Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.Originally Posted by Lorileah
Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Yay for the bathroom bills, which are likely to cause more and more of this type of reaction. It is the intention of these bills I believe, to create a more unfriendly environment. Not saying it wouldn't have or hasn't happened in the past, but it will be and has shown to be on a quick rise.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
I posted a while ago about waiting outside a "pay to pee" public toilet while enfemme. You know, the sort with the sliding door. In front of me was a mom with her young daughter fumbling in her purse for the right change. Anyway I had spare so I offered her the correct coinage, she offered what coins she had but I refused saying I knew what it was like when your kids need to go.
She looked at her little girl and said, " Thank the nice lady for being so kind". The little girl was a bit bemused looking at me but it does go to prove that there are decent people out there.
Who dares wears Get in, get out without being noticed
Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.
The people who don't want us in bathrooms are only going to be satisfied if we are completely invisible, from the day we first present as women to the day we die. That is not a fair standard - few of us would make it. (Some of them won't be satisfied with that - they really do want us to not exist at all.)
@nothingclever - some use feminism, 2nd wave radical feminism specifically, to justify bigotry against us. Just FYI.
Now what if she asked that to a real female, one that was born female? How would they suddenly react to being ask that question? And since GG's are already being questioned and being forced out of a woman's restrooms, it's probably already happening. And in a time when even females are not conforming to what many call a typical female.
I would have said, "Yes I am. And you?", smiled, turned, and left.
On the idea that females don't conform, I find this hard to believe. Walk into any busy mall, any busy airport, train station, etc, where there are thousands of females and you might find fewer than 5 whom you cannot tell are female ... and these would be the few women who make a concerted effort to look butch, but even then it is apparent to most of us that they are indeed female. If members here find it difficult to gender people, then I wonder if they might not have the ability to look at people like the rest of us.
Reine
Snarky comment about not being able to gender women correctly aside, no, there aren't very many cisgender women who have trouble passing - but there are some. There aren't very many of us either though, passing or not:
1. Women with serious PCOS - some of them are fairly masculinized with significant facial hair.
2. Breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies and don't use prosthetics
3. Androgynous women whose slender bodies and short haircuts aren't really butch, but people question them, especially if they are tall
4. Taller women - there are girls who are taller than 6' 2". I watched one get accused of being trans at a city council meeting. She wasn't trans though.
5. Intersex women - there are conditions that can leave women somewhat masculinized.
6. Butch lesbians - or simply masculine straight women.
There are other examples, and I'm not saying that I have trouble telling the difference - I'm talking about people who really don't understand what trans people are, what we look like, and how to spot us, when you can actually spot us. I think that neither I, nor any of the members of the forum are likely to point out someone who might not pass in a women's room. I mean, c'mon.
Basically, if you set the standard for what a woman should look like to be whatever some random person thinks a woman looks like, you are going to have problems, because some small percentage of cisgender women are going to get called out by some people. It is probably more likely to happen if said people have been whipped up to where they see a trans person in every bathroom stall because of a witch hunt.
The vast majority of women will basically pass all the time, without issue. But there have already been reported cases where cisgender women are misidentified as trans when they are in a restroom, or other public place. I can post links, if that's necessary, but these things aren't hard to find, and while they may be rare, they happen, and they spotlight the danger of sending out peasants with torches.
I do apologize if my comment was misconstrued to be about all women, or even any of the cisgender women on this forum. I haven't seen any photos here that I thought would ever be at risk of this. But it has happened at least a couple of times around Dallas, and in some other places as well. I'm sure more of them happen than are reported, because I can't imagine how mortifying that must be - to be accused of not being a woman. Oh wait a second, I actually *do* know what that's like! Anyway, it sucks. I personally think that some poor woman with a hormonal condition doesn't deserve the grief I get. Heck, I don't think *I* deserve the grief I get, but it just breaks my heart for unlucky cisgender women who face this once in a while. I do really mean that sincerely, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but it really does happen to some women, and I think it's just horrible. Random bathroom occupants need to stop acting as the "potty police".
