Do you support Transgender rights?

[ReineD]

Aye, aye, aye, this thread is giving me a headache!

People are arguing because the message sent in many of the posts is not the same as the message received by some of the readers! It's as if people are speaking in different languages. So how are people supposed to communicate effectively when this happens?

Here's a little something on the theory of communication and the types of very common noise that can cause the message sent to morph by the time it is received by someone else:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_communication

Back to the topic:

In one of the tangents here, there's a dispute over the word "transgender". It's such an ambiguous word … a lot of people take it to mean an umbrella term for anyone who is not cis-gender. The media describes transsexuals as transgenders, and so a lot of people take it the two are the same. Some crossdressers refer to themselves as TGs, as to some transsexuals! Ouch!

And then there's the difference between the CDs who dress for recreational purposes vs. those who have an internal need to express femininity. I do understand why the recreational CDs wouldn't need any of the rights expressed in the OP. They aren't interested in presenting as women or in a feminine manner in public! Still, surely these CDs would not deny these rights to others? They might still speak up when they witness any bias emanating from others?

And finally, there's the idea that if every CDer (gender variant, bigender, genderqueer, etc) were to be out and proud, then there would be enough of them out in the public to get the rest of society used to the idea. The problem with this theory is a question of numbers. Even if all the CDers who dress out of a need to express inner femininity were out, there still would not be enough to make any difference! We're talking about maybe 1%-3% of the population? Maybe less, keeping in mind that these are NOT the CDers who dress for recreational purposes which, in my opinion, form the majority of CDers … even if they are not members here (have a quick look at all the CD recreational sites out there). Also, I think it's a mistake to believe that the inner-femininity CDers should risk everything to be out and proud. First, the world is not ready to even come close to comprehending this aspect of non-binary gender and secondly, they don't feel the need to live full time as women. If they did then I'm sure they would, just like any TS. Besides - can't someone be supportive of TG rights without jeopardizing their jobs and families if they do not want to be full time?

Back to the OP … do I support TG rights? Yes I do ... for the transsexuals and the gender variants who do wish to be out. But I also respect those who, for a multitude of valid reasons, wish to remain under the radar. But this doesn't preclude them from being supportive in ways they can be, like signing petitions or "liking" supportive TG messages on facebook.

[Valerie]

Of course I support TG rights and have expressed this very publicly more than once, but I am wary of then moving on to affirm that only those people who do have the right to dress... People have enough repressions, restrictions, and fears as it is, to add a new one... All are welcome!

[sometimes_miss]

Well, Rogina, of course I support transgender rights. But do I do it the same way that you do? We don't know. You're very vague about what you want to know. So, give us a numbered list of the ways you consider acceptable ways of supporting transgender rights and then we can each tell you, in detail, whether we do that particular activity or not. Because without being specific, all I can guess is: That you want to know how many of us are 'out', how many of us actively petition the public and public officials for active laws to guarantee equal treatment for all transgendered folks no matter how bizarre our public behavior may be, how many of us march in parades to support other groups of tg people, do we write a letter a day to an elected official to get insurance to cover srs, do we go door to door to get petitions signed for that, well the list can go on and on. So, Rogina, exactly what is it that you want to know that we do?

[PaulaQ]

Even if all the CDers who dress out of a need to express inner femininity were out, there still would not be enough to make any difference! We're talking about maybe 1%-3% of the population?

Never mind. The 0.3% of us who are TS got this.
edit: Also, I thought the various folks along the spectrum might share common ground, but I'm informed that we do not, so I stand corrected.

[Lucy_Bella]

My explanation .

There has been a ongoing movement these past several years started by doctors in the field of this very subject for T.G. rights.. Although not accepted by the Transgender Community the DMS-5 has ..

If you have been doing any research online lately you will start seeing urls/sites with this as a header TV/TG more often as the professional side has deemed it ..

Why?

