CD'ers and LGBT

[Kimberly Kael]

First thanks for the cis definition-appreciated.

Leona did a good job of getting the basic meaning across. Technically, cis is a Latin prefix meaning something like "on the same side of", whereas trans means "on the opposite side of."

As Rog pointed out the Bs sort of fall betwen the cracks as they may also be in the CD community.

For similar reasons, too. Both groups tend to be relatively invisible because they can fall back on straight/cisgender privilege. For many it's quite possible to remain entirely closeted and live a fulfilling life. That double-edged sword makes things much simpler until recognition would be useful. Then it gets very difficult because it looks like you've been doing fine all along, and no one can imagine why you'd want to complicate your life. It can go the other way, too. My aunt is bisexual but dated women primarily until she met and married a wonderful man. I'm sure there are some in the family who think of her as an ex-lesbian instead of bi.

I ask you to consider working publicly to eliminate the entire population calling themselves G or L or B or T and just lump them altogether and call them "the different people"? Silly isn't it?

Only because you picked a silly name. We already do use gay to refer to lesbians, queer to refer to everyone in our community, and LGBT really is a collective term we use with enormous regularity. It's not so silly, after all. As individuals it may make sense for us to quibble with terminology and try to describe how we feel, but as a group it's politically valuable to align interests. You could also argue that another fairly common term for all of us is "gender variant." Attraction to the opposite sex is just one of many presumed norms.

[Badtranny]

As somebody who is actually IN the community and hangs pout with real "queers" I can tell you that queer is NOT a pejorative anymore. We have taken it back.

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r.

[Stark]

Hi Julie,
"cis" is a prefix adopted from Latin and means roughly "on this side of." It's used to describe people who identify with the sex they were assigned at birth.

[Leona]

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r.

I think that if people want to remain closeted, they need to put forward a public face of being LGBT ally. That's the least they can do.

But being downright homophobic and/or transphobic while being a closeted CD is unacceptable. I don't even have words to describe how angry that idea makes me. I spent a long time denying to myself that I was a crossdresser, and in that entire time I vocally defended the rights of people to wear what they want, seek surgery if that's what they needed, and so forth. Because at that time, it wasn't about me, it was about what was right!

You can keep your identity a secret, but you can't use your cis privilege to hurt the rest of us.

[Rogina B]

As somebody who is actually IN the community and hangs pout with real "queers" I can tell you that queer is NOT a pejorative anymore. We have taken it back.

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. secretive,

As the T ambassador for my UU church,I am also the only B on the welcoming committee.I have been asked more than once after the service to explain the psych of a B..The misconception is that "straight" people think we "go with just anyone". As a committee,I see that the closeted gay members are the ones that,"because they are comfortable on the down low" they are resistant to joining with the very dramatic and demonstrative gays that are highly visible. It is mostly the same situation for the L's that are "partnered up". Not eager to put it out there!

[Rianna Humble]

Briana, you have it wrong by 180 degrees. It is not that the LGBT community excludes you, it is you yourself who excludes the LGBT community by standing to one side shouting "I am not gay!"

I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans community as much as I disagree with your refusal to accept LGBT help because you dislike the sexuality of one part of that community. Go back and reread the history of Stonewall, I'm pretty sure that the cross-dressers who were being attacked by police didn't shout out to the rioters "Eww! Don't stand up for us, we are not gay!"

[Sandieland]

As someone who has known he was Bi for about 33 years now, my crossdressing seems to strike at a need inside that is essentially non-sexual... at least for me. I put aside my CDing some years ago and am only now in a position to start again...and with a vengeance. It's as if this other person inside of me needs to step on out for some fresh air - it's just that she needs to have new clothes and work on that damned makeup a bit more. LOL

[TheMissus]

Wow, so confusing! So a cisgendered straight man who identifies FULLY as a man but has a sexuality that involves fantasising at being a woman and presenting this way - what is he?? Is he transgendered or just kinky??

I know my H doesn't want to join a movement or anything as what he does is very private, but I can see where these labels get confusing as he's also nothing like the men here who identify and dress as women full time. I imagine what my H does is actually insulting. So can one label really define anyone who's ever CD? Or is this like suggesting all people who've ever had a same sex fantasy are gay?

