Is the world today leaving us here behind?

[PaulaQ]

I read about Texas not being friendly. Move to Washington State and several of its more populated cities. The law protects gays, lesbians, transgenders and cross dressers. We're legal here. We're protected here! Yet, I like to keep my cross dressing in the closet because legal protection does not confer acceptance.

Dallas is friendly. It's a little oasis of (semi) tolerance. We've had laws that protect us for 13 years here. The forces of uptightness are trying to roll it back. I pass, I've had GRS, and I have documents. Basically every place is friendly for me. Many of us are not so lucky, and the laws that are on the books don't actually protect you from much. They just discourage, slightly, people who would harass us. The fines for discrimination in most city ordinances are not sufficient to stop a business from discrimination. How safe Dallas is, is another matter. Three months ago, a guy was convicted of killing his trans girlfriend here in Dallas. He got 10 years probation. No jail time. Yep. So rolling back these laws, and ratcheting up the rhetoric, encourages certain kinds of people to attack us.

The way to gain acceptance is to come out, and have people understand you. This is a strategy that is being pursued by trans people, and (hopefully) supported by our often feckless gay allies. Ideally, we'd do what gays did to gain acceptance over the past 20-30 years before the next presidential election. I'm not optimistic that we'll succeed at that.

I don't believe they can win in the long run, by the way. However, things here could become exceedingly unpleasant for quite some time. Hopefully nothing too unpleasant happens, like a major terrorist strike, that makes some of the more dangerous candidates seem sensible to voters.

Talking about things like this on this forum make me really sad. One of the things I worry about is the rest of us in the trans community throwing y'all (and the drag queens) under the bus in exchange for a modicum of survivability from a hostile administration. Believe me, there are some of us (not me), who would do this in a New York minute. If the religious extremists start to jack with our access to medical transition, or otherwise put transsexuals at risk, using crossdressers as a pretense, we won't honestly have much choice but to try to distance ourselves from you. It'll be nasty, really nasty. And it'll probably kill some people - which is why I would never support it. But I'm only one woman, and I've heard others in the community who'd throw CDs to the wolves on a good day. And what I worry about are days that are far from good.

Look, I'll drop this because I know two things:
1. Not everyone is cut out to be an activist, or even up to coming out. I get that. I'm not trying to shame anyone, I promise.
2. I don't think that most of you who aren't out really have a sense of what can happen if people who are actively hostile to us all gain the white house and the congress.

Well, let's hope really awful things don't come to pass.

[Eryn]

They are trying to do that with a ballot initiative here in California. Some bunch of "Christians" from Texas is going around to all the evangelical churches here gathering signatures. But we are not going to let a bunch of carpetbaggers from Texas tell us how to run things here in Cali. Things have changed a little since the bad old days of Proposition 8.

It would not do to be too confident. Remember that the carpetbaggers from Utah easily pushed through Prop 8 by rallying the Morman, Black, and Catholic church populations. It took the courts to stop the madness. Unfortunately, I don't see the courts giving our issues the same weight as they did gay issues.

[NicoleScott]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion. Or does it depend on what's said and who said it?

[CarlaWestin]

Men who like to dress as women, yet don't want to be women, are happy, by and large being men. Is it that this particular "subset" is most confusing to all?

Why does this need to be confusing? It just is what it is.

As I've stated numerous times, being genderfluid, I just enjoy being wherever on the gender compass that I enjoy at the moment. Even in full fem, I'm still male by definition. It just depends on whose definition. Look at all the comments about Caitlyn Jenner. Yet, as she told her mom, "It's still the same me."

So, how do I want society to view me? Either positively or, not at all! The real issue is that gender and gender emulation is skewered by archaic and primitive superstition.

[pamela7]

there is at least one elephant in this discussion room (and I don't mean in this thread) that cannot be discussed. I find it foolish but live with it for the benefit of the other aspects. However, being a holistic therapist whose work has been described as more gestalt than gestalt, i know a lot of the stuckness and trivia is due to "skirting" around the elephant, and that a lot more progression, healing and more rapid acceptance would emerge if the existence of the elephant were acknowledged.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Pamela's comment reminds me of Disney's elephant with long girly eyelashes and a tiny skirt. Perhaps that's what the studio had in mind?

