Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

[DonnaT]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page. My older brother is understanding to the plight of our trans youth and young adult trans men, but not for Jenner, and refuses to call her Caitlyn.

I asked him, if he was able to talk to John Wayne, would he call him Marion. No response.

Now he's cited the a--hole Dr. Paul McHugh and his 2004 anti-trans article “Surgical Sex”. He said he wanted to illustrate a different point of view.

So, I had to respond with a long post to explain why McHugh's point of view is erroneous.

I followed up with my being an electrical engineer and was familiar with Lynn Conway, etc. etc. hoping to throw him off the scent. My mom is the only one in that part of the family that knows.

As the conversation continues, what I've gathered is that his issue is mainly with Jenner, citing Jenner's move through life living a full as a male (marriage, fatherhood,athletics).

I pointed out that just because Jenner took a different path, that does not make it any less real than Lynn's or thousands of others. Many try to "man-up", like former Navy SEAL Kristin Beck. This is likely one reason Jenner did so well at the Olympics, trying to man-up.

Many eventually realize that transition is the right path. He believes that children who have this dysphoria should be nurtured and be permitted the identity to which they relate. So I pointed out that Jenner was once a child, and as a child had this dysphoria. It doesn't go away.

Additionally, I pointed out that at least Jenner's children are supportive, apparently, since they have yet to voice any displeasure at Caitlyn's transition.

My wife didn't want me to continue further with the discussion.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Bruce Jenner's Olympic achievements mean a lot to a lot of different people. Bruce stood out as a male icon to many from that generation and that is how many people remember Caitlyn. Cher has a difficult time coming to terms with Chaz who was once her daughter Chastity. When such a drastic change occurs in some one who is special to you it is hard for them to give up the person they knew. It might not be a dislike of Caitlyn just a loss of Bruce.

[PaulaQ]

One of the reasons I think some men react so badly to Caitlyn is because of Bruce's athletic achievements. Human beings are hierarchical - we want to know our place in the pecking order, for the most part. Men who have athletic prowess are awarded very high status in the eyes of others. I observed this with my roommate, who is a former pro athlete. She had a bunch of friends who were her friends because she was a kickass athlete at one time.

Once she came out to them, suddenly they had a problem. The person who they had, all this time, brown-nosed because of their athletic prowess was now telling them "I'm a woman." This is intolerable to the male ego. Even relatively crap former high-school athletes will make fun of my roommate if she just mentions she used to play sports. They just assume, as men, they were superior to her in whatever trifling little endeavor she might have done. In point of fact, unless you are a particularly elite athlete, she was better at sports than you. Doesn't matter what you did, probably. She was exceptionally gifted. This has brought down a bunch of hate on her from some former friends during her transition.

In essence, they got beaten by a girl, and it bothers them. They don't know where they fit in the hierarchy anymore! Are they really men enough? It's one thing if a bigger man bests them - but a woman!?!? Inconceivable!

So look, Caitlyn was arguably the best athlete on planet earth at one time. Didn't matter who you were - she was a better athlete than you.

And we now know, she's a woman.

That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.

[Persephone]

Thank you for sticking up for Caitlyn in a family discussion. It is interesting to see how otherwise reasonable people balk at accepting her. Even here there are some who see her as some sort of "special case," not quite one of us. Perhaps because our ages are similar I particularly identify with her experiences and the personal pain she has gone through.

You seem to have done a great job so far in handling the conversation but your older brother sounds unwilling to listen to your point of view on this. Apparently he isn't going to change. Although not suggesting that your brother is a pig, you might have reached the point where "You can't teach a pig to sing... It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kimdl93]

Why bother. Sounds like your brother is drinking the intolerance kool aid. I doubt Caitlyn cares what he thinks. I certainly don't

[LeaP]

