Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[flatlander_48]

A:

An even better example is the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). It isn't logical that people would feel that differently abled people are not deserving of being able to enter buildings easily, have usable restroom facilities, etc. yet there was pushback as the legislation was being considered. My wife uses a wheelchair and we've found many places that would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) for her to enter without assistance. Note that this is 24 years after the ADA became enforceable.

The point is that I think having unisex restrooms is going to a long time.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

Wow, let's turn the restrooms into the OK Corral. That will fix the problem. :facepalm:

[Sarah Doepner]

Things have been changing quickly for the Transgender world. In fact it seems that in terms of visibility, acceptance as well as becoming the target of both legislation and misguided hate we have been on an incredible fast track. This kind of speed of change in a society creates a lot of turbulence and I'd suggest we are near the confluence and experiencing some of what may still get worse. But down the stream things will calm down as everyone gets used to the new order of things.

I'm not saying it will all be perfect, don't get me wrong. But it will likely be more grounded in reality as the truth seeps into the mainstream. There will be the folks who never accept us, just as there are people who still believe their race or religion is superior to everyone else, there are those who will be raised to see Transgender folks as wrong or evil incarnate. Too bad for them. But the laws that are being proposed are clearly unconstitutional and will be overturned. Companies who support and even embrace us will continue to stay in business and prosper ( as will some who don't like us ), and slowly we will finally become part of the main stream. In the long term the outlook is good but will take attention, work and some sacrifice to make sure the result is the best possible one. We need to take care to show appreciation to allies, educate without alienation or being condescending and occasionally even listening to others so we can address their concerns.

We need not give up or settle for anything less than being full members of society, but honestly, after generations in the closet the last few years has been a trip on a rocket. I'm wanting it to end and be settled, but patience is in order as the details are worked out and the truth is shared and shared and shared until, all of a sudden, it becomes obvious to the majority. Keep aware, be careful in this tumultuous time, keep working and be patient.

[Lorileah]

Dear members: While we are allowing some laxity (and very little of that) with religion and politics in this thread only, the rest of the FAQs still apply. If you need a refresher

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...es#faq_content

[lisa_vin]

This is one of the arguments used by the haters and it doesn't hold water. Even if someone does dress up for such purposes, even if they have a legal right to be there, assault of any description is a crime and there are numerous laws to deal with the perpetrators. If someone is intent on assaulting/molesting another person what's to stop them simply walking into a bathroom in male clothing to carry out said deed.

In the UK it's not illegal to dress in public in the clothes of the opposite gender UNLESS the intention is to deceive others as part of a criminal enterprise. I see no reason why law makers on the other side of the pond can't draft laws allowing bathroom access that include such provisions. Do you sack all sports coaches/priests/politicians/care workers just because a small minority are sexual predators. No, you weed out those who are and punish as necessary.

It is wrong to punish many for the actions of one.

I never said that committing a crime of any kind was or would be made legal. I said that this law could give a sexual predator the idea to dress (disguise themselves) as the opposite sex and enter that sex's bathroom with their sole intent being to pursue a victim and commit a crime. I know that laws do not ALLOW these types of crimes to be committed and that the perpetrator would be severely punished if caught. But that doesn't hide the fact that a sex crime can still be committed and an innocent victim and their family will end up suffering long and hard because of it no matter what happens to the perpetrator. It just gives these predators a "legal" mode of access to commit their evil.

[emma5410]

As I understand the laws, trans men will have to use women's bathrooms so sexual predators will not even have to dress as women. This has nothing to do with protecting anyone. It is designed to attack trans people. It is disappointing to hear people on these boards repeating the haters arguments.

[Alice Torn]

i grew up in farm country, and often, we had to use the only bathroom nearby- an outhouse. Worked fine. No mens or womens outhouses, just the one. Say, maybe that would solve the whole blasted problem! Just have one big bathroom, for all! But with totally private stalls, with walls from ceiling to floor, and no places for anyone to try some tricks.