Yep, very confusing.

[Leona]

TheMissus: We had a pretty active thread about transvestic fetishism. It would be worth it for you to dig that one up and read about it. Even if not that thread, googling the phrase should give you some stuff to read.

TF's are still classed as transgender under APA guidelines (the DSM). But for that, "transgender" is a medical word, not a political one, and we most often use it in a political sense here.

And no, what he does isn't insulting to us. There are plenty of people here who identify along similar lines. The main question is whether or not it's hurting his life, and if it's hurting his relationship with you, then it's a problem for which he may need counseling.

[Rianna Humble]

So are you saying that nothing your husband ever does crosses the gender divide? What about when he presents as a woman, is he not then crossing the gender divide? Trans means across, why is that so hard for some people?

[TheMissus]

Thanks Leona, I'll have to look up that thread as I've heard Transvestic Fetishism before and I think my H has said this of himself, along with the autogynephilia thing. I do know he spent some time pondering what all this was (I might have made him, lol) and I think he'd almost hoped it was more a 'feminine identity' issue as there's less stigma with that. But reality is he does it as a sex thing and even when fantasizing about looking like a women he's STILL a guy ogling her. I'm equally confused about this, lol.

But this is off thread topic so thanks anyway for the info and I'll go have a read

So are you saying that nothing your husband ever does crosses the gender divide? What about when he presents as a woman, is he not then crossing the gender divide? Trans means across, why is that so hard for some people?

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words. But yes, when you put it that way my H's fantasies are a trans thing as he does cross gender lines in his head and clothing - I just didn't know if the other groups wanted fetish types included. I guess that clears this up for me.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words. But yes, when you put it that way my H's fantasies are a trans thing as he does cross gender lines in his head and clothing - I just didn't know if the other groups wanted fetish types included. I guess that clears this up for me.

Your husband is probably a "transvestic fetishist". Statistically speaking, TVFs are the largest group of people who crossdress (in the most broad sense of crossdressing.) They are often looked down upon by the more out and visible transgender community, presumably because some who are TS feel it diminishes their suffering in the eyes of the general public, in that TS is often confused with TVF. Some also think that if a man is TVF he does sexually inappropriate things like expose themselves like a flasher or something, which is not true (some men who do sexually inappropriate things are TVF, but not all TVF do sexually inappropriate things.)

One of the groups that make up the "transgender population", in its most broad definition, are TVFs.

[Rianna Humble]

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words.

My words were too harsh, you did not deserve the criticism, I am sorry

[Marleena]

It is not that the LGBT community excludes you, it is you yourself who excludes the LGBT community by standing to one side shouting "I am not gay!"

That is a recurring theme in these type of threads. Then there are those who reject being called transgender for whatever reason. Representation for people who are gender non conforming is a good thing in my books.

[Jacqueline Winona]

If nothing else, I think we've established that there is a wide variety of opinions on what is transgender. And there should be, there is a subjective element to this definition. Here is more food for thought: You may have heard that the California Senate recently passed a bill allowing Trnasgender students to play on athletic teams and use facilities consistent with the gender that they associate with. I was curious about how the Senate defined transgender, as every news organization and every trans support group (and many others) ran this story last week. Here is the actual language of the bill: " A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs, and activities, and facilities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."
I agree with using this to define transgender- its about identity in my opinion, and those in my book are the people who should be considered part of the T in LGBT. I don't relate with that definition personally, and no matter how many times people can tell me I'm part of that I won't agree with you. It isn't about being ashamed to associate with the gay community, I've been the only hetero male at my gay and Lesbian friends parties on several occasions and have nothing but good things to say about by experiences. It's frankly more about being honest with everyone to me- I haven't ever been told I couldn't marry whom I wanted, haven't been discriminated against because I like to dress once in a while. Once or twice someone may have been mean to me when I was trying to buy clothes, but that's hardly discrimination. As far as supporting people who do associate with the LGBT groups, as I said earlier, I got your back and always have. And I think most typical crossdressers feel the same way.