Because the DMS has found a need for certain rights on some patients that have GID to live a safer and less stressful life ( yes Dr's are fighting for rights for these patents ) But in order to justify the needs for these patents those with TV could not be included for various and sometimes obvious reasons..

Give me sometime I will provide the links and data to back this statement ..The last I heard was our own community was derailing this because of the separation of the TG umbrella..

Feel free to comment or do research on your own ...

I wasn't being mean in anyway by suggesting this separation because I understand there are people who do need these rights and if a simple term used as a umbrella is the only thing in the way of these rights I am all for removing it..

Here is one..http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/0...-civil-rights/

[Rogina B]

If they did then I'm sure they would, just like any TS. Besides - can't someone be supportive of TG rights without jeopardizing their jobs and families if they do not want to be full time?

Back to the OP … do I support TG rights? Yes I do ... for the transsexuals and the gender variants who do wish to be out. But I also respect those who, for a multitude of valid reasons, wish to remain under the radar. But this doesn't preclude them from being supportive in ways they can be, like signing petitions or "liking" supportive TG messages on facebook.

Lexi,THAT is about all I was looking for! But in addition,I think that people should be supportive of local and national watchdog and advocate groups,no matter where they themselves THINK they stand on the "T spectrum"..More than one "lifelong closeted" member here now wants to pee at the coffee shop!

[GaleWarning]

Labels cause so much grief!
Let's just recognize each other as human beings, shall we?
Human rights, not any other rights for special interest groups.

[Zylia]

Lucy, while I agree that maybe not every guy in a dress belongs under the same transgender umbrella as those with an 'actual' gender identity disorder, it's kind of hard to make that distinction, especially when it comes to rights and politics. In many cases, it's all or nothing without resorting to gesture politics. When talking about transgender restroom politics, some people may not like to have these 'sexual deviant' fetishistic cross-dressers in our ladies' restrooms, but the only way you can prevent that is to lay the burden of proof upon the transgender individuals.

Still, people talk about cross-dressers unwilling to support the 'transgender cause' that mainly benefits transsexual individuals on a day to day basis (correct me if i'm wrong), but how much support do those who identify as TS actually want from cross-dressers in the first place? With a few notable exceptions, people in the transsexual section here and elsewhere aren't too positive about cross-dressers in general, so maybe we should talk about mutual respect and mutual support first before we start talking about support in general. I guess if I have to support transgender rights, I should do it as a human being and better hide my cross-dressing identity.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . what tangential responses for such a simple question on supporting rights. This is why I don't like labels it gets too militant sometimes. Can't we all just agree that rights (human rights) regardless of race, gender, gender expression or any other category you may think of, are something that should be safeguarded. The minute you try to pigeon hole a category, you loose sight of the raison d'etre, treating people with respect irrespective of differences.

Hugs

Isha

[Zylia]

You're 100% correct Isha. What I try to convey is that if I have to support transgender rights because we're somehow in this together as the 'transgender community', I don't want to have the feeling I'm going to be thrown under the bus whenever that's more convenient. The esoteric "you wouldn't know"and "trannier than thou" attitudes make specifically supporting transgenderism a tough sell.

[natcrys]

One thing I've learned from this thread is that we all need to work on our communication! :p

But I'm still of the opinion... if you're not doing anything to at least make a difference .. I don't want to hear those complaints.

I'm not fully out yet... but all of my friends know.. and they've told me that because of me, they have a better understanding of (my way of) crossdressing and what it means in my life. That has made them very supportive and they've also told me that during their lunch breaks and other conversations.. they correct their e.g. co-workers if they have any misconceptions of crossdressers.

And like it is said in the ancient writings: "knowing is half the battle!" :D

[Stephanie Julianna]

How could I not?

[JenniferYager]

I like how Isha said it...she took what I was thinking and put it in three sentences!

[PaulaQ]

What I try to convey is that if I have to support transgender rights because we're somehow in this together as the 'transgender community', I don't want to have the feeling I'm going to be thrown under the bus whenever that's more convenient. The esoteric "you wouldn't know"and "trannier than thou" attitudes make specifically supporting transgenderism a tough sell.

