CD'ers and LGBT

[CherylFlint]

Here’s where it gets tricky.
CD’s who “pass”, no problem.
On the other hand, CD’s who don’t pass but possibly could if they’d care to make the effort, now that’s an entirely another story.
On the whole spectrum, CD’s are at the outside fringe, which is okay with me, I mean I mind my own business.
Drag Queens are something else entirely and I don’t think they’re related to CD’s.
Actually, I think of myself as a TV.
It’s not complicated, but for you CD’s who don’t pass, I won’t suggest you stay home, but for your own safety it be wise to stay safe. Now if you don’t agree with me, that’s okay, just trying to keep us all safe. It’s the mean punks, probably guys who are like us, or wish they had the nerve, so they lash out, especially if they have two or three of their friends with them.
Note to NathalieX66: I really enjoy reading your comments.

[Lorileah]

Do they even want to include us under the "transgender" umbrella if we're not considering transitioning?

Who are "they"? In general the CDs here don't WANT to be with the LGBT groups because they are so afraid they will be labeled "Gay". I see so many here with loud voices chiming they don't need or want help or general acceptance. Yet they are willing to take what they get from the actions of others.

I'd like to join forces with the LGBT community, as there's strength in numbers, and they've made tremendous strides in gaining acceptance.

I'd like to expand their horizons, bolster their influence, and contribute to their voter base... all by adding two letters... LGBTCD ...

and why then aren't you happy with the "T" part? By definition (and I know there are three people here who will fight me on this but you have to accept a definition for ALL and not just the few) transgender... of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds ...

Is that really so hard?

I ask you the same question, is it hard to accept that Transgender covers CDs? Why do you need to split into a different faction?

[Jacqueline Winona]

I'm the contrarian on this one. Most of the Gay and Lesbian friends I have do not consider crossdressers part of the fold. They are always glad to have allies and appreciate the support, but they are not marching for the right for men to wear dresses. Cheryl is right that Drag Queens are something totally unrelated to CD's, they have been part of the Lesbian and Gay movement since the beginning. The T in LGBT is for Transgendered of course, but like many of us, that doesn't mean any possible form of transexualism, crossdressing, cisgender, etc. Those of us who do dress 24/7 and/or identify as the opposite gender primarily seem to be the consensus of what T means to the LGBT community. Again, this is based strictly on what I hear and know.

[GroovyChristy]

I think CDers DO fit in with the LGBT community. It is becoming more frequent to see it labelled as LGBTQ, Q standing for queer which, as I understand it, includes anyone who doesn't fall into traditional gender identities. I have the good fortune of being bi, so I find solidarity in the LGBTQ community anyway, but my experience with others leads me to believe that LGBT folks are willing to accept CDers.

[PaulaQ]

Cheryl is right that Drag Queens are something totally unrelated to CD's, they have been part of the Lesbian and Gay movement since the beginning.

I don't mean for what I'm about to say to sound combative, or hostile. I don't mean it that way - I love you and Cheryl both, and mean no disrespect. <3

But can someone answer for me why "Drag Queens" aren't gay men who CD? I've heard many "explanations" of this - but all of them, so far, have struck me as mostly bullshit and arm-waving. Mostly it comes down to "bu-bu-but everbody KNOWS it's different!!!!!!!" OK, why? I'm listening. Why can't this be related in some manner? Sure, it may not be EXACTLY identical - but really, what is the major difference that makes men who habitually wear women's clothes something totally different from other men who wear women's clothes?

[AmyGaleRT]

Paula, the main thing that makes "drag queens" different is that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men, which would make them part of the gay & lesbian movement by definition.

Or you can apply Noxeema Jackson's definition from To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar: "When a gay man has way too much fashion sense for one gender he is a drag queen." (Perhaps that makes us CDs straight men who have way too much fashion sense for one gender? )

- Amy

[Greenie]

Without outing luca this weekend to my friends I asked what they thought about CDers. I think its funny because even in the LGB world.... they don't get it.

I asked the girls, all lesbians and some of the gay men and got two responses. Well they are like drag queens where they are gay men who dress as women, but they want to be more realistic. Or aren't CDers transsexual. Some of them thought CDing was a gender issue, while some thought it was purely sexual.

How can a community that knows NOTHING about you accept you and welcome you into the fold as one of their own.

When I tell people that the majority of CDers are hetero males they look at me all confused like I am a crazy person.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, the main thing that makes "drag queens" different is that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men, which would make them part of the gay & lesbian movement by definition.

