Public Restroom

[Krisi]

Anyone who compares the "rights" of a crossdresser to use a ladies restroom to the struggle of racial minorities for equal opportunity in housing, education, jobs, etc. is seriously insulting the minorities who went through (and in some cases are still going through) that struggle. We are talking about men who dress up as women and go out in public attempting (or not) to pass themselves off as women. We are not women, we are men with penises and testicles. Throwing on a dress and a wig (or not in some cases) does not make us women.

Women expect to have privacy (from men) when they visit the ladies restroom. That's the very reason there are usually separate restrooms for males and females. This sometimes puts us in awkward situations, but we should try to remember that other people have rights, not just us.

Best to find a family or single stall unisex restroom.

[Veronica27]

I am still confused as to what GG's are doing in bathrooms that that this need for privacy is so important. Are they taking their tops off at the sinks or dropping their pants there? Or in reality is most of the private stuff going on behind closed doors?

Women frequently go to the restroom together when out, which is something that men do not usually do. One of the reasons is often that they might want to discuss personal women's issues with their friends, out of earshot of their menfolk, or any other men who might be around.

Secondly, it is not only what we might see in there, but also what we might hear, or smell or even imagine. As far as what we see, stall doors rarely go to the floor, and the walls are seldom that high, that a tall man on tiptoes could not see over them.

Thirdly, women often touch up their makeup, fix their hair and generally just like to check their appearance in the mirrors. They are far more self conscious doing this in the presence of strangers who happen to be men, than other women, who understand this need. Sure, crossdressers might need to do the same things, but if they are not totally passable, they are seen as men in the eyes of the women. When travelling, I often see men shaving and doing other grooming things that they wouldn't necessarily want women who are strangers to them to see.

Finally, the advice given here usually is to get in, do your thing and get out without taking time to do what the women normally do. Not exactly ladylike.

[Gabby6790]

Veronica,
Those all seem like very superficial things to me. Some of them even perpetuate the myth that TGs are deviants. The simple fact is that a GG has as much of a chance of a Lesbian peaking their head under a stall door to sneak a peak as they do of a TG doing it.

And honestly, the idea that a TG shouldn't use their presenting bathroom because GGs want to use it as a private gabfest is ridiculous.

[Krisi]

Honestly, here is the original post:

Hi ladies, im new to cd... well is something that i have always wanted to explore more. As I become more brave in deessing up, im still in thr closet and of course my wife doesnt know and i like to keep it that way. But my questions is when you guys are out and about and need to use the restrooms which one do you use?

Take note that we are talking about crossdressers here, not "TG".

[Judith96a]

Which restroom to use if you're a CD presenting as female...?
This angst about which 'facility' to use seems to be a very American thing. On this side of the pond we don't seem to have the same concern. Perhaps the 'old country' has got something going for it after all?

Don't even think about the men's' room (unless, ironically, you're 100% passable as a female!). That's just asking for trouble. (Personally, if I had my way I would make any politician who proposes legislation to the effect that you should do so live for 48 hours dressed as a woman and drinking 1l of water per hour with no access to a loo. Then I'd dump them in (wherever you perceive as being the least Trans-tolerant area of their state) and wait to see how long they'd last before going to the 'ladies' rather than the 'gents')
If there's a 'family' restroom or a wheelchair-friendly unisex restroom then use that.
Otherwise, use the 'ladies', get in, do what is necessary and, if there is anyone else in the 'facility' get out! Don't act like an intruder, just act natural.
Of course, if your state has enacted 'restroom laws' then abide by those and avoid using a public restroom altogether.
Pragmatic safety measures are much more important than rights!

[Lorileah]

Honestly, here is the original post:



Take note that we are talking about crossdressers here, not "TG".

Again, I ask....HOW do you KNOW when someone is a CD and someone is a transsexual? (they both are TG BTW). If you have some sort of "tell" please share. And if you wish to discuss how I don't "understand minorities", PM me...


And funny thing...most people here expect privacy in the restroom. I don't see your point. That's why they have doors...usually with latches.

The point was well made, this is an American (or at least Western) problem. Years ago in Paris, they had places on the street. I don't know if they still do or not. We, meaning the US, are victims of Victorian thinking (which oddly enough most Brits have moved beyond).