[flatlander_48]

In thinking about this from the perspective of being a bisexual and a crossdresser, I would broaden out the definitions. In other words, we are all what is considered sexual minorities. As such, that should be our unifying point.

[Eryn]

^^^^ As a straight CDer I agree wholeheartedly.

[Julie Gaum]

I must get back on to ask Vickie to kindly hold your conclusions until you've spent more time, as most of us have, to learn what makes
this diverse group of members do what they do (which also varies widely). To say in effect that most CDs are TVFs is very far off in several aspects. I'm not being unkind just asking for you to dig a lot deeper.
julie

[AmyGaleRT]

The word queer can still be derogatory but is being reclaimed and often times LGBT will end with a q so LGBTQ.

I thought the "Q" in "LGBTQ" stood for "Questioning," as in, somebody who might be one of the "LGBT" but doesn't know for sure.

Actually, I think they use a bigger acronym now, "LGBTQQIA", where the second "Q" does stand for "Queer" in the sense you mean. (The other letters are for "Intersexed" and "Allies.")

You know, I got told "Have a gay day!" at Pride and didn't really think anything of it. It just fit the setting.

- Amy

[RebeccaLynne]

... and have read every reply thus far. I would respond to each of you individually if I had the time, but the responsibilities of earning a living and and tending to my obligations takes precedence.

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general.

Oh, great... if as a genetic male I choose not to dress as a woman in public, I'm on their s*** list... that's really an incentive to solicit their acceptance... :brolleyes:

Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r
.

I disagree totally with your premise quoted above. I constantly argue in hostile territory for the right of people to love who they choose without discrimination by those who don't understand that position.

See the first section I've underlined... there you go, beating up on those who aren't "out" like yourself... you're proving my point. Yes, I realize you're transsexual; however, there are many here who aren't. We're just crossdressers, right?

On to the last section I've underlined quoting you in the above... correct me if I'm wrong, but do you have issues with heterosexuals? And if you do, I find that to be intensely offensive. At least as offensive as you believe "straights" are to "gays"?...

If you'd like to pursue this in private messaging, I'm amenable... I'll even provide my phone number in order to dispense with the formalities, and have a heart to heart conversation. Maybe we can avoid having this thread closed prematurely by sullying it with personal attacks, either real or perceived.

I think that if people want to remain closeted, they need to put forward a public face of being LGBT ally. That's the least they can do.

But being downright homophobic and/or transphobic while being a closeted CD is unacceptable. I don't even have words to describe how angry that idea makes me. I spent a long time denying to myself that I was a crossdresser, and in that entire time I vocally defended the rights of people to wear what they want, seek surgery if that's what they needed, and so forth. Because at that time, it wasn't about me, it was about what was right!

You can keep your identity a secret, but you can't use your cis privilege to hurt the rest of us.

Thank you, Leona. I've known I was a crossdresser since the age of four (although I certainly didn't yet know the meaning of my feelings at that time), I've never denied being one... I knew who I was, and was OK with it. I agree wholeheartedly with the balance of your statement. I've done the same, and it really is all about the principle.

I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans community...

Please quote specifically where I (the original poster said that... 'cause it isn't in existence. Never was, never did. Nothing has been edited.

Go back and reread...

I'd suggest you do... and don't try to put words down, attributed to me, that I've never written... do your research!

[Badtranny]

... Oh, great... if as a genetic male I choose not to dress as a woman in public, I'm on their s*** list... that's really an incentive to solicit their acceptance... :brolleyes:

You don't need their acceptance. Just know that closeted people are looked upon as interlopers. It is what it is. Don't moan at me about it.

I disagree totally with your premise quoted above. I constantly argue in hostile territory for the right of people to love who they choose without discrimination by those who don't understand that position.

...and that's commendable, but please don't pretend that you are not an exception. Most closet cases (and I used to be one of them) are silent at best about the rights of LGBT folks. If they weren't, there would be no political debate about it. If every CD stood up in support of alternative lifestyles like you do then the sociopolitical landscape would look completely different.

If you'd like to pursue this in private messaging, I'm amenable...