[LydiaL]

i grew up in farm country, and often, we had to use the only bathroom nearby- an outhouse. Worked fine. No mens or womens outhouses, just the one. Say, maybe that would solve the whole blasted problem! Just have one big bathroom, for all!

I agree with Alice Torn,

A single (or parallel) group of non-generic specific outhouses available for public use.

But beware, a waiting Black Widow spider (or other toothed or forked tongued critter) ready to inflict impending pain on one's posterior!

just saying....

[Rhonda Darling]

I never said that committing a crime of any kind was or would be made legal. I said that this law would allow a sexual predator to dress (disguise themselves) as the opposite sex and enter that sex's bathroom with the sole intent of pursuing a victim and committing a crime. I know that laws do not ALLOW these types of crimes to be committed and that the perpetrator would be severely punished if caught. But that doesn't hide the fact that a sex crime can still be committed and an innocent victim and their family will end up suffering long and hard because of it no matter what happens to the perpetrator. It just gives these "predators" a legal mode of access to commit their evil.

I'm so sorry, I missed the grography lesson identifying the land where criminals wait for a law to be passed that allows them to commit a crime. It is utter nonsense to argue that a law that is intended to trample the right of transgender and transsexual individuals who desire to peacefully go potty in a bathroom where they look like others using the bathroom is somehow a law that will allow criminals (e.g., those who don't obey the law) to somehow now lawfully perpetrate their crime.

We are not the criminals, we are the ones who will be beaten to a pulp if we go into the men's room when presenting as women.

The idea that a birth certificate as I.D. will clear those who "belong in the women's restroom" is fallacious from the start. Our sacred medical scrolls for trans health require a real life experience of a year before the medical gods will allow HRT to begin. No birth certificate change during that. Can any of you hold it for a year?

Come on, get on the right side for the fight.

Stepping off soapbox.

Rhonda

[Candice June Lee]

I have not read through all of this thread. However, we have to be polite, concerned, out standing citizens. Not if just our community but the entire population. Usually we are. Foul words to a naysayer or hater only gets more negativity. It's sad we must exercise more caution than we did before. But we can and will get through this. I have always hated restrooms, period. Then to be told I can't the one that Identity with sucks. I've gotten to where my outings have to be timed to mother nature if I'm going alone. Otherwise multistall restrooms are always accompanied with my wife or close friend. That stinks but it's necessary for protection. As of yet, ive not had a bad experience in a restroom but, I don't want that chance to arise.

[flatlander_48]

The idea that a birth certificate as I.D. will clear those who "belong in the women's restroom" is fallacious from the start. Our sacred medical scrolls for trans health require a real life experience of a year before the medical gods will allow HRT to begin. No birth certificate change during that. Can any of you hold it for a year?

Note that if you are were born in Idaho, Kansas, Ohio or Tennessee, you CANNOT change your original gender marker. In the case of M2F, theirs will always read M. Further, any document that uses the gender marker from the birth certificate will also necessarily read M.

DeeAnn

[Anneliese]

There is no more serious issue. Period.

[Saikotsu]

The irony of these laws is that they force people who have transitioned to use the bathroom of their birth gender. Which means you're still going to have men in women's restrooms and women in men's.

[heatherdress]

I can't recall an news stories of a real trans person committing any crime in a bathroom....Has there ever been a case of a true trans person caught doing anything improper? Doubt it.

Unfortunately - yes, there are crossdressers arrested in public bathrooms:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/c...-walmar/nQddG/
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/27/cr...-college-dorm/
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...351232041.html
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/02/m...n-in-bathroom/
http://www.snopes.com/transgender-fi...omen-restroom/

Crossdressers who are voyeurs have always preyed upon women and children in bathrooms. They are difficult to catch and arrest. Crossdressers who were prostitutes also used to be frequently by arrested in public rest rooms in the inner city area I used to work.