The pattern of people claiming to understand or accept young transitioners but not older transitioners is not unique to men, nor is it limited to questions of ego. I'm sure egos play for some. Others, including some younger transitioners, disbelieve on the basis of what they see as intensity differences. Others will stick on moral or ethical points like responsibilities to spouse, family, and other commitments that they see as different for older people. Still others can't see past what they thought they knew in the person. Some view gender issues as a phenomenon that emerges naturally in younger people but only as a disorder or breakdown in older people. Cultural views of men play differently at different ages as well. Older men – unless they are particularly wealthy, important, or well-connected – are often viewed as used up and disposable at some level. Thus an older man transitioning might be viewed as a ridiculous figure while a younger person transitioning may be viewed sympathetically. Issues of age and beauty in our culture play, too. That is, because MtF transition is assumed to be about presentation, sex, and choice - cross sex gender identity not being understood by most – transitioning while older can be viewed as rather pointless. You even see variations of this sentiment in the cross-dresser community when people say things like "I might have thought about transitioning when I was younger, but I'm too old and too ugly now".

You hit a certain age when anything remotely out of the ordinary you might do is subject to questioning. I'm there now and I'm getting some of those same objections.

You don't need to get into a lot of agonizing personal detail with people. They may or may not accept the real answer, but it is this: Gender issues manifest themselves in a variety of well-known patterns. Those are driven by both individual characteristics as well as environment. Despite the early transitions of a few, people in my age range generally repressed or suppressed their gender issues. We held them back until we no longer could. And despite the difficulties, the criticism, lack of acceptance, and all the rest that can go with late transition, we are not the tragedies. Those are the people who live out the remainder of their lives as something they never were, far below their potential, in pain, and in the dark. And, of course, the other tragedy is the attitude that maintains that it is better that way.

Caitlyn knocked it out of the park, addressing along the way just about every point mentioned above.

[pamela7]

That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.

a-ha-ha-hahahaha... i recently started playing squash again, lost every match for a while, including against a lady player. Thing is, in every sport i've observed/played, the women are technically better and team better too - less ego indeed!!!

[Bria]

I think Paula's observations make a lot of sense. I have never been one to be greatly impressed be professional sports figures. Many of them have used hormones to get where they are. How much of a parallel is that to those that use other hormones to get to where they need to be. Hmmmm, who is real! Maybe I don't need to know that, each person can choose their own path.

Hugs, Bria

[STACY B]

Not much being said on my Face book so far but a few things here and there, But I almost got my fill of the little bit that has rolled by, Yall know me it ain't gonna take much to pop off on some folks.

Whats so Dam Sad is if they only knew how wrong an Stupid they sound about this stuff, There still talking about Gay stuff an the normal Dummy Crap, Most of us on here are so Dam Far past that STUPID TALK it just makes me sick to hear it an how they embarrass themselves REALLY.
But I am being a Good Girl an holding my Lips so far. Just depends on how long this trend lasts , We shall see?

[PaulaQ]

The pattern of people claiming to understand or accept young transitioners but not older transitioners is not unique to men, nor is it limited to questions of ego.

Agreed. I was specifically talking about sports figures. I observed the stuff I was talking about with my roommate. I mean I got rejected by quite a lot of people when I transitioned, but none of those were as brutal as some of the stuff my roommate got from her former "friends."

What really frustrates me are people who question older transitioners - but then also question whether or not kids can know they need to transition. I feel like asking these people "what's the magic correct age to figure this out then?" But of course from their perspective, no age is ever right.

[Gillian Gigs]

I think that PaulQ hit the nail square on the head. There are a lot of testostrone laden guys right now wondering how they are going to prove who they are, as sports now has a wrinkle in it.

[flatlander_48]

I pointed out that just because Jenner took a different path, that does not make it any less real than Lynn's or thousands of others. Many try to "man-up", like former Navy SEAL Kristin Beck. This is likely one reason Jenner did so well at the Olympics, trying to man-up.

I think what's happened is an overcompensation. There is a parallel here in men screwing every female that comes within arms length as they are (consciously or unconsciously) trying to convince themselves that they are heterosexual.

[sometimes_miss]

So look, Caitlyn was arguably the best athlete on planet earth at one time. Didn't matter who you were - she was a better athlete than you. And we now know, she's a woman.