There's nothing I have to say that can't be said publicly. I detest private conversations because I want everything I say to be on record. I don't frequent this forum to make friends to chat with. I am here to log my thoughts and opinions as I go through my transition. When I finally leave I will have left behind a body of knowledge that will help countless people for years. I'm here to cut away the poo and get to what's real about a gender transition. Like it or not, I write about what I experience, and I've experienced closeted people getting very little respect in the LGBT community.

[Leona]

In a roundabout way, you two have already agreed with each other, just pointing that out. Rebecca agreed with my statement agreeing with Melissa's.... It's starting to take on a Pythonesque tone, so let's just go all the way and be Python girls with terrible falsettoes.

There's nothing I have to say that can't be said publicly. I detest private conversations because I want everything I say to be on record. I don't frequent this forum to make friends to chat with. I am here to log my thoughts and opinions as I go through my transition. When I finally leave I will have left behind a body of knowledge that will help countless people for years. I'm here to cut away the poo and get to what's real about a gender transition. Like it or not, I write about what I experience, and I've experienced closeted people getting very little respect in the LGBT community.

That emphasized part, absolutely. I come from a Free Software background where transparency is key. A project can live or die based solely on how transparent it is.

Of course, that means I'm used to flame wars developing and moderators letting them run their course for awhile...

[busker]

as a group we get along fine and hardly need to spit hairs by suggesting that CD is something different from TG

Just as an example, try this line with engineers. There are electronic engineers, automotive engineers, there are engineers on trains, sanitary engineers, etc etc, etc, Do you really think people want to be in just ONE box?
The value for being an independent group is that it is not "guilty" by association. If CDs are in with LGBTG, ordinary folks might think we are all gay or bi or on the way to womanhood. I for one don't want any of those associations, because I am none any of those things.
There are a number of musicians here and I'd bet they want to be known by what instrument they play rather than just be a "musician". I'm a woodwind player generally, a sax player specifically, and alto sax is my main horn. It is different from being a tenor player--think Stan Getz vs Charlie Parker.
there is NO value to society in being a crossdresser--it is something quite personal, whereas being gay or lesbian has more of a biological nature and there fore can be more easily explained. They very likely don't see us as having the biological aspects and therefore what we do is entirely personal ( that probably best applies to fetish dressers and some others), and out of the realm of LBGTG. Do you see any democrats in the TEA Party?
I do think that if there are sufficient numbers around the world, that an organization composed entirely of CDs is the best way to progress to public acceptance, if that is really what people want. A sponsor, a magazine, a radio program, a tv series that functions the same way Big Bang Theory functions for science nerds. Tagging along on someone's coat tails will only get us a face full of dust and heel marks on our foreheads.

[RebeccaLynne]

In a roundabout way, you two have already agreed with each other, just pointing that out. Rebecca agreed with my statement agreeing with Melissa's.... It's starting to take on a Pythonesque tone, so let's just go all the way and be Python girls with terrible falsettoes.

Leona, thanks for your mediation... Melissa isn't here to make friends or converts, nor am I... I really ask only that all of us remain open-minded and consider the opinions of others.

Admittedly, you lost me at "Pythonesque"; I don't know the reference, as I'm not a scholar in regards to literature... is it Shakespearian, perhaps?

As far as being "Python girls"... I'm sure I can strangle my prey, if provoked... and swallow them whole!

Falsettoes? I can speak more softly, but certainly couldn't approximate a semblance of a passable female voice, even moderately terrible... a genetic male deficiency, I suppose...

[busker]

that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men,

Of course there is another to view this in that it is a JOB (entertainment is immaterial) that a gay man can have without being ostracized. He is accepted by fellow gay men, is perhaps thought "harmless" because he is an "entertainer" and it works for that person because he wears the fashions that he would like to wear ordinarily but can't. hollywood is filled with gay actors, some of whom are out but one suspects that they got the job perhaps in part BECAUSE they were gay--misery loves company right. So, a director is gay, wants companionship and finds out that Tab Hunter is just his sort of "entertaine-or Rock Hudson, of James Dean or ..... There are a number of professions that seem to attract gays--nursing is one. Is it because they make better nurses or more easily fit in with the women , though that seems contradictory because we know that gay men like MEN, not women.