of real-world experiences. I have had Muggles assume I am post-op. I have had them assume I am a CD'er. The fact of the matter is that I am in the nether-region in between the two but regardless, it goes to show that perception of what we are lies in the beholder. This is what I mean when I say I expect to be perceived as trans-whatever, the goal being that despite such perception, if I am treated like a female, then all is good in my world.

Sara, I've got to point out, you started with something that could have been misconstrued or taken terrible, and I'm really enjoying this conversation with you. (Just mentioning that because of recent drama that went around here.... )

I'm glad you mentioned this Leona because yes, we may very well have started out on the wrong foot. I get a little defensive when threads start to degenerate into comparing our world to that of the natal female who may have a masculine feature or two. I dare to say that if you take 100 females with such features and line them up, 99 of them are going to be correctly identified as females (because of the totality of their presentation, their being). Take 100 of us however, line us up and our masculine cues will get us pegged as guys a very large percentage of the time as well.

All that said, I did my own little experiment yesterday in an outing that lasted the better part of the day. A little backstory...

I have mentioned before that I am blessed to have some semblance of a feminine shape. Namely, my tush. In guy mode I've been told by women that it is the perfect girl-tush. While this wears quite well with most clothing (particularly jeans), the fact remains that my hips and (female) waist still can benefit from whatever improvements I am able to make but really, the only shapewear that I used to wear was along the lines of Spanx, pretty much a garment that smoothes more than shaping beyond a most basic level. Then a couple years ago I discovered a shapewear garment that not only gave me a waist but also made what tush I have naturally become huge (disclaimer, without padding). Thereafter I have been almost obsessive in what other products can be put with this shaper to perfect the look (because the resulting huge tush must be controlled).

Within the last few weeks, I put a bunch of things together and may have found perfection. While getting ready yesterday, I ran a rough measurement of my female waist and hips. Granted this was taken over my outfit but the numbers came out to 33" and 44" respectively. For all of us math majors out there, that comes out to 75% which is darned close to the study that was done on "The Science of Sex Appeal" that I had mentioned before which found a 70% ratio to be "ideal".

I couldn't wait to take this look on the road, not only to see how the shape would be perceived but also to see how I held up on what was sure to be one of the hottest days of the year (for the record, heat was a non-issue). What was unexpected is that while I went about my day with nary a look from anyone (not saying I "passed", simply saying that I didn't see any overt double-takes which trust me, I'm more than used to seeing in my travels), the "ma'am's" that I received were frequent and seemed to be more genuine (rather than patronizing, I guess). It was a neat experience, whether it arose out of my confidence in my appearance or if it was a genuine by-product in how others were perceiving me.

Let the record reflect that my experimentation has also gone to cleavage land and I was rocking that look as well so this girl had a waist, hips, a tush and cleavage that probably had the world saying "WTF" if & when they perceived me as trans.

Sorry to be so long with this little tale. Seemed this thread was a good place to share this experience in that we're talking about what it takes to be perceived as a woman at that first glance. I flew solo yesterday so I don't have any pictures other than the one below of my shadow. Granted, it's a long shadow late in the day which makes me look kind of freaky but I thought it showed the body ratios pretty clear.



Going back to the

[Rogina B]

Looks like the shadow of a GG in pants,for sure. There is an acceptable opposite to passing that also needs to be considered..It is called "celebrity status" and I have it!!You get it from being confident in your right to be there.It takes a thick skin,but it sure has rewards. I do my best,but I know that I will be seen as "trans something" no matter what. Being comfortable with that is a whole lot more satisfying then attempting to attain the unattainable[for most all of us]. Present your best,and treat others nicely,and you'll never care "if they clock you".Better to be a celebrity,then one of the masses!

[Jenniferathome]

...I couldn't wait to take this look on the road, not only to see how the shape would be perceived but also to see how I held up on what was sure to be one of the hottest days of the year (for the record, heat was a non-issue). ...

The onlly conclusion I can reach is that you should Guiness Book of Records right now! Being 16 feet tall with 9 foot legs has got to secure you some record!

[Sandieland]

I was at the Pride Fest in Albuquerque today and I saw a wide selection of ladies in terms of their physical "believability". But the wonderful thing I witnessed was how they all projected an absolute sense of self worth. In fact, some who had quite masculine features projected an assurance of femininity that made one simply not question that they were ladies. Altogether, this thing called "confidence" overrode any doubts of whether they were "passing" or not. I thought they were all simply beautiful. And by the way... with the searing heat today, none were wearing heavy, cover up clothes... lots of beautiful skin was showing. I wasn't ready this year... but next festival, I'm gonna strut my stuff!!!

[Sara Jessica]

The onlly conclusion I can reach is that you should Guiness Book of Records right now! Being 16 feet tall with 9 foot legs has got to secure you some record!

Too funny! I told you the picture was freaky!!!

Looks like the shadow of a GG in pants,for sure. There is an acceptable opposite to passing that also needs to be considered..It is called "celebrity status" and I have it!!You get it from being confident in your right to be there.It takes a thick skin,but it sure has rewards. I do my best,but I know that I will be seen as "trans something" no matter what. Being comfortable with that is a whole lot more satisfying then attempting to attain the unattainable[for most all of us]. Present your best,and treat others nicely,and you'll never care "if they clock you".Better to be a celebrity,then one of the masses!

Great comment! This is actually something I've experienced in many of my travels but haven't put a name on it. It's fun to walk through someplace where the people have actually gotten to know you a bit which of course means they understand the nature of your particular trans. You have provided an illustration of my point to absolute perfection.

So I now have two new (to me) terms for future use, celebrity status & reasonable doubt. It's all good from my POV!!!

[bridget thronton]

Passing is like the Turing test I think - if the observer is not able to do better than chance in guessing you have passed