I hope that any of my remarks either in this thread or prior threads have never conveyed a "trannier than thou" attitude. I see CDs and other members of the spectrum as having a lot of issues in common with my own struggles as a transsexual.

I read the threads here expressing the awful fears of life in the closet as a CD. I know those feelings well because I shared them too. I read stories of those with spouses who struggle or simply cannot accept them, and I know their pain, for I've dealt with this with my own wife. I understand the feelings of shame, courtesy of a world that hates us - I've had those feelings.

I know not every CD wants to be out in public, but my God, even if this is something you choose to do only in private, wouldn't it be great if you didn't have to fear discovery?

I have nothing but respect and love for the members of this forum who identify as CD, or any other label. If I can help you in any way while dealing with my own struggles, please know that I will.

To me, support implies action, even if it is quiet behind the scenes action. Not everyone needs to be a hero, but almost everyone can do something.

By the way - one of the simplest things you can do to support transgender rights is to support and love yourselves. I see so many here post about feeling shame, or guilt, or hiding to put their families first. There is a lot of self hatred implicit in so many posts on this forum. Love yourselves ladies, you are all beautiful, worthwhile, and not one iota of your CDing is your fault.

You have a right to exist, despite what your wife, neighbors, or boss might think.

[Tina_gm]

I want to apologize if I came off harsh sounding and if I insulted anyone. My reaction when I 1st started reading was a call to arms kinda thing. That we should be out in the public and making a visible and vocal difference. That is great for those who feel the need, for those who need to express themselves on a full time basis, for those who are aligning themselves in the proper gender they feel internally all the time. For me though, I have many other issues at stake, a life I want to live, and its responsibilities that come with it. For me to be out and proud, would alter that life dramatically. Yes, I sacrifice some of my internal femininity for the big picture of my life that I have. It is my decision to not alter it, or end what I have. For some, that may not be a decision they can make, for others, they feel it worth altering their lives or creating a life that puts their gender variance 1st. It is a decision that everyone needs to make, what do they prioritize. My 1st priority is not my gender variance. I will always be supportive of any TG rights, and never throw anyone under a bus. I just have decided to keep my gender variance and my expression private.

[Wanna be Heather]

Definitly support it. Why not and why judge. As a CD, i dearm of becoming TG. It is who we are

[5150 Girl]

Do you mean fiscally? Right now, I can't even support myself! However, I feel every time I step outside dressed, I try to be friendly, well/appropriately dressed, and willing to properly educate should the opportunity arise. So if by trying to present myself as a "brand ambassador" if you will,,,, one calls that support, then yes, I support the cause all the time.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Wow, what a thread! To answer the original question, in general, yes. Not with some of the laws that have been passed, though.I have a real hard time understanding the new CA law allowing transgender students to play sports for the gender they express. Not because I don't think true transgender (e.g., those who truly identify as the opposite gender) shouldn't be allowed to play as the gender they identify with), but because the definition is too open ended and I frankly worry that it will hurt young girls ability to play. Before you think it won't happen, it already has in a Southern CA high school, and I'm sorry but as an avid Title IX supporter I don't think this is right. If students are truly in the process of transforming, I can support it. But until then I do see inherent physical advantages that shouldn't exist. But, whether a transgender kid should be allowed to dress as they wish at a school? Sure I support that.
We've been through the TG definition so many times that I don't care to go through it again. We're never going to agree on one definition because we all see the issue from our own eyes and its difficult understanding why those on the other side disagree so vehemently.

