"Are you a woman!"

[Pat]

expecting people to just adapt to and adopt this concept is like asking (demanding) them to perform backflips.

Some days I feel like I must be the oldest person on the planet. Does no one else remember the lingering resentment when segregation was set aside? It smoldered for years but people gradually got over it because it was in their best interests to get over it and now the very idea of segregation sets people's teeth on edge. This isn't a back-flip -- this is just something that needs some time to become the new normal. TG people aren't "men in the women's room" they're TG people in the women's room (where they belong.)

[nothingclever]

The woman was just a jerk who is teaching her daughter to be the same. I highly doubt seeing a person washing their hands in a public restroom created a threatening environment. If I had found myself in that situation when my daughters were toddlers, my biggest fear would have been that one of my them would have realized that the person was male and would have blurted something out....I still feel horrible about the time my youngest saw a dwarf in a grocery store....
I strongly disagree that this woman was protecting her child. I think she sounds like a person who will take any opportunity she can get to make other people feel uncomfortable and justify her behavior to anyone who will listen under a veil of morality, religion, popular opinion among her peers, etc....
I think you did the right thing. The exact right thing. You didn't give her the satisfaction of a big scene. Which I would bet money was what she wanted.

[PaulaQ]

Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.

Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.

The people who don't want us in bathrooms are only going to be satisfied if we are completely invisible, from the day we first present as women to the day we die. That is not a fair standard - few of us would make it. (Some of them won't be satisfied with that - they really do want us to not exist at all.)

@nothingclever - some use feminism, 2nd wave radical feminism specifically, to justify bigotry against us. Just FYI.

[tbryant2k16]

Now what if she asked that to a real female, one that was born female? How would they suddenly react to being ask that question? And since GG's are already being questioned and being forced out of a woman's restrooms, it's probably already happening. And in a time when even females are not conforming to what many call a typical female.

[ReineD]

I would have said, "Yes I am. And you?", smiled, turned, and left.

On the idea that females don't conform, I find this hard to believe. Walk into any busy mall, any busy airport, train station, etc, where there are thousands of females and you might find fewer than 5 whom you cannot tell are female ... and these would be the few women who make a concerted effort to look butch, but even then it is apparent to most of us that they are indeed female. If members here find it difficult to gender people, then I wonder if they might not have the ability to look at people like the rest of us.

[Zooey]

Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.

In my view, there are two parts to this.

1) The part where somebody challenges your right to be in a space (leering, staring, saying things, etc.)
2) The part where the situation resolves (nothing happens, somebody is ejected, taken to jail, etc.)

I view the first part as a social issue that will take time, no matter what legislation we pass, and so I see it - for the moment - as immutable.

The question then, is who has the RIGHT to be in women's spaces? Meaning, when part 2 comes to involve some kind of authority, what ends up happening and why. I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected.

I also think that CDs will benefit from this, because as you say, it's hard to tell the difference in many cases. When there's a perfectly reasonable and verifiable situation that explains a situation, law enforcement are that much less likely to care, and other people are (over time) less likely to assume the worst.

If somebody tells me they're "gender fluid", "bi-gender", or anything else that ultimately gives them some claim to womanhood, I'll simply say that I don't get it and have my doubts, but I'm not going to fight them on it if we have some sort of standard (e.g. medical/psychiatric approval). If they are a person who clearly and definitively (and often defensively) identifies as a man, however, I'm not going to say that they should have the right to access the women's facilities. I have a rather expanded view on what can constitute being a woman, but I also believe that being a man is, in the majority of cases, a mutually exclusive condition.

I have no problem, for the most part, with CD men getting away with it most or all of the time, but that's different from having the right. If they want to start telling me they're not really men, then there's a conversation to be had.

[gabyespinotv]

If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.

[PaulaQ]

Walk into any busy mall, any busy airport, train station, etc, where there are thousands of females and you might find fewer than 5 whom you