This subject has been beaten to death on this site. It will not be resolved until we get over ourselves and the teachings we have had. The US tended to be a very male dominant culture until the 60's. So women were TOLD that their bodies were responsible for the evil thoughts men had. I had hoped most here had outgrown that idea. Do a little research, how many cases of sexual assault in a women's restroom were propagated by a male in women's clothing? You'll find a few because sexual deviants will always be out there. NOW compare how many assaults were men wearing MEN'S clothing....didn't stop them from entering the women's room did it? It also amazes me how many men on this forum believe that men masquerading as women are a common threat to women....tells me that maybe dressing to them is far more sexual than they make out

[Nadine Spirit]

All of you that state that we should use the family restroom remind me of a story.

I went down to Los Angeles to have lunch with Jennifer at home. We were hanging out at an upscale shopping center waiting for the lunch time appointment when Jules and I needed to use the restroom. She had recently broken her leg pretty badly and was just getting back onto her feet. When we walked down the hall to the restrooms, the ladies was all the way down at the end of the hall. Right at the front of the hall were two family restrooms. To not make her walk as far, we tried entering the family restrooms. It was locked, but with a vacant symbol on the door. A small voicebox was nearby. I pressed the button. A man's voice came out of the speaker and informed us that we were two ladies, and not a family with children and we needed to go use the ladies room down the hall. Which of course we did.

I think that too many of you have made up quite a backstory as to what is going on in the ladies room. Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!

[Sarah L]

I think that too many of you have made up quite a backstory as to what is going on in the ladies room. Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!

Agreed! There are some places that do have bathrooms for both genders that have the stall doors going from floor to ceiling. I have only been in one of them, so I guess they are still pretty rare here.

[ReineD]

If there is no other choice than multiple stall, men's or women's bathrooms and my SO must go (if we are not on the verge of going home for example), then my SO will quickly use the women's bathroom.

But ...

My SO usually limits how much she drinks when we are out. Honestly, I've seldom seen my SO use any bathroom when we are in places that we haven't gone to before, which is easy because neither of us drinks alcohol.

Many places have single user bathrooms, whether it is designated "family" or "women's" on the door. My SO knows where they are.

We tend to go to the more popular places outside of their busiest times. We tend to avoid crowds, unless my SO is fully familiar with the venue and the bathroom situation.

So really, there are lots of ways around this. We have very seldom been in a situation where my SO had to go to the bathroom where the only choice was a multiple stall women's facility while it was crowded.

[Veronica27]

Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"? They refer to the psychological inability to perform the normal body functions of urination and bowel movements. These phobias are very real in many people and cover a wide range of triggers. Sometimes a person may be completely unaware of this problem, until confronted by their particular circumstances. Such phobias may not be so severe that they prevent a person from performing, but they non the less can make things extremely discomforting for them.

All I and several others here are emphasizing is that we should be considerate of the feelings of others, regardless of how silly or unrealistic we may think their concerns are, and understand that in a culture where sexual segregation of washrooms has been the norm for many generations, it can be presumptuous of us to expect complete acceptance of a man in a lady's room, regardless of how he is dressed. For many people, public washrooms are a very unnerving place. We, of all people, should be sensitive to the needs of others because we expect them to be sensitive to our needs. Nobody is saying we are a real threat to women or are a bunch of perverts wanting to spy on their personal moments. Phobias do exist, and the very definition of them includes irrational. Unexpected confrontation is not a way to overcome them. Many require psychological counseling in order for a person to carry on. Others may remain unknown by the individual until that moment when they are confronted by their fear.

Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways. After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations. I liked Reine's reply because it shows that her SO displays concern for others and takes responsibility to tend to his own needs with as little disruption to others as possible.

Veronica

[Eryn]

... Really what is needed are toilets like pretty much the rest of the world has - floor to ceiling stall doors, and no gaps around the doors. Then, guess what, when you go into your stall, you have total privacy. US toilet stalls are absurd!

Come now, if someone is peering under a stall door or peeking through the door gaps then it is they who have a problem, not the person on the other side.

Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"?

Yes I have, and I even suffer a bit of inability to perform bodily functions under certain circumstances. Does that give me the right to demand a completely empty bathroom when I need to pee? Of course not!

