Who is leaving who?

[ReineD]

I am enough of a romantic to believe that if there is real love on both sides and the desire is there, then a marriage will not fail, but everyone's situation is different. I would be the last to judge anyone.

I agree with you, if we're talking about gender-nonconformity (CDing). This does not involve a wife altering her sexual preference to follow her husband's cross-sex transition.

But, even in the best marriages, a GG may not be able to become a lesbian wife to a transitioning transwoman ... which compares to a husband who would not be able to become a gay man if his wife were a transitioning FtM. It's not just a matter of having to alter one's sexual preference (which in my view is hard-wired), it is also living with the stigma (still) of being in a same-sex relationship which would be an even greater challenge if the wife is hetero.

[samantha rogers]

Hi Reine,
Well we seem to have drifted a little off from where I meant to start, but what the heck...
The only place I guess I disagree with you (and its ok to disagree), is that I am not certain about the hard wired aspect of sexual preference. While I would certainly agree that there are many individuals who are most definitely so, and firmly in the straight or gay camp, I tend to believe, subjectively I admit, that many and possibly most are only established in one camp or the other through social conditioning, and that, just as I see gender identity as far from a binary construct, that the same is true for sexual attraction. Of course this is hypothetical, but I think that were the world free of such unnecessary cultural stereotypes (another discussion?) that people would develop their sexual attraction preference in a much broader and more open minded manner. I believe humans can fall in love with humans...and, hopefully (did I mention I am a romantic?) free from pure physical attraction but rather based on the person inside the body...beyond that, I would hesitate to state anything empirically.
Of course, social conditioning and prejudice does exist. We live in the world as it is and not as we might wish it to be. As such, social prejudice does factor in as does the affect of social conditioning on the human mind in determining what we "should" find attractive. Still, in all marriages, the passage of time changes our physicality but usually not the underlying love. People, once young, svelte and beautiful, become old, wrinkled, fat and incontinent. Yet marriages continue because the love grows beyond the physical. Is an altered physical gender that much different? I know for some the answer is yes but for others the answer is no. In such cases, the love is for the person, not the wrapper. And if that love is strong, I think it can overcome the societal pressures and biases.
I realize that what I believe is not possible for all. I know many marriages are not that strong, nor based in that kind of pure love. But it does not deter me from (yes, romantically) believing that it does exist. In fact, I have seen cases where it does. I bet we all have.
Yes, it is rare, and it represents an ideal that most of us will never know. But knowing it is possible does give one hope, does it not? And hope is more important than food or even air. Without hope, we die.
Love...real love...is more than a feeling. It is an action. Wanting the best for the person we love is as much a part as the feeling itself, even when it is difficult or even when it is not in our own best interest!
So, anyway....yeah..I am a romantic and an idealist. Forgive me. I really would not want it any other way.

[Jolene]

I have never married and probably never will. Not because I would never want to, but at this time in my life and looking around me, relationships and marrage both seem to be something that work well for some and not so well for others.

It would be hard to live with someone and CD, unless they were very understanding. I do feel for someone who is in that position. Just thinking about myself, if I did meet a lady and it did get serious, guess I would have to lay it all out and go from there, but as things are now here, do not ever expect to. Just my family finding out would be bad enough.

[PaulaQ]

This does not involve a wife altering her sexual preference to follow her husband's cross-sex transition.

But, even in the best marriages, a GG may not be able to become a lesbian wife to a transitioning transwoman ... which compares to a husband who would not be able to become a gay man if his wife were a transitioning FtM.

Nope - trans women are an exception. It's our fault we transition anyway - just ask anybody.

FWIW, I know more trans men who've stayed in happy marriages with their ostensibly straight husbands than trans women who've managed to keep their wives. Then again, of the trans men I know who have relationships on the rocks because of transition - those relationships are also with women. So maybe genetic women just don't like "the trans"? (A rhetorical question - my sample size is personal and rather small.)

Anyway, I think the operative sentiment is that it's our fault. What woman would want to be with such a one as us?
I'm sure very few women would have similar issues with having a spouse who's "just a CD." Nah, that never happens, pardon my intrusion, OP.

[ReineD]

I tend to believe, subjectively I admit, that many and possibly most are only established in one camp or the other through social conditioning, and that, just as I see gender identity as far from a binary construct, that the same is true for sexual attraction. Of course this is hypothetical, but I think that were the world free of such unnecessary cultural stereotypes (another discussion?) that people would develop their sexual attraction preference in a much broader and more open minded manner.

While this may be true, I agree it is an untested hypothesis. The fact remains that in the world we live in now, people do not easily alter their sexual orientation, especially if they have husbands past their prime who are late onset transitioners.