[Mayo]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion.

• Politics, with the exception of TG rights in the Media Section
• Religion of any sort, no exceptions

I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a 'political discussion', though I have a feeling it means mentioning specific real-world groups and explicitly advocating for or against their positions.

[N]o social movement, construction or organization is fully comprised of activists only [...] yet only a few participate actively of the political debates.

Many people will often support a cause but remain silent and leave the work to the activists on the front line. Often the challenge of activism is to get these voices heard, in a voting situation or in terms of financial support for the cause or just to stand up and be counted. If the silent majority stays silent, it doesn't count for anything. If you oppose how certain groups are treated in public or in the media, for example, but don't speak up about it, such treatment will continue because 'nobody objects'. Silence is approval.

For the most part, y'all aren't out, don't participate in trans activism, and gain benefit from efforts to make sure you have access to public facilities en femme because of the efforts transsexuals and non-binary trans. Sure, I know some CDs who fight the good fight. Most of you don't.

Agreed. CDs don't have much representation in the general activist community. I myself confess to being mainly an 'armchair activist', though I do attend several rallies each year (mainly in support of Indigenous peoples' issues and against racism and violence against women) and occasionally sign petitions and write letters to politicians.

But, in order to engage, one needs to find agreement among a group of people who will then be willing to join in the vehicles for change.

Exactly. If marginalized groups don't stand up and make themselves visible, they'll continue to remain marginalized and invisible. Asexuals and bisexuals are gaining visibility to combat the myths about them, as are trans (TS) people and bigender/genderqueers. There's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same, if they wish to. At a minimum, people who want to change the status quo need to agree to engage in activism.

I understand the activism part as in feminism,trans whatever but some activists can be rude as all get out and super pushy demanding you acknowledge them.

Sometimes you need to be 'in your face' in order to get your message across. Being nice and polite often means you can be ignored by the establishment because you're not causing any problem and therefore they don't have to deal with you, then when years, decades or centuries of being ignored erupts and there's rioting in the streets you get vilified. Many conservatives appear to object to gay rights because they just 'don't want to see that'. I agree that it's a difficult line to walk, but advocating for one's right to exist involves some discomfort for all concerned.

In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live".

We need to respect each others' positions, and that includes acknowledging that some people would rather be left alone to mind their own business. But 'live and let live' doesn't mean you can't take an activist role. Acquiring or defending rights doesn't necessarily mean taking them away from someone else. People (both within and outside this forum) may disagree about the right course of action, but there's no question that discussion is needed. Naturally, threads dissolving into flame wars is not 'discussion' - sometimes people need to 'agree to disagree'.

So if you’ll take a suggestion, whenever you do find a blog, article, etc that you feel merits discussion, please do post it in the Media section. It will not be deleted, but often there will not be a lot of participation. And of course you will get a lot of discussion about any transition-related topics in the TS section.

I would certainly be in favour of seeing some more explicitly activist threads.

[Sarah Doepner]

Thanks Sarah, that is an honest, well intentioned reply, and one that I really appreciate.

I do have to ask - why do you feel that it would be a discussion that is "a little out of place on this main page"? It is a discussion that doesn't have to take the place of any other discussion, and it is one that is topical, and one that doesn't need to be at the detriment to any other discussion (that is, it doesn't have to take up a space on the main page that would have otherwise been given to a more "apt thread" (for this site). We are part of the issue - this site is the number one place for crossdressers (or at least it advertises itself as such).