And I think it may stick in their craw a bit, that a 'sissy' was a better man they they are or ever could be, and they have no way to dispute it.
Then you have to add this, which may frighten a lot of men: If the world's greatest male athlete could turn into a sissy, oh my god, I'm a really great male athlete (so many men really believe this crapola it's amazing) maybe it could happen to me! So I'd better behave like the most anti gay anti trans MAN that I could imagine, so no one would ever think that maybe I might become a sissy too.

[MissTee]

For certain, the Bruce-to-Caitlyn story has amped up the quantity of conversations arounds gender identity and all it's many variations. Since the story broke I have been party to no less than several dozen group discussions sparked by the mention of the Vanity article. To me it's interesting to listen to all the table top philosophers. It's a good study in understanding how the world around us is prepared (or not) to digest all the counter birth gender dimensions -- including this group.

That said, I listen but I'm really not interested in commenting. When prodded to weigh in, I've told several groups I felt Caitlyn simply said, "this is who I am." She did not say, "This is who I am. Is that OK with you?"

It has worked every time in deflecting the group.

[Eryn]

I wonder if I'm outing myself on my 'male' FB page. My older brother is understanding to the plight of our trans youth and young adult trans men, but not for Jenner, and refuses to call her Caitlyn.

One can express support for another person, just as many people are currently expressing support for Kaitlyn, without outing oneself.

Your brother sounds like someone who enjoys being contrary. He knows that refusing to use the correct name annoys you for some reason so he uses that knowledge to needle you.

Now that you have both expressed your views, why continue to argue the issue? Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. Move on to other issues.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I've always thought that spending many years of one's life perfecting the art of projecting a small round object through the air is a dubious use of one's time, or what ever the sport might be, except that under certain circumstances it can result in a huge income. Certainly no dumber than spending your life behind a desk in order to maintain a country club membership.

But coming out as transsexual, to an audience of hundreds of millions - that takes guts. In terms of social olympics, that's a big shiny gold. Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

[Dana44]

I agree with PaulaQ. The girls that I do cross-fit with are good at athletics. It is all I can do to keep up with them. Of course they are 25 years younger. Yet they are strong. Every once in a while another male tries it. One told me it was the hardest workout he ever did. He has never been back. I always thought men would like competition. But they do not like being outclassed by a woman. At my age, I just run with babes and try to keep up.

[DonnaT]

Now that you have both expressed your views, why continue to argue the issue? Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. Move on to other issues.

Thanks. Already have

[Vivian Best]

I've read that many TSs really get into macho situations and jobs and really excel trying to prove to themselves they are really males. Many, such as myself thought marriage would cure them. I've spent a lifetime looking for something that doesn't exist!

[DorothyElizabeth]

"I've always thought that spending many years of one's life perfecting the art of projecting a small round object through the air is a dubious use of one's time, ..."

I beg to differ. When I was in the ninth grade, I tried working as a golf caddy. I lasted one week, because the members treated the caddies like the scum of the earth. I thought to myself, "This is an arrogant, arrogant game. I am never going to take it up." Fast forward to about 2004. My wife's parents telephoned us and said that if we wanted to, they would pay for us to come spend Memorial Day weekend with them at Eaglesmere, PA. They would pay for the B&B and for a lesson and a round or two of golf. MY wife was an avid golfer (zero handicap!!), so I said I'd go along. I vowed to myself that I would not be a spoilsport, and that I would endure whatever it took to make her happy. It turned out, I had a wonderful time, and here's the important part: Playing golf takes exactly the same kind of focus and concentration as playing music. After I started messing about with golf, my musical performance went up about three levels.

SO I can honestly say that there is some benefit to chasing a ball around.

As to Ms. Jenner: I wish her well, and I believe she has done the world a great service by openly "coming out", even if the immediate benefit is only to create more open discussion. I wish, though, that people would stop going on at length about her beauty, and remember her for her athleticism and business acumen. I almost feel as if, because she has decided to present as a woman, people no longer take her seriously as a person, and see her merely as a sex or beauty object.

[Michelle789]

Paula, very well said.

I believe the higher up you were on the male hierarchy the worse your friends reactions will be when you come out to them as transgender.