If I were shipwrecked on an island with only other women and I were there for years, I could see myself making do with what was available ... after some years perhaps. But, this is not the situation of a wife whose husband transitions, and I don't think that love is enough to make it work for the majority of wives ... although we do have our very own gems in this forum who have stayed with their husbands post-op.

The CDing, however, is another matter IMO. I do think that it can work if the marriage is good and if each partner prioritizes the other.

<Edit> - I do know another couple who have stayed together. But, I'm pretty sure they do not have sex together and they've given each other permission to have lovers. I believe they are both attracted to men now. Their relationship changed.

[PaulaQ]

But, this is not the situation of a wife whose husband transitions, and I don't think that love is enough to make it work for the majority of wives

Yeah, on this we agree, Reine.

"the trans," particularly MtF seems to kill about 90% of marriages. I'm still really bitter about this. I have my doubts that I'll ever trust another cisgender woman enough to be in a relationship with her. Not that I think that's especially likely to happen for me ever, anyway. I don't really believe in life long relationships anymore.

I've found in my life that when you set your expectations to nothing - you are rarely disappointed. Indeed - expecting disappointment is the only thing that makes much sense to me anymore. It almost always delivers. She may be a real bitch, Disappointment, but she comes through time and time again.

[ClaraKay]

I've come to understand that sexual orientation is 'hardwired', but I agree with Samantha that each of us falls somewhere on a scale from straight to gay with most of us clustered near the straight end of the spectrum. It can be very difficult for a hetero wife to overcome her sexual preference, but certainly not impossible. I speak from my own experience in my marriage.

Few of us are 100% straight, and to the extent that we have a spouse who is closer to mid-spectrum, the easier it will be to obtain some amount of acceptance of one's CD/TG nature, especially if the relationship is based on love for each other in other important respects, or simply mutual dependency. I do think that conditioning plays a huge part in cementing one's inborn sexual preference, but that an established mindset can be changed in time with honest effort on both sides within certain (probably unexplored) limits. The motivation to make that happen has to come from deep in the hearts of the affected, and, here, we look to the strength of the underlying relationship. If it exists, accommodation is possible, if not, well.....

[Tina_gm]

I am probably gonna set off a fecal storm with this but..... Who ever has an expectation of a gay person that they should be able to adapt to being straight? I mean, once they are out and they are to anyone's knowledge gay, that's it, they are gay and totally 100% gay and no one ever bothers to think they should accept anything but who they are.

So yet here we are as CDers, expecting that our wives and gf's or any women which we fancy at, should be able to "alter" themselves for us.... and of course we are CDers and there is no going back from that, we are who we are, we cannot change that.... but hey, THEY have to change for us, women have to alter their sexuality to fit our needs right, no one else, not actual gay people, not CDers, just women whom we are with or fancy to be with, right.....

[samantha rogers]

Thats a very good point, GM. I don't disagree at all. I might throw in some discussion points to consider but it seems to be more a topic for another thread as this one...lol...has veered way off from the original question. Tee hee.

[ClaraKay]

Even though I crossdress and have a female side to my personality, my wife still sees me as a man for all intents and purposes. I haven't asked her to become a lesbian in order for our marriage to continue on an intimate basis. Similarly, I don't lose my attraction to her when she dresses in drab clothing, work boots, or gets a short haircut on occasion. I still see her as a woman. The repulsion that some spouses feel toward their crossdressing husbands is more likely due to social conditioning that views such behavior in a man as simply wrong, not that it's forcing her to change her sexual orientation. I'm not including the transsexual in this relationship dynamic, of course.

If a spouse cannot accept a man who has a need to dress up once in awhile, but otherwise is, in every way that matters, still a man, I think the fault is with the intolerant spouse, not the crossdresser. That demonstrated lack of sensitivity, understanding, and acceptance is probably a symptom of much more serious problems in the relationship which will likely result in an eventual break up at one level or another.

[PaulaQ]

Who ever has an expectation of a gay person that they should be able to adapt to being straight? I mean, once they are out and they are to anyone's knowledge gay, that's it, they are gay and totally 100% gay and no one ever bothers to think they should accept anything but who they are.

Happens fairly often with FTM TS guys. Their female SO's often stay partnered with them - even though they are now straight. It's an adjustment for them. For that matter, I know guys who're married to FTM's who stayed with their spouse, and decided they were OK with appearing as gay. For whatever reason, straight girls seem to have the worst time dealing with gender issues in their SO, as best I can tell.

[Suzanne F]

Who says they expect their spouse to find them attractive and suitable as a woman? I only hope that could happen. I will fully understand if my wife can't adjust to me being female. However I hope it might work out in some way. I very rarely get a sense anyone is demanding their spouse stay and somehow adjust.
Suzanne