Basically it's a formatting issue. One of the things that is attractive about this site is the ability to focus our attention on things that we are interested in at the time. Since time is a limited resource for many members here, the ability to drill down into sections on "Clothing and Makeup" or "Photos" or "Media" or "Writers", etc. is a real boon. My suggestion is also based on the wide variety of opinions represented in this thread by the members as well as the difficulty in finding the right words to actually define our concerns. Much of what we see in this thread isn't disagreement about the merits of understanding and supporting Trans issues but expressing it in a fashion that is understood by all. As such, we have a thread that for a period of time was rather combative and generated some hard feelings. That sort of thing tends to drive some members away as they are really looking for examples of success stories on first time out trips. Having a distinct area for Activism or Controversy would allow the user to understand what they were headed for and hopefully allocate the time needed to fully explore the issues being addressed.

The strength of the site is it's diversity and, unfortunately, some of our sweet spirits see enough controversy in real life or over on Facebook and I'd be afraid that too much of the same here would drive them away. Maybe not. Maybe I don't give them credit enough for their strength or remember how easy it is to skip over threads that don't interest them. I advocate for a distinct area because I agree we need to be aware of those forces in society that are a potential threat and need a response or represent measurable progress and merit support. With that area in place, those who still need to focus on their own progress can do so and still understand that when they are ready to expand their horizons to community, there is a resource for that as well.

[Eryn]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion. Or does it depend...

What I stated is the reality of an initiative passed that oppressed part of the LGBT community and the likelihood that a similar initiative will be passed targeted directly at us.

My mention of churches is not a discussion of religious ideology, simply a statement of who our enemies are. This has been well documented.

[Sky]

Sometimes you need to be 'in your face' in order to get your message across. Being nice and polite often means you can be ignored by the establishment because you're not causing any problem and therefore they don't have to deal with you, then when years, decades or centuries of being ignored erupts and there's rioting in the streets you get vilified.

I wish I could believe this. I support mass movements and public demonstrations, although to be honest cd rights are not my main concern. However, modern world (and likely ancient too) political decisions are fueled by lobbying and behind-the-curtain deals, not by direct popular action. A single guy/girl/noun of your choice talking for five minutes to the right congressman, secretary or frigging rich guy (usually over wine and hors d'oeuvres) does more than a hundred rallies. And I think that's the real story behind the exponential growth of the LGBT movement.

But 'live and let live' doesn't mean you can't take an activist role.

Of course not. It means that while some do take an activist role, some others stay at home watching Tootsie (yes I have a thing for levity, sorry)

[IamWren]

If marginalized groups don't stand up and make themselves visible, they'll continue to remain marginalized and invisible. There's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same, if they wish to. At a minimum, people who want to change the status quo need to agree to engage in activism.
.

I'd have to disagree with your statement that "there's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same..."

The reason CDers can't get together and do the same is because there are a hundred different reasons someone chooses or (more importantly for our sisters with GD) feels compelled to their core to wear women's clothes. There is no consensus that we can point to that gives leverage and momentum for activism.

The other reason is trying to change the perception of the general public about CDers is an uphill battle is that some in our community make it more difficult because of the very reason they dress. I'm speaking specifically of the fetish dressers who like to go out in public. Yep... I went there.

Look, if that's your thing, more power to ya. But that person who is a fetish dresser is going to be looked at with contempt by the general public. It is what it is. And that fetish dresser becomes a representative of CDers by being spotted in public. Unlike some of the very passable, very blending CDers who simply mingle, do their daily life, go unnoticed and go home, it is the over-the-top, six-inch heels in a micro-skirt going to the grocery store crossdresser who gives the general public their impression of what a CDer is all about.

[Lorileah]

OK people, start playing nice. Flaming not allowed. Calling other members names, not allowed.

Jenni- If you would look at the whole site, the things you bring up are often in the media section.