Transwomen who were kick-ass athletes and very macho as men will be hated by men because the men feel "I was beaten by a girl" and their male egos are deflated. Women won't like them either because they had WAY too much male privilege. Women feel these manly men are threatening their safety and can't be trusted.

I had a very good female friend of mine tell me that it was much easier for her to accept me and to re-gender me because she felt a certain level of comfort that she only ever feels around women. She said that it would have been much harder to accept and re-gender someone who was macho, chauvinistic as a man.

There was a guy in my AA group that only met me once as a man, and he thought I was gay, so he wasn't too shocked when I came out the next time I went there (two weeks later). He said that if some of the macho guys came out it would have been a much bigger shock.

I lost very few friends and the ones that I lost were incredibly insecure as men. They were the macho acting men who didn't accomplish too much in life. Men who were very successful and secure in their masculinity, work solid 12-step programs, or men who have strong feminine qualities, but are still men, I found to be much more accepting towards me.

However, most men don't fall into any of the above categories. So yeah, lots of men's egos have been deflated.

The same thing applies to transmen as well. It doesn't sit well with lots of men that they see this man who was once a woman.

I think most trans discrimination, regardless of whether it comes from the religious fundamentalists, TERFS, men feeling their egos deflated, women feeling threatened by MTFs "invading their spaces", all has the same root. Male privilege. The fact that we value men as greater than women is the root of most trans discrimination - for both MTFs and FTMs. Some of it may be from homosexuality too. But homophobia is rooted in sexism too. If a man is attracted to a man he might feel he is less of a man since men are supposed to be attracted to women.

The other two reasons behind transphobia are fear of the unknown, and fear of change.

[~Joanne~]

Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

Like what? What has she done that 1000's before her haven't done other than steal another 15 minutes of fame? Because every other TS that knew who they were went and fixed everything they felt was wrong to become a woman. All Caitlyn has done is have some plastic surgery and breast implants, she didn't have genital surgery and thats a sign that she is probably unsure of who she is and just may go back to being bruce at some point, not she couldn't after the full surgery.

[CynthiaD]

Caitlyn is my hero. She could have kept the whole thing quiet. Retired from the world in hiding, but she didn't she splashed the whole thing out for everybody to see. She stood up and said "this is who I am, like it or not." Not many people have that kind of courage. As for living most of her life as a man, she paid her dues! She took the cards she was dealt and played them well. She did everything a man is "supposed" to do, and she did them very, very well. But in the end, she was true to herself. Brava!

Perhaps the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've also paid my dues. I was a high school athlete (a poor one). I was a construction worker. I was in the army when the army was all male. I'm a husband and a father and a grandfather. I was and still am a good provider. Now I need to be true to myself, and I figure I've earned the right to do so.

[AllieSF]

So Joanne, according to you all of our TS members here who have not had or do not plan on having genital surgery are probably unsure who they are?? Please explain. My understanding is that TS's fix what they personally determine needs to be fixed to reach a congruent and healthy state of mind. That may or may not include GRS/SRS. I know several TS's who know exactly who they are and how far they want to go with corrective surgeries.

Donna, it sounds like your brother has varying opinions about all this. Maybe getting it partially correct is better than nothing. Good luck.

[~Joanne~]

according to you all of our TS members here who have not had or do not plan on having genital surgery are probably unsure who they are?? Please explain

I don't know if I would have said it like that. Those planning on full transitioning are the girls that do believe they were meant to be born a woman but ended up in the wrong body. They take every measure to make it right, most certainly including genital surgery. If You truly believe that your a woman trapped in a man's body, why would you even consider the notion of keeping male genitals? Would you truly be able to claim that your a woman while doing so? Wouldn't that make you basically an surgery enhanced CD?

Believe me, I am happy for Caitlyn, happy that she can live her life as she wants and that she has brought the transgendered community to the fore front of public awareness but I also see an "out" and that makes me wonder if this whole thing may be a publicity stunt at some point. It just doesn't make sense to claim what she does and not go all the way.

This of coarse in JMO, right or wrong.