How different are we?

[Ms. Donna]

Hi All,

I have a quick little question for the F2M side of the hall: Are you guys that different from us - the M2F contingent?

I suspect that emotionally and intellectually we (both groups) have many of the issues. However, there always seems to be a lot of whinging over on our side of the hall - but over here: peace and quiet. Are you less conflicted? or just less vocal about it all?

Just curious...

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[mistunderstood]

Well for me I am more quite about things. All though I have become more vocal since I have found this web site.

[CaptLex]

Are you less conflicted? or just less vocal about it all? Just curious...

Hey, Donna:

Good question - I've noticed that too. Less conflicted? I doubt it. Less vocal? Could be. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I consider the FtM area to be a safe haven where I can express myself freely and without fear of judgement - for whatever reason. I have noticed that the MtF area seems more emotionally charged, but I couldn't even speculate a reason why. Maybe someone else has a clue.

[Abraxas]

Hmmmm. Interesting... Could be that guys (or those with a more male mentality) tend to keep their emotions in check more, or are less expressive, or what have you. Perhaps you folks take a more emotional approach, whereas we take a more logical one.
I know I myself am very emotional, but at the same time I always think situations through logically and express my opinions in a more logic-driven manner.
So, that could be the difference.

Although it would be an interesting experiment to get a bunch of MTFs and FTMs in a room together while somebody else studies what the differences are in communication, interaction, etc.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I have noticed that the MtF area seems more emotionally charged, but I couldn't even speculate a reason why. Maybe someone else has a clue.

Here's a couple thoughts...

First is the still unequal status of men and women. (As the Bulloughs document in their book, FTM crossdressers have been tacitly accepted by Western society for centuries because it was considered "natural" that they'd aspire to the greater opportunities afforded men.) So a lot of us GMs have issues about why we'd want to assume an "inferior" status.

I'm not sure there's a similar dynamic for FTMs. You guys know better than me.... The closest insight I have is a GW friend who's a bit of trans cheerleader, in part because she feels she's got a masculine side to her -- which to her is good thing without downsides (for example, it helps be more assertive in her business dealings, etc.). It was only when I let her know that I personally dislike the phrase "gender gifted" (another conversation) did she realize that maybe we didn't see it the same way she did.

Second, as Abraxas mentioned, the "male" style of communicating is much more emotionally constricted. This was one the big points of Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man," which if you haven't read I'd really urge you do so because she'd got a lot of insights on this. Nothing really new to those of us who are GMs, but it is interesting hearing it from the other side of the fence as it were.)

So just as us MTFs are in a sense "performing" our idea of how women communicate, I imagine you guys are doing the same about how men communicate.

Transman Raven Kaldera had an asute insight about how MTFs may act out their stereotypes of women until they've had a chance for their femme persona until it gets a chance to rub up against real people and real situations. I wouldn't be surprised if there was similar dynamic with FTMs. So we MTFs may act more "feminine" than the typical woman and FTMs may act more "masculine" than the typical man.

[shounenganai]

I feel that if I am feminine in any way, reactions will be along the lines of, "Ah HA! I knew you weren't for real! I knew it was all a phase!"

I come up against this a lot. I come across as a pretty masculine girl, but in others peoples' words, "a pretty faggy guy". I feel obligated to play up the masculine to buy myself some credibility, I guess.

Marlena's link to Raven Kaldera's writing is right on, I think. The newer MTFs I've known definitely overcompensate when it comes to female stereotypes. I haven't known many FTMs, but I'd guess that's also the case.

I'd like a thread about FTM femininity. If anybody else wants to save me the trouble of feeling like the center of attention by making it themselves, please do. :shifty:

[Ms. Donna]

I know what you mean Marlena, sometimes I feel obligated to act more masculine than I am, just so that people will take me seriously. I feel that if I am feminine in any way, reactions will be along the lines of, "Ah HA! I knew you weren't for real! I knew it was all a phase!"

I suspect that the more confortable you become with yourself, less you'll feel the need to overcompensate (at least a bunch of us across the hall feel that way.) It's like going through the whole social aspect of puberty all over again - learning what works and what doesn't in what situations.

As if the first time wasn't enough of a trauma. :mad:

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Julie Avery]

I've spent some time thinking this over.

Funny thing, if someone was researching masculine and feminine, a very interesting study would be: How mtf CD's are masculine in their approach to femininity, and how FTM's are feminine in their approach to masculinity.

MTF's wanna measure their heels, and if they've got a nice figure they wanna post their measurements, and oh yeah the tucking thing, "I want to wear girl clothes and direct your attention to my whatever while I'm talking about it."

The FTM's seem to have a more sane and measured approach to sexuality, maybe even in some cases are trying to find a way not to be sexual...in the former case, a more feminine approach than the MTF's. The two kinds of crossdressing seem really very different, not comparable, except for the self-doubting or self-accepting aspect that crosses both sides.

It's all enough to make your head spin!