This whole thread is going south in a hurry. Before anyone posts anymore read the FAQs. If you have questions about that contact an Admin or Mod. One warning, this gets anymore inflammatory or divisive, it is gone. Keep it polite

[Mayo]

I agree that the diversity of the CD population prevents adopting a monolithic front, just as trying to ride the trans wagon won't work as a strategy. Several ideas occur to me off the top of my head, however, and there is some commonality with trans (TS) people - the whole arbitrary construct of gender. I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

[Teresa]

Jenni,
We all chose to be here for our own reasons, whether trivial or life changing , if you use the forum correctly you will find a section where you can air your views .
I found it very easy to forget that the MtF section is an open forum, what you post is read by members and non members alike around the World, it might be the reason why many subjects are trivial to your mind. The point to remember is they often describe small stepping stones members make along their journey, in that context it's a little unfair to dismiss them as unimportant .
Does it really matter what is passing us by as long as we can live with our CDing needs and problems with the people most important to us ?

[IamWren]

Several ideas occur to me off the top of my head, however, and there is some commonality with trans (TS) people - the whole arbitrary construct of gender. I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

I can buy off on that Mayo. I assume what you mean is rallying behind the idea that gender is not the binary/black&white concept that is so pervasive to but to try and educate and inform the masses to the idea that gender is more of a scale?

I'll concede that. Certainly that is an idea that a majority of CDers could get behind despite the reasons for crossdressing.

[PaulaQ]

I have a more nuts and bolts reason for suggesting commonality between us - it's basically impossible to differentiate in any practical way between a CD and a TS just starting transition. Likewise, it's impossible in any practical sense to say which CD will or won't transition until they do.

People in transition need access to public facilities - some of us will die if we don't transition. CDs need access to public facilities too - but for most of you these are "nice to have", you'd survive if you couldn't really go out en femme. Still, because of the overlap between our groups in terms of members and needed public access and non-discrimination protection, it makes sense to me for us to work together.

[Beverley Sims]

My goodness this thread took off.

If you want to change the world overnight there are a lot more political, savage and sarcastic sites you may visit.

The attraction of this site is that it is more of a help forum for those just out and discovering themselves.

We generally don't throw crap at each other either.

Others can tell stories of their past and others relate to it by telling of their experiences.

There is the lounge to discuss that building stuffup or crap car purchase in your life and others will laugh with you and make you feel better.

If your interests are transgendered there are other sections to read.

These also contain help and suggestions.

No there is not an opportunity to change the world overnight here but it can be done ever so slowly and nicely to boot.

Maybe I will go out and buy me a pair right now.

Does that mean this reply should be in fashion? :-)

[IamWren]

...but it can be done ever so slowly and nicely to boot.
Maybe I will go out and buy me a pair right now.
Does that mean this reply should be in fashion? :-)

Only if you had said what color panties you're wearing right now. :D
(sorry... couldn't help myself. just trying to interject a little humor)

[arbon]

What are you being left behind from really?

Most crossdressers are really only held back by their own ego and fear - not so much because of how they are viewed and treated by others.

The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

[Tina_gm]

I have been a moderator on a political forum. They really should just 1st be called a cage match forum with politics being what is fought about. I have seen political discussions disrupt and ruin what was otherwise nice family functions, holiday parties. Political discussions are a beast within themselves. Whether they should or shouldn't, they are

From what I am trying to follow of this thread, the OP is advocating getting out and having our voice be more heard. Well, true enough words. However, there are a great many of us on here who like to dress, but also like the lives we have. For many of us, it isn't our biggest issue in our lives. possibly because we are just not far enough on the TG scale, and other priorities in life are higher than our gender issues are.

This forum is a great place for those of us who fall in such a category. We still need lots of support, and a place to go. We are quite a minority in the grand scheme of things. While I am all up for intense discussions involving family and friends, workplace acceptance. Still, I am glad we do not get hardcore wrapped up into political discussions. I left that far behind. Not because I am no longer interested or involved in political discussion, but just not on here. I do not come here for that. Sometimes, it might just be a good thing to discuss how to polish my nails too.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I largely agree with Mayo and Paula Q that activism, awareness, education, and political assertion of our rights is not only important but essential for us as a group. I also agree that what takes place on this main page is very important, particularly as individuals looking for support in our own journeys and being able to share that in a fun, supportive, community like environment. I myself am guilty of not using the media page as the title misled me and I assumed it was more to do with pop culture, celebrities etc. I think that if it becomes MORE clear (not just to experienced members but new ones too) that the media page is a/the arena for activism/awareness then more of us might start using it and have some deep discussions develop on it while those who arn't ready or interested in it can still get what they need.