If we're going to worry about every obscure phobia and malady then nobody is going to use a restroom, either because of their phobia or because they are afraid of offending someone with a phobia.

People like me with these issues develop coping strategies that work for them, and it is unlikely that a tall woman in the bathroom is going to push someone over the edge.

[Adriana Moretti]

to me it depends on where i am, and my mood,..like this weekend....i used the ladies room the whole time out in public, however if I happen to stumble on a single stall gender nuetral bathroom in public I made sure to use it even if I diddnt have to go just to be safe, cause well....i was doing alot of drinking anyway .

[Nadine Spirit]

Come now, if someone is peering under a stall door or peeking through the door gaps then it is they who have a problem, not the person on the other side.

Agreed. But I am not talking about people purposefully looking under the doors or into the cracks. Sometimes though I have been in a stall with absurdly small walls or extremely large gaps around the doors, and it is more than a bit unnerving. Especially when you can clearly see people outside of your stall, then they could clearly see inside.

All I am advocating for are full walls and doors, and then ridding any of the rooms of any gender designation entirely, allowing all humans to access any toilet they so choose. Personally I am disgusted by urinals and think they should be entirely done away with anyway.

But then again, I often abdicate for things others think are crazy so there is that.

[Lorileah]

Have any of you ever heard the terms "paruresis" or "parcopresis"? They refer to the psychological inability to perform the normal body functions of urination and bowel movements. These phobias are very real in many people and cover a wide range of triggers. Sometimes a person may be completely unaware of this problem, until confronted by their particular circumstances. Such phobias may not be so severe that they prevent a person from performing, but they non the less can make things extremely discomforting for them.

so this would be the same IF anyone came into the restroom. If a CD was there, one would assume you are in your stall and all you see are feet and someone going into another stall...you wouldn't know it was a certain gender. Not really a good argument to keep someone out of a public restroom

All I and several others here are emphasizing is that we should be considerate of the feelings of others,

We should always be considerate of other's feelings, I agree Now please tell me how we know those feelings in a public situation. You know I don't like using a public restroom but when nature calls...I go. I don't call ou as I enter "Hey are there any __________'s in here? Cuz I gotta go and you'll make me not be able to"

Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways.

Ah, the old, I'm sorry my feelings got in the way of your feelings. I am a lowlife, forgive me" Really?

After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations.

Shall we revisit the racial and religious discrimination world of 40 years ago?

I liked Reine's reply because it shows that her SO displays concern for others and takes responsibility to tend to his own needs with as little disruption to others as possible.

I love Reine, she has been here as long or longer than I have and we have PM'ed several times. She is a sweetie and very intelligent person. However did you READ the post? Her SO doesn't like using public facilities even when NOT dressed...you opening line embodied I believe, so the clothing wasn't the reason or a very small part of the reason.

Being "Pee-shy" isn't a reason to keep others out of the restroom

[Eryn]

But I am not talking about people purposefully looking under the doors or into the cracks. Sometimes though I have been in a stall with absurdly small walls or extremely large gaps around the doors, and it is more than a bit unnerving. Especially when you can clearly see people outside of your stall, then they could clearly see inside.

Actually, no. Inside the stall you are stationary and physically close to the gaps which gives you a broader range of vision than that available to someone moving about outside.

Even assuming that they are peering into the gaps, the TG occupant of the stall is hardly standing there waving her junk in the breeze. There may be a couple of seconds during the disrobing and robing processes within the stall where you might see something unfeminine, but during the actual business all the peeper will see is a person with their skirt in their lap sitting on the throne. The chance of seeing the naughty bits is pretty slim unless the person looking is herself a voyeur. Honestly, when was the last time you saw someone else's privates (male or female) in a restroom?

Oh, and to the concept of dehydrating myself to avoid the need of using the bathroom I have to say no. I'm not going to endanger my health or even my comfort and enjoyment to avoid possibly offending some theoretical person.

[heatherdress]

The sexual assault is a HUGE red herring in all this because sexual assaults by men on women are usually not by men PRESENTING as woman.