I mentioned this to a wise MTF friend on here and she laughed and said basically, "Yep, there's a kind of macho mtf crossdressing".

Anyhow, that's how it looks to me

You guys be well.

[CaptLex]

Funny thing, if someone was researching masculine and feminine, a very interesting study would be: How mtf CD's are masculine in their approach to femininity, and how FTM's are feminine in their approach to masculinity.

It's all enough to make your head spin!

Wow, you're right about making the head spin. I've read this over a couple of times and it's so deep, yet so simple.

I suspect that the more confortable you become with yourself, less you'll feel the need to overcompensate . . .

Funny you should mention that, Donna. My therapist recently asked me if maybe I was overcompensating (a term I dislike) and I got a bit defensive, as I don't see it, if that's really the case. It's frustrating to me, though, that although I feel I've changed so much internally in the past six months, not one person has really noticed an external change - not even the ones I'm out to. I don't think it's about caring what other people think, but it would be nice to have at least one other person see me as I see myself.

[Ms. Donna]

I don't think it's about caring what other people think, but it would be nice to have at least one other person see me as I see myself.

When the Captain looks in the mirror, who is looking back? Is it the you you've always been? Is it the you that you want to be?

How do you see yourself? And is it realistic to expect that others can see that 'self'?

People will 'gender' us as they see fit, regardless of how we 'gender' ourselves. Sometimes it's a match, sometimes close - most of the time it's so far off the mark it ain't funny.

The best we can hope to do is be comfortable and happy with the way we see ourselves. After that, the rest seems to become somewhat incidental.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[gennee]

There are some differences between us. I think it's the emotional evolution that we go through. As an MTF that has been the biggest change in me. I have always felt that I have more feminine traits than masculine. MTF's can be over the top at times trying to prove that they are feminine. FTM's seem more level headed to me. I believe we are the same as far as self acceptance and self confidence are concerned.

Gennee

[CaptLex]

There are some differences between us. I think it's the emotional evolution that we go through. As an MTF that has been the biggest change in me. I have always felt that I have more feminine traits than masculine. MTF's can be over the top at times trying to prove that they are feminine. FTM's seem more level headed to me. I believe we are the same as far as self acceptance and self confidence are concerned.

Well said, gennee - makes a lot of sense to me.

When the Captain looks in the mirror, who is looking back? Is it the you you've always been? Is it the you that you want to be? How do you see yourself? And is it realistic to expect that others can see that 'self'?

Donna,

When I look in the mirror I see the me that I have seen evolve over the last 6-9 months. It is neither the me that I've been before, neither is it yet the me that I would like to become - somewhere in between. But, apparently, I'm the only one that sees that, which is what frustrates me. You ask if it's realistic for others to see that. Well, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect others to see some change since I've effected a change in wardrobe, physical appearance and manner.

Maybe I'm asking too much, but it seems that short of making a complete and drastic change (via hormones and surgery), nobody will notice the change I want others to see.

[Ms. Donna]

When I look in the mirror I see the me that I have seen evolve over the last 6-9 months. It is neither the me that I've been before, neither is it yet the me that I would like to become - somewhere in between. But, apparently, I'm the only one that sees that, which is what frustrates me.

The others 'see' it - they just don't know what to do wth the information. So, by and large, they disregard it.

You ask if it's realistic for others to see that. Well, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect others to see some change since I've effected a change in wardrobe, physical appearance and manner.

Basically, everyone has a threshold for dealing with (i.e. discounting) non-conforming gender traits. The people with whom you work already 'know' you as a woman. To overcome that will be near impossible without actually comming out and having discussion. With those who don't 'know' you, you stand a better chance.

Maybe I'm asking too much, but it seems that short of making a complete and drastic change (via hormones and surgery), nobody will notice the change I want others to see.

It's not a matter of asking too much. More a matter of recognizing the reality of it all - some will see it, some won't.

Somtimes I read as a woman, sometimes as a man - and I even manage to pull off a bona fide 'what is that' every now and then. For me personally, understanding that has made the need to be read a certain way that much less of an issue.

Of course, your milage will probably vary.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Bridget]

I think it may be that simply the MtF side is more populated, and as you have more people, you have more opinions and things get more heated. And perhaps as it may be more overtly taboo and supressed by society, it's like putting something in a pressure cooker and then letting it explode. So when MtF find a community...it's a riot of activity.

[emma_bb]

ive been on various sites on the net and a fair few ive left because of one thing it ends up feeling like a guys club and yes i shall probably be hung drawn and quarterd for expressing that ..but thats how its felt ,i found that it ends up a very closed circle and its all locked into look how fem i am and very competitive each one trying to out do the other ..its just something ive noticed i dont know enough about mtf groups as i have not indulged so i cant say how those forums work

[Kieron Andrew]

ello emma good to see you over here, great to have your opinions on our side of the fence too!