As far as cders uniting, I think diversity IS our strength and IS the point. Dispeling the long and deeply held gender binary assumption and achieving equal human rights and acceptance as human beings is our most basic goal. It won't happen over night however if they didnt start building Rome, then there wouldn't be one. Fetishist cders simply ARE a sub category of who we are as a group and rather than being embarrassed of them or feeling like they hold us back we should emrace them and stand solidly with them as we would wish for others to stand solidly with us. Again, diversity IS our strength and point. We don't want the general public to assume cders are all the same (including that we're all blend ins) because we're not. BDSM, fetishism, and sexuality for that matter are beginning to lose thier "taboo" stereotype (look at the impact of 50 shades of grey) and like cding it is an area that needs awareness/education, maybe in a sense that area would be like part of the socially active fetishists' portfolio. Its up to all of us to let the world know that we're NOT all fetishists but also that we're NOT all blend ins etc etc and thats the beauty of it. I also think its important to remain allied with our TS sisters/brothers. We don't need to leave the arena that they lead, we just need to show up for the fight and let it be known that CDers exist under the TG umbrella and we have the right to exist and we are here to stay. This is coming from someone who is largely NOT out YET, but I do have TG disscusions with people and use education/awareness as my primary tool and I am deeply involved in asserting Indigenous rights, cultural revitalization (which will include our perspective on LGBT) and cross cultural teaching with the public which is an essential strategy for Indigenous as well as LGBT folks and any other group looking for acceptance and understanding. But I also love to hear about high heels, garterbelts, and lipstick!

[Meghan4now]

Oh and by the way, "Religion" may be banned, but constantly malignant it with total impunity and total lack of aknowledging that some people have a GOOD experience is perfectly fine. Well unless it is secular humanism, druidic paganism, scientology or some new age crystal hawking cult. Those are ok and really cool dude.

[AlleyKat]

#edit# I was reminded politely where that quote applied, and am recending that comment, the rest still holds

Honestly. Everyone. I think this thread needs to die. I know I was one of the first to flame, I'm dealing with personal issues and exploded here, which isn't right. But this is a bunch of people are arguing the same side and everybody is so heated that no one notices.

Would it be nice if cd's got together (with tg's and tg or not) and made themselves heard? Yes. Is this main page the place? No.
My favorite word to describe why not has also been used to describe this thread. It's divisive. The whole reason I was worried about politalk here is that I was afraid it would rupture this safe haven. Yes, I'm new here, and yes, as a tg its not the perfect fit (something I didn't realize was an issue until this thread) but it had a huge impact on me accepting me. The amount of support here is amazing. This has been likened to burying our heads in the sand... But that's the point, really. We all know that there is shit out there. This is a place to be comforted and focus on the positives.

Admin, can we please get a forum for this, so those who want these kind of talks can start their discussions and we can let this thread go?

[PaulaQ]

I understand why people don't want threads like this one on this forum. And I think it wouldn't be helpful to have these types of discussions continually. Walling this off in a new forum, or "Media" isn't too great either though because those sub-fora just don't have the readership of this one. I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time writing something that will be seen by 10 people.

So I really think that the best answer is for discussions like this to pop up once in a while, then die down. I realize that isn't so much a rule as a flexible bending of the rules, provided people don't go nuts.

What I really wish we had here was a place to seriously discuss relationships and sexuality.

@arbon - I assert CDs have the same fundamental issue as transsexuals. Namely that society won't let either of us be true to ourselves without exacting a terrible price. The difference is transsexuals die if we don't pay the price, while they have the "luxury" of putting on a fake front indefinitely.

[Eryn]

...The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

In that case, I've had a very long swim!

I may have more mature attitudes about them, but the issues I face are pretty much the same now as before.