I know that. And I'd say "and so what does that have to do with anything?" Oh, OK, they are gay and they dress for entertainment purposes. Arm waving. Why is any of that so different? I'm sure I'm stupid and stuff - but I am one of those annoying kids who wants the teacher to explain WHY something's so. Sure you can make up distinctions for different groups based on what they say about themselves - but really, is that so useful? I mean, sure, call people what they want to be called - I have no problem with that. Just don't pretend like it means much of anything.

[Lorileah]

I'm the contrarian on this one. Most of the Gay and Lesbian friends I have do not consider crossdressers part of the fold.

Would you want someone to be part of your club that constantly said they didn't want to be part of your club? Think about it. The L&G community works to get things changed. The CD community goes home and has chips and dips and complains that they can't go out dressed because of "them" (whoever them is?) But when they get asked to stand up there is a million excuses from..."aw gee I don't want to look gay" to "My wife won't let me" to "what will the neighbors think?" Look around here. We can't even agree to be together as a unit. How did the song go?

There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha - we got to live together

So why would the G&L community want us on their coat tails....BECAUSE they know oppression. They know that until EVERYONE is equal NO ONE is equal. Yet we could not put together a baseball team here because everyone would want to redefine the rules.

Here is the truth (and it is the truth not your perspective) The LGBT community works for ALL people who fit the LGBT definition. GLAAD, HRC, ILGA, IGLYO, Equality (and many states go here), Lambda legal, Gay and Lesbian task force, Outserve (who recently started working for T service people to get the same right the L&G now have), and about two dozen T rights groups. They don't hate us as groups. members may not like us but we don't work hard to be thier friends either. They put wording in their cases for the Ts but it gets eliminated when the straight governing people think we would scuttle the bills (so blame the straights not the gays). Tell me if there was a chance you could get something you want and all that stands in your way are a bunch of wishy washy scared of shadows and don't want to be with you people, would you demand they still be brought along? You know the joke about running from a bear right...well as long as we sit here and complain about how we AREN'T something, we are the bear bait.

When the "I am not a Transgender because my dressing isn't about being a woman" people finally figure out that they need the same help the rest of the TG community needs and we all play on the same playground with the same rules, we will get the acceptance. In the meantime look who the mainstream sees as the T community...Drag Queens, Felons, Clowns, bad movie actors (the movies are bad not the actors...Sorry but Tootsie doesn't help our agenda at all...he did it to gain something for him then let it go when he got it).

How many went to PRIDE? I did as a show of solidarity even though I believe the majority there were for the party and not to gain rights like the old days. Scream from the ragters "I am NOT gay!" but when push comes to shove guess where you will be placed? You can either work with them or you can fail with them...your choice

[Greenie]

Sure you can make up distinctions for different groups based on what they say about themselves - but really, is that so useful? I mean, sure, call people what they want to be called - I have no problem with that. Just don't pretend like it means much of anything.

I think this is like the idea of how a square is a rectangle... But a rectangle is not a square.

A drag queen is by definition a CROSS dresser. (dressing in clothing of that of an opposite sex) but a CDer s not a drag queen. Drag queens have an element of theater and acting to them. I have heard rumors that the word Drag comes from the time of Shakespeare when women were not allowed to be on stage, thus men needed to DRress As Girls DRAG. This was referred to as drag. If this is true it would make sense because I feel like drag queen still have a theatrical element to them. They are putting on a person as an act, while CDers often adopt a persona they wish to embody for real... Not as a façade or for entertainment, but for personal reasons.

[PaulaQ]

If this is true it would make sense because I feel like drag queen still have a theatrical element to them. They are putting on a person as an act, while CDers often adopt a persona they wish to embody for real... Not as a façade or for entertainment, but for personal reasons.

There are many CDers who will tell you they dress for personal reasons, but do not want to be women. Why is the desire to be theatrical not a personal reason? By the way, I've talked with CDers here who put on webcam shows. Is that not theatrical?

Drag queens tend to be WAY more open than the average girl on this forum - except for the girls here who count themselves as CDers who go out in public all the time.

I am asking - does the motivation for a behavior that is as socially unacceptable as MtF cross dressing really make that much of a difference? BTW, there are FtM drag performers too. There aren't any FtM cross dressers as best I can tell, because women can wear anything, so being a FtM CD isn't really possible. (Or at least it's real damn hard for them to be taken as the opposite gender.)