[Helen_Highwater]

Heather's research does make a case that the haters can and will use. However I would suggest that the last sentence should read Voyeurs who are cross dressers, because that's what they primarily are, voyeurs who's reason for dressing is as we all know, different to ours. Looking at some of those cases it does seem that the person is more in need of psychiatric help than incarceration.

Laws cannot be formed around a small number of cases because if you do then statistically you'd need to ban many other groups, priests/pastors/care workers/doctors/dentists etc. given the well documented and numerous instances were they're been convicted of serious sexual assaults against both adults and children.

Enfemme I've walked into public toilets, made my way into the stall. I could just as easily done the same dressed in drab without being challenged and if I were a sexual predator laid in wait for a victim. And surely that's the point. Unless the toilet is extremely busy a sexual predator can access female toilets in order to carry out their criminal act. There needs to be rational debate and argument and not focused on small number of sad individuals.

[Lorileah]

Unfortunately - yes, there are crossdressers arrested in public bathrooms:

Every one of those links were not a a person claiming to be crossgender. You comparison is like when a guy in a monkey mask robs a bank...he wasn't a monkey So these examples are not really true.

[flatlander_48]

While that is an accurate distinction, somehow I don't think that anyone who would use that information negatively would point that out...

DeeAnn

[lisa_vin]

Every one of those links were not a a person claiming to be crossgender. You comparison is like when a guy in a monkey mask robs a bank...he wasn't a monkey So these examples are not really true.

Ah, and therein lies the rub......in these articles, they were all men "disguised as or pretending to identify as female". They were not even true crossdressers per se, only labelled as such by the media. They were not in there just to perform a normal body function or to "freshen up". They were predators and were in there under the guise of "female or trans" in order to perpetrate their crime! I don't care how you slice it.......these types of predators will always exist and even though they are a very low percentage of the overall population, their acts will always cause problems for the TRULY trans community. These types of incidents will be streamlined into, at least for the foreseeable future, "headline" news and therefore presented as prime examples of the "consequences" of legalizing the transgender bathroom issue! This IS the fear that many, many people cling to and identify with to justify their feelings and opposition to legalizing transgender bathroom usage. Because you can't single out and eliminate the "pervs", the issue will remain extremely hot button and divisive for the foreseeable future.

By the way, these are definitions of the members of our community from the GLAAD website. I thought this might be pertinent to this discussion as to one of the sources of confusion surrounding the identity/terminology of each individual within the trans community. (Using this definition, a crossdresser is not considered to be identifying as a woman so, therefore, he or she should not be legally allowed in the bathroom identifying to their style of dress!) This is just food for thought but does signify that there is a looooooong way to go on this issue.

From the GLAAD website........
Transgender woman:
People who were assigned male at birth but identify and live as a woman may use this term to describe themselves. They may shorten to trans woman. (Note: trans woman, not "transwoman.") Some may also use MTF, an abbreviation for male-to-female. Some may prefer to simply be called women, without any modifier. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers.

Cross-dresser:
While anyone may wear clothes associated with a different sex, the term cross-dresser is typically used to refer to heterosexual men who occasionally wear clothes, makeup, and accessories culturally associated with women. This activity is a form of gender expression, and not done for entertainment purposes. Cross-dressers do not wish to permanently change their sex or live full-time as women. Replaces the term "transvestite."

PLEASE NOTE: Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the individual. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way.[/I]

[Tina_gm]

If the purpose of these bills is to keep predatory men out of the women's bathroom, then they should do the right thing by keeping men out of the men's bathrooms as well.

[Lorileah]

PLEASE NOTE: Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the individual. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way.

I am going to reference you to the sticky about definitions; Your thinking not only is wrong, it divides us into smaller marginalized parts. Now let's ask the question "How in real life, do you tell a crossdresser from a TS (NOt transgender they are all in that boat?) You see your OWN prejudices are showing. You make an assumption before you know any facts. The articles posted were after tyhe facts hd been established, these me were criminals, perverts who used the guise to get what they wanted.