Red herring. Sorry but I believe this is an ignorant and insensitive attitude. Maybe if you lived with the experience of a sexual assault you might understand that anxiety and fear come from the past, regardless of whether it is likely that an repeat attack will occur, which it rarely will. A woman who was raped or attacked, and unfortunately there are too many, can experience significant negative feelings if a man appears unexpectedly in her space - and many women do believe a women's rest room is their space.

It is funny that we feel so strong on this site about wanting respect and dignity for ourselves, yet we don't try to understand the feelings of people we may truly scare by our appearance. We do not feel we threaten others but we can and we do, just as we often feel threatened and disrespected. What's the difference?

Maybe a touch of empathy will promote greater mutual respect and understand.

[Nadine Spirit]

The chance of seeing the naughty bits is pretty slim unless the person looking is herself a voyeur. Honestly, when was the last time you saw someone else's privates (male or female) in a restroom?

Now I feel as though I am offering up evidence for why GMs should not be allowed in GGs restrooms, because I would like full walls and a full door and have suggested that people can CLEARLY see things in and out.

So, for full disclosure.... no I have not ever seen anyone else's privates while visiting any female restroom, ever. But have I been in a stall, and in certain select restrooms, and have had people inordinately close to the door look into the gap? Yes, I have. Was my wife in a restroom when a small child has peered in from the next stall, under the wall, yes she has been. Now, in the thousands of female restrooms I have been in, how many of these types of occurrences have ever happened? Maybe 2 or 3 times. Odd things happen. Out of the norm things have happened. So... to just ME personally, I would PREFER full walls and full doors in every restroom. I am of the opinion that if that was the standard in every restroom, everywhere, then not nearly as many people would have an issue with going to the bathroom with someone with different genitals going in the adjoining stall.

Does this help to clarify what my position is on this? Cause I kind of feel that you and I Eryn are on the same page with allowing access to the restroom, but I kind of feel like we are arguing.

[heatherdress]

If we're going to worry about every obscure phobia and malady then nobody is going to use a restroom, either because of their phobia or because they are afraid of offending someone with a phobia.

People like me with these issues develop coping strategies that work for them, and it is unlikely that a tall woman in the bathroom is going to push someone over the edge.

Wow - I think you need to understand there is a tremendous difference between anxiety and obscure phobias, Eryn. Many people with very common mental illnesses struggle just to get thru every day, and it may not be easy to simply think they can develop coping strategies.

And if you are a 6 ft 2 inch crossdresser, you may not be perceived as a tall woman in the bathroom but more likely a man in a dress in a bathroom. You probably would not push anyone over the brink, but you might upset them. And you would never know.

I am not suggesting that you give up your rights, and not protect yourself, but there is certainly some care and sensitivity that we, perhaps more than others, should display.

[jenni_xx]

The possibility of violence isn't a justifiable reason not to use the men's bathroom. Just as much as others possibly being "pee-shy" isn't a good enough reason not use the women's bathrooms. Both are silly argument's that completely miss the point of the issue at hand.

I have suffered from an inability to pee in a public place. Stood at a Urinal, with men waiting behind/stood in the urinal's either side of me, it's not a pleasant experience. The level of self-consciousness I felt during such moment's can be overwhelming. Whether others notice or not is actually irrelevant when it comes to how I actually feel when it is happening (or rather when it isn't happening!!)

Never once in my life have I used the women's bathroom. Irrespective of whether I've been dressed or not. Never once in my life, when dressed en-femme, have I suffered any violence whenever I've used to men's bathroom. I'm not naive enough to think that just because it hasn't happened to me, that means it doesn't, or won't ever happen. But then if it's a threat of violence that stops you from using the men's bathroom, then that very same threat of violence should stop you from ever venturing out dressed in women's clothing. That possible threat doesn't only materialise the moment you walk into a bathroom, just as it doesn't go away the moment you walk outside a bathroom.

It isn't a right for a crossdresser to use the women's toilets. So no rights are being infringed in this regard. It is stupid to even begin to suggest that this is analogous to racial discrimination. It isn't the same thing at all.

[Eryn]

It isn't a right for a crossdresser to use the women's toilets. So no rights are being infringed in this regard.