[emma_bb]

ello emma good to see you over here, great to have your opinions on our side of the fence too!

thats so not true ive never been on your side of the fence id be too scared ud chase me around the garden and do unspeakable things agaisnt my will...sighhhhhhh i best wake up now lol ..god im sorry im awefull but hope it puts a smile on your face :p

as for my opinions about ftm i hardly know the subject but from what ive seen and read u guys seem alot less locked into the look at me im a guy thing alot more subdued and subtle about the whole affair which really i think mtf's could really do with taking a leaf out of ur book i know sometimes what i say can upset ppl i dont mean to i just say it how i see it

[jessica duprea]

one of my problems with being a male is my inability to communicate more fluently, I hate it!

I have in my head this personality that is locked away and because I had to keep her there for fear of being chastised, I am emotionally and mentally stunted, I went threw this life growing up trying to be like my brother and every time I had a feminine thought I would go crazy trying to fight it.

So what I am getting at is it seems the strategy allot of FTM's use to be more male is very much what I did.

Let me know if you had to do any of these:
I read the dictionary's terms for masculine and assertive, and would visualize my brothers demeanor when he dealt with people and I would emulate this.
I studied some books on logic to be more logical and found Spock to be a good roll model for this. imagine.:rolleyes:

I would work out with weights and do off the wall stunts and start arguments with people because it would make me feel more masculine, but it is all temporary and eventually the feminine shit comes gushing in and you lose sight of who you are and you start the cycle all over again.

oh boy I lost my self um where was I???

OK um MTF need are a product of there environment we, they, me, them are so insecure about how we look and it is very hard on a persons brain to be thought of as a freak and if we do not look good we are seen as freaks.
this is very, very hard to live with and we tend to over compensate for this, we try desperately for acceptance and to obtain a level of passing that all GG's take for granted. take the GG that has masculine features and ask her how she feels about her looks, what did she go through in school?
Would she change her face if she could?
what if she sounded like a guy, then what oh god no amount of screaming I am woman would help her situation, and then when they discover she is a biological female then they feel empathy for her, but this is not true of MTF's.

The male race has no such contempt toward Females whether GG or FTM you are and will always be held in a lighter light then your sister and you will pass much more easier than you think. most will make very attractive men and those that are so feminine need not fear in a mans world the more assertive you are the more of a man you are, even more so than those men that are not, even assertive woman are held with respect or called a bitch if not a man but if you are living as a man they wont call you a bitch they'll cal you dude awesome, way to go and all that.

[CaptLex]

So what I am getting at is it seems the strategy allot of FTM's use to be more male is very much what I did.

Let me know if you had to do any of these:
I read the dictionary's terms for masculine and assertive, and would visualize my brothers demeanor when he dealt with people and I would emulate this.
I studied some books on logic to be more logical and found Spock to be a good roll model for this. imagine. :rolleyes:

I would work out with weights and do off the wall stunts and start arguments with people because it would make me feel more masculine, but it is all temporary and eventually the feminine shit comes gushing in and you lose sight of who you are and you start the cycle all over again.

Let's see . . . nope, I never read the dictionary's definitions, and I never had a brother to emulate (and Lord knows I didn't want to copy my father's behavior). Never studied books on it either, but I understand what you mean about Spock. I also find logic to be very important.

Actually, I did have one role model from whom I learned to be more assertive, but it wasn't a man. I used to watch Alexis (the name is no coincidence) Carrington Colby on the old Dynasty television show (yes, I know I'm dating myself) and try to be more like her. People called her "the B word", but to me that just meant that she was doing something right and rocking the men's world. Okay, so I'm not that self-involved, but I do know that I'm much more assertive than I was way back then, and I know that's a good thing.

As far as off-the-wall stunts and arguments, yeah I guess I did some of that, but I don't think it was overcompensation, I think it was a way to release a lot of built-up tension from being expected to be such a "goody good girl" all the time. I had to let go or I'd just lose it.

[Kimberley]

Funny, but contrary to the popular opinion, when I read this forum, I hear the voices of a lot of guys. The difference is that there is some sensitivity and honesty here.

Overcompensating? Maybe we do at times, but for me personally, I just am as I am. Take it or leave it. (How male is that?) If I shed tears over a silly movie so be it. (Angel's death in Rent had me blubbering) I am also emotional but can be very logical. Being logical was training when I was young and entering the very male dominated trades (which I hated then and still do.) As an anecdote, I once had a manager call me in his office and rake me over the coals for making memos too long and "flowery". (His words not mine.)

Anyway, I digress. I think we all tend to do it (overcompensate) in the beginning.

What I see in the mirror is confusion. So Capn, you arent alone. I just try to not dwell on the gender issues. Of course there are times it is impossible but overall, I just let myself be as I am. Maybe it is acceptance with age. I dont know. I do know there is still a lot of turmoil though. But that is another book.

Kimberley.

[Taylor105]

Okay...I come off as an over-talkative pre-teen boy. I guess you could say hyper active kiddo. LOL I don't overdo anything. I'm just myself. I probably come off a little efeminate. And I just had to say something to Emma. You are beautiful!! Taylor