I am amazed here how many crossdressers don't see that a law against one section of is a law against all of us. Partly because crossdressers know they could in teory fade away to being "just men" so they feel that the law would not impact them.

The point I am making about the quote is if we don't get OUR own language together, how in the hell can we communicate with those who aren't in our circle. All the infighting I get to see going on in this forum is frustrating. So many want to play the game but don't want to follow the rule.

THe "Rub" as you call it is that not one...no one...in this community stood up to the media or the police and said "Listen...don't lump us with them, they are not US." Again, a bank robber isn't always blue collar low paid worker. Every minority had a hill like this to climb. How did they? They educated and informed. WE don't we hide. (excluding thos who cannot hide). There's the rub, we are not self supporting, we are in fact self destructive. Not caring is as bad as promoting wrong.

Stand up

[Tina_gm]

As guarded as I am, as much as in the closet as I am, on social media I have defended crossdressers and trans everyone against these bathroom laws. There are lots and lots of people who soak up all the babble about predators and etc etc. I know I do not do hardly as much as some, but I felt very good about what I did do. I also went against the grain of many people that I know in my area, who feel and believe that trans anyone should not be in a bathroom that is opposite their physical gender.

[Saikotsu]

I am going to reference you to the sticky about definitions; Your thinking not only is wrong, it divides us into smaller marginalized parts. Now let's ask the question "How in real life, do you tell a crossdresser from a TS (NOt transgender they are all in that boat?) You see your OWN prejudices are showing. You make an assumption before you know any facts. The articles posted were after tyhe facts hd been established, these me were criminals, perverts who used the guise to get what they wanted.

I'd like to point out that Lisa said they were posting the definitions from GLAAD to demonstrate how it can be a source of confusion in this issue.

To your other point, Lorileah, I agree. I think it's important to take on an educator role in this sort of thing. People fear the unknown. So long as we aren't known, we WILL be feared. But if we can educate people, show them that we have much more in common than not, maybe people won't fear us as much. There will always be people who won't try to meet us halfway. Who will hate us. Just as there will always be sickos victimizing others. We can't educate everybody, and we can't stop all the criminals. But we can make a difference if we try. If not us, then who?

[Lauri K]

:hd: Embarrassed by the lack of unity / consensus on this serious human rights issue, starting to look like the keystone cops here.

[flatlander_48]

The point I am making about the quote is if we don't get OUR own language together, how in the hell can we communicate with those who aren't in our circle. All the infighting I get to see going on in this forum is frustrating. So many want to play the game but don't want to follow the rule.

THe "Rub" as you call it is that not one...no one...in this community stood up to the media or the police and said "Listen...don't lump us with them, they are not US." Again, a bank robber isn't always blue collar low paid worker. Every minority had a hill like this to climb. How did they? They educated and informed. WE don't we hide. (excluding thos who cannot hide). There's the rub, we are not self supporting, we are in fact self destructive. Not caring is as bad as promoting wrong.

Stand up

L:

I'm glad you said this; all of it. Reason being, because when I have, it is followed by a half dozen folks jumping on me saying that I don't know what I'm talking about. The point is that one does not need to transition in order to see this. There seems to be this prevailing opinion that all that humans have learned in the past 100 years or so regarding rights movements and social change somehow does not apply here. Well, guess what...

It's funny. On aggregate, this is an exceedingly intelligent community. Sadly, it is also true that we suffer from some awfully powerful tunnel vision.

WE CAN DO BETTER.

DeeAnn

[bimini1]

The president of the Georgia Chapter of the ACLU has resigned in protest of the chapter's challenging of the NC law. Says the group's move smacks of special interest pandering and goes on to talk about her young daughters encountering 3 "transgenders" over 6 feet tall with deep voices in a bathroom where her daughters were visibly upset and frightened.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2016/06...sgender-fight/