Is the reason to argue about this? Surely if we can agree that cisgender women shouldn't have to worry about the humiliation of getting called out as being trans in a restroom because they have an unusual appearance for reasons that may be totally beyond their control, and because the person calling them out is an idiot? Seriously, I can post links if you don't believe this is a thing that can happen!
Last edited by PaulaQ; 06-07-2016 at 07:04 PM.
I'm just glad the UK isn't wasting their time on bathroom issues, we have far too much trivial nonsense to contend with from the EU !
In many parts of Europe they use the same bathroom/toilet, I find it disconcerting standing at the open urinals with women and children walking by .
One aspect I can't get use to is women cleaning male toilets, I was standing in an open male urinal when suddenly a mop was brushed against my feet, I turned to find a young woman busily cleaning the floor, it felt totally wrong , I felt like a flasher and quickly zipped up and left .
Maybe a GG can tell us if they've seen a male cleaner in female toilets .
I have to agree with the reply that the lady who made the remark may have been protective of the child, taking the point further she may have been well within her rights if the child had been approached by a stranger previously. We should look for other possibilities when people apparently overreact .
Fetishist? lol
I might be offended save that the remark betrays an ignorance to be pitied.
Last edited by samantha rogers; 06-08-2016 at 02:24 PM.
Every fear that held me back, when faced, has proven to be hollow.
Courage is not the lack of fear, but the willingness to ignore it.
It's your life. Make it count.
In my view, there are two parts to this.
1) The part where somebody challenges your right to be in a space (leering, staring, saying things, etc.)
2) The part where the situation resolves (nothing happens, somebody is ejected, taken to jail, etc.)
I view the first part as a social issue that will take time, no matter what legislation we pass, and so I see it - for the moment - as immutable.
The question then, is who has the RIGHT to be in women's spaces? Meaning, when part 2 comes to involve some kind of authority, what ends up happening and why. I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected.
I also think that CDs will benefit from this, because as you say, it's hard to tell the difference in many cases. When there's a perfectly reasonable and verifiable situation that explains a situation, law enforcement are that much less likely to care, and other people are (over time) less likely to assume the worst.
If somebody tells me they're "gender fluid", "bi-gender", or anything else that ultimately gives them some claim to womanhood, I'll simply say that I don't get it and have my doubts, but I'm not going to fight them on it if we have some sort of standard (e.g. medical/psychiatric approval). If they are a person who clearly and definitively (and often defensively) identifies as a man, however, I'm not going to say that they should have the right to access the women's facilities. I have a rather expanded view on what can constitute being a woman, but I also believe that being a man is, in the majority of cases, a mutually exclusive condition.
I have no problem, for the most part, with CD men getting away with it most or all of the time, but that's different from having the right. If they want to start telling me they're not really men, then there's a conversation to be had.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
I want to reply to everyone who has quoted me and I have a lot to say. Some of you need serious reality checks, I would love to hand them out too believe me. I won't bother to write or explain why I won't reply because I don't think I'm allowed to, and it's not like what I say will actually be considered anyway so there's little to no point.
Eva Bella, while I understand your sentiment it's worth pointing out that RuPaul identifies as a gay man, and despite what you might assume, he's not actually much of a friend to the transgender community.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Huh, well I'm honestly not so sure about that. I know that there was a flare up over his use of the word "Tranny," and I could see how some might take offense that he trivializes the idea of transgender people. I can only speak for myself on this, but I'm personally grateful for people like him and Caitlin Jenner. They are high-visibility celebrities who - I feel - make great strides in normalizing our community. Bruce Jenner became a woman and the world didn't end. RuPaul's show is extremely popular, fun, and light hearted.
And at least in my neck of the woods, most of us are using the word "Tranny" to describe each other, as a sort of term of endearment. Just like RuPaul described.
Although I see how others would view him in a negative light, and I get that. I do believe that he would OWN that bathroom visit and be fierce and confident inside there. I definitely try to channel some of his attitude if I'm going into a new place or I'm feeling apprehensive.
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