I don't deny that Drag Queens and most of the CDers here on this forum are different subcultures - but does this really make them different in terms of the underlying things that causes their behavior? I have my doubts of this. Really serious doubts. Mostly because these explanations really do seem like arm-waving to me.

[Beverley Sims]

Rebecca,
I agree with your post, labels are for clothing, they have a size and sometimes useful washing instructions.
If I make a packet pudding I will read the directions.
If I wish to prepare a gourmet dish of some kind I will consult a recipe book.
If I wonder who I am?
I get dressed and go out.
Let someone else worry about it, I don't.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Would you want someone to be part of your club that constantly said they didn't want to be part of your club? Think about it. The L&G community works to get things changed. The CD community goes home and has chips and dips and complains that they can't go out dressed because of "them" (whoever them is?) But when they get asked to stand up there is a million excuses from..."aw gee I don't want to look gay" to "My wife won't let me" to "what will the neighbors think?" Look around here. We can't even agree to be together as a unit. How did the song go?


So why would the G&L community want us on their coat tails....BECAUSE they know oppression. They know that until EVERYONE is equal NO ONE is equal. Yet we could not put together a baseball team here because everyone would want to redefine the rules.

Here is the truth (and it is the truth not your perspective) The LGBT community works for ALL people who fit the LGBT definition. GLAAD, HRC, ILGA, IGLYO, Equality (and many states go here), Lambda legal, Gay and Lesbian task force, Outserve (who recently started working for T service people to get the same right the L&G now have), and about two dozen T rights groups. They don't hate us as groups. members may not like us but we don't work hard to be thier friends either. They put wording in their cases for the Ts but it gets eliminated when the straight governing people think we would scuttle the bills (so blame the straights not the gays). Tell me if there was a chance you could get something you want and all that stands in your way are a bunch of wishy washy scared of shadows and don't want to be with you people, would you demand they still be brought along? You know the joke about running from a bear right...well as long as we sit here and complain about how we AREN'T something, we are the bear bait.

When the "I am not a Transgender because my dressing isn't about being a woman" people finally figure out that they need the same help the rest of the TG community needs and we all play on the same playground with the same rules, we will get the acceptance. In the meantime look who the mainstream sees as the T community...Drag Queens, Felons, Clowns, bad movie actors (the movies are bad not the actors...Sorry but Tootsie doesn't help our agenda at all...he did it to gain something for him then let it go when he got it).

How many went to PRIDE? I did as a show of solidarity even though I believe the majority there were for the party and not to gain rights like the old days. Scream from the ragters "I am NOT gay!" but when push comes to shove guess where you will be placed? You can either work with them or you can fail with them...your choice

Where in my post did I ever say the Lesbian and Gay movement hates CD's? I said something very different, and Greenie's post is pretty similar to what I hear from members of the "LGBT" community;, they really don't see the connection between them and (heterosexual) crossdressers who aren't a)attracted to members of the same gender or b) considering transition. It isn't the same to them. It doesn't mean they don't support liberty for all who want it, or nonconformance, but their movement still primarily is about getting equal rights for those who are actually gay, lesbian, or bisexual. As far as what they do politically, of course they support their core philosophies more than other points of view. In this respect, they aren't a lot different than any other lobbying group; unions support prevailing wage issues all the time but don't have any problem not insisting on farm laborers getting a true living wage when it comes time to get a bill passed.

As for the parade issue, No I didn't go to any, it doesn't mean I don't or haven't supported every initiative on the issue of same gender marriage, haven't publicly thanked friends who were fighting for this issue 20 years before it finally passed, haven't gone out of my way to influence how people think of people in the LGBT community (your definition or mine), and haven't tried to raise my kids to accept people for who they are at all times. Maybe some don't think that's enough but I respectfully disagree. I simply can't pretend that I believe that I should be included in the LGBT community because I too think the issues they face are a lot different than anything I have or will ever face. Nonetheless, I and the LGBT community do agree on many of the same issues, and for that I am thankful for them even if I don't consider myself a part of their movement.

[Angela Campbell]

It is funny. People in our group...cd's, TG, TS, genderqueer.....all fight so much between themselves about terminology they cannot focus the fight where it is important. The LBGT pride movement was begun by Crossdressers and gays at the Stonewall riot. We are part of it but have such a small voice still. Maybe because so many of us are so secretive. We seem to be in refusal to be put in any group. As soon as a group is identified we get the old "I am not one of those". Self denial, refusal to be inclusive, and fighting over "labels" (lol) doesn't help. No wonder we have such a small voice in the LGBT world. Where would the gay rights situation be if the gays and lesbians clung to yelling..."do not label me, I am not gay, gay is a label, I hate labels"! No they say "I am gay and I am proud!" A label is a name that describes, it is good and it is important, and like it or not we all have several. I am a man, I am a woman, I am black, I am white, I am young, I am old, all are descriptive labels. Be proud of your labels because you have them whether you want them or not.