[chelyann]

how simple is to say yes or no !!!!! for me --- YES [ SEE ]

[julia marie]

I haven't read every line of every post in this thread, so I'm sorry if someone else already took this position. I balk at questions like this because it assumes that everything proposed under the banner (in this case transgender rights, in other cases tax cuts, gun control, laws about undocumented aliens, the Democratic or Republic party platform, etc.) is good. These things get too broad, and people really need to look at the individual proposals that might be categorized under one of these banners. Take each proposal on its own merits. I'm sure I would support (at least by supporting certain candidates) most of the proposed laws that would fall under "transgender rights", but not blindly. Someone mentioned the California law about boys playing on girls' sports teams. That would be fine for the boys who are dealing with gender issues, but I can't support the idea of just any boy getting cut by the boy's soccer team then going to play for the girls' team just because he might be bigger and faster than the girls. Or, a boy who gets cut/benched in football going to play girls' field hockey. Similarly, I support many gay rights proposals, but those groups that advocate man-boy sexual activity? Nope, and I know those groups don't speak for the gay community at large.

[mechamoose]

Ok.. how about Human Rights? Last time I checked most of us are human

- MM

[devida]

Or perhaps to make it even more specific than MM, should transgender people have the same rights as a white heterosexual adult male? So white heterosexual males do not have laws protecting them against discrimination which I know is a thorn in the side of the men's rights movement, but, um, white heterosexual males don't actually need anti discimination protections because they write the laws and, generally, have the power to oppress, should they choose to use it. The idea that a transgender person has this power is ludicrous. So, should transgender people have provisions in the law that safeguards them against discrimination? In, for example, the way that women, people of color, people with disabilities and members of religious minorities have these rights? I am not asking those of you who have already agreed with transgender people having these rights. I am asking the members of this board who think it is just a step too far to give cross dressers and other people generally considered to be under the transgender umbrella the rights that all these other groups have been given. And if you really believe that these rights should not be extended to cross dressers and other people generally thought to be transgender, can you please explain to me why you would want to carve out an exception for us?

[mechamoose]

Davidia darling..

I'm a white (pansexual) male. I know that the WHM is the standard.

I think that we should all have that level of acceptance. People are people. It shouldn't fracking matter if I'm wearing heels or lumberjack boots.

I don't want an exception. I want a level playing field.

<3

- MM

[Eryn]

...I have a real hard time understanding the new CA law allowing transgender students to play sports for the gender they express. Not because I don't think true transgender (e.g., those who truly identify as the opposite gender) shouldn't be allowed to play as the gender they identify with), but because the definition is too open ended and I frankly worry that it will hurt young girls ability to play....

What about a short boy's desire to play basketball? He has just as much right to participate in an athletic program as any student yet he would be excluded from the boys' basketball team because his genetics rendered him short and excluded from the girls' team because his genetics include a Y chromosome. Girls, OTOH, have the right to participate in boys' athletic teams. This is an obvious inequity.

With barriers having been knocked down for females perhaps it is time to knock them down for males as well. We should end gender segregation of athletic teams and encourage everyone to participate by instituting non-gendered teams for various physical ability levels.

[Jacqueline Winona]

What about a short boy's desire to play basketball? He has just as much right to participate in an athletic program as any student yet he would be excluded from the boys' basketball team because his genetics rendered him short and excluded from the girls' team because his genetics include a Y chromosome. Girls, OTOH, have the right to participate in boys' athletic teams. This is an obvious inequity.

With barriers having been knocked down for females perhaps it is time to knock them down for males as well. We should end gender segregation of athletic teams and encourage everyone to participate by instituting non-gendered teams for various physical ability levels.

Eryn, VERY few girls play on boys teams after the age of 9. At 13 and over, its really rare. And height has never excluded anybody from any sports team. Isaiah Thomas might be 5'7", and he starts in the NBA. Dustin Pedroia is an MVP candidate in baseball every year, and he is the same height. Kim Mulkey started for a national champion basketball team at 5'2", etc. I was a short kid and could play any sport I wanted. Your analogy is just not the same thing. Boys do have more muscle mass, are generally stronger and faster, and allowing them to compete on a girls team is taking a sport away from a girl. Allowing laws like this hurt TG rights in my opinion, as they alienate people (mostly women) who see their daughters getting less opportunity to compete. It's wrong in my book, unless the TG girl is truly transitioning and is taking medications that will affect strength.