Actually, in many enlightened places, it is a right to use the restroom which matches one's gender identity. Despite the ominous warnings of those who imagined the worst possible scenarios, restroom civility has been maintained and sexual predators in dresses haven't flocked into the ladies' rooms. It's been a total non-event and the majority of people didn't even notice it.

It is stupid to even begin to suggest that this is analogous to racial discrimination. It isn't the same thing at all.

Discrimination is discrimination. It hurts the same and is equally destructive to our society no matter the cause. It particularly hurts when some who should understand this best actually advocate for the scare tactics of the anti-TG groups.

Wow - I think you need to understand there is a tremendous difference between anxiety and obscure phobias, Eryn.

Actually, anxiety is a malady, not a phobia, and I did include maladies in the post to which you are referring.

[ReineD]

Eryn, we're talking about a diverse group of individuals when we use the term "crossdresser" and as much as people don't like to affix labels, it's difficult to have a meaningful conversation about this without identifying certain major groups that fall under the label "CD".

You are speaking from the point of view of someone who dresses for gender ID reasons and I agree, you and others who are transsexual should use the women's bathrooms. You are a woman in transition. There are also some CDers here who dress for reasons of well-being as an outlet to express a feminine facet of who they are. I also believe they should be able to use the women's bathroom while dressed. It would be dangerous for them to use the men's facilities.

But, have a look at the millions of sex-themed websites out there when you google "crossdresser". I've just done this and Google returned 19 million results, the bulk related to sexual pursuits. Do you think that a guy who dresses for sex and who gets his jollies from playing a female role (he likely would not want to be a member here since our rules prohibit focusing on sex) should use the women's bathroom?

The public cannot discern someone's motives just by looking at them. This is why I think there is such controversy regarding the use of bathrooms.

[Judith96a]

Let's show concern for others feelings, and emphasize what we can do to avoid such confrontational situations rather than expecting others to alter their ways. After all, we are the ones who are behaving contrary to society's normal expectations.

I reckon that using the 'ladies' by the 'get in, do your business, get out - all with as little fuss as possible' approach is showing due concern for others feelings whilst not putting oneself at un-nessesary risk.

As for us "behaving contrary to society's normal expectations" - OK by wearing clothing that does not conform to the 'male' stereotype - yes. But what exactly is "society's normal expectation" regarding which bathroom a CDer should use? I suspect that if you approached 100 people on any street in the US and gave them each 10 seconds to answer that question you would be lucky to get more than 5 actual responses within the time limit.

By the way, for those who want to legislate against transgendered individuals (by which they really mean MtF transsexuals) using the bathroom that matches their presentation - fine, go ahead! But, make sure that your legislation also requires that every building to which the legislation applies is provided with 'male', 'female', 'transgendered (mtf)', 'transgendered (ftm)', & 'accessible' bathrooms all with equal capacity and that each bathroom (not suite of rooms but each room) is staffed with a 'checker' who can verify in at least 3 languages that each individual who is attempting to access the room is of the 'correct' gender. That, of course, will require each individual to present their identity documents to the 'checker' each time they go to the loo! Ridiculous? Of course! That's the point.

[Lorileah]

Red herring. Sorry but I believe this is an ignorant and insensitive attitude. Maybe if you lived with the experience of a sexual assault you might understand that anxiety and fear come from the past, regardless of whether it is likely that an repeat attack will occur, which it rarely will. A woman who was raped or attacked, and unfortunately there are too many, can experience significant negative feelings if a man appears unexpectedly in her space - and many women do believe a women's rest room is their space.

Did you READ the rest...very FEW women are attacked by MEN WEARING WOMEN'S clothing. And trust me I know women who have been raped by strangers and partners...I know a woman who almost died from it. I know another women who was told by police "go home and cook him a nice dinner." The point of this thread isn't MEN attacking Women in general, we all know that happens frequently. The Red Herring is the number of women attacked by men who present as women. And I would suspect that women attacked by men who dress as women in a public restroom would be even less. Their space? So now should we outlaw people, especially transpeople, in alleys or parks or streets or even in their homes? That is where the attacks occur more. I am happy you rose to defend women who were assaulted, that shows compassion, but throw the men in women's clothing in a public restroom scares women argument is a fallacy.


OK This is going is circles. And getting to be nothing but a flaming contest. Thread done