Either way I have enough on my plate as it is without getting involved in the politics of the situation. I support Pride, and all they represent but I have my own battles to fight. I am Transgendered! I am also Transsexual! I am proud! I wear my labels everyday.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I do have a ? now some have said what about thier rights . what rights are being refered to. now the ? with that is who here is male & likes to dress, or crossdress. this seems to me to be about men wonting our womens rights , that ...our... women were fighting for from the 1880' to 1920's yet what i keep hearing is about the dressers rights.

okay since you are men you allso wont ...our ... rights as well as yours as men. men took our rights away, we have many back yet you wont it all back so by dressing where are we left , you wont us to accept you as though you are women, you wont every thing tollets being where we are & live, you are takeing over our space . some of you wont to take over our jobs / work, work place's, what you may throw back at us is we have taken over your domain , well you did not allow us to be there even if we had wonted to be there, exception was the 2n WW. something sure changed there,

We had to take over because we had no men to man the work our women ...had.... to just do it.

So the ? is who are the women here the real women. i think its about the real ...need... not another wont or i wont ...i wont....

...noeleena...

[Kate Simmons]

This is the very reason that I focus on the fact that we are all people and not this , that or the other thing.

[Rogina B]

For me,being a part of a Pride event or an Equality event is to show the world that T's are real and part of the whole civil rights movement.Happy to be out there in the public eye and be counted!

[Briana90802]

I've always felt that we were excluded from the lgbt community for the simple reason that the majority of us aren't gay. Vice versa, we stand alone from the straight side too because they don't understand us and because they think we're gay.

[melissakozak]

Back in the early 1990's, the trans community was politically split and it still is to some degree...the problem with integration is simple: drag queens, CDs, and TGs and TSs all have different reasons for presenting as the opposite but to many who are ignorant about our particular reason, we all kinda look the same to some degree....get it? That being said, many large LGBT groups in large cities are pretty open to CDs as well, at least that is my experience....do we belong to the LGBT community? Yes...

[Tina B.]

We not only belong to the LGBT movement, we are the original T in LGBT. The word Transvestite (which only means by definition, Crossdresser, or dressing in the clothes of the opposite gender. The word Transvestite was around way before Transsexual. So we are the original T, in LGBT, like it or not!

[linda allen]

One, technically crossdressers are transgender......

No, I don't believe so. I am a straight male crossdresser. Nothing "transgender" about me. My gender is male, my clothing and presentation may be female from time to time, but that's all there is to it.

[Alice Torn]

Right on Kate Simmons.

[Brooklyn]

I did drag years ago and am getting involved in it again now. Many queens are actually TS; I know of two here in San Antonio and there was one who came out on RPDR this past season. We are part of the same community and the only real fights we usually have are over makeup brushes, hunty!

[mariehart]

This thread typifies the problem. We have difficulty in defining ourselves. The main reason is that people who wear the clothes of the opposite sex cover the spectrum. If you're gay you're attracted to men not women. Lesbian you are attracted to women only and bisexual both sexes. That covers the LGB. The problem with the T is it's ambiguity and it's scope. From straight men with a fetish interest in lingerie right across to people who realise they are in the wrong body when they were little children.

So no wonder there are problems. The classic or cliched CD is a man who is straight, often married who enjoys wearing women's clothes for it's own sake. I think I would say the majority of those men would feel they have nothing in common with the LGBT grouping. But as we know that isn't the whole story. Many of us would be also be gay or bisexual so would fit in with the LGBT grouping. Then of course there's the whole range or sub groups. People who are transitioning, not transitioning, think they're CD but really TG/TS, those who can't decide or admit to it and those who are too scared to take it any further.

My attitude is that LGBT should be inclusive and generally is but everyone has an opinion and a prejudice. There is nothing to stop straight people walking in a Pride parade and many do, crossdressed or not.

I don't think there will every be an easy answer to any of this.

[arbon]

I think rather than adding more letters onto the lgbtqa, or showing up in pride parades, crossdressers would be better served by just being out and open. You gain acceptance from others by actually having the courage to be out and open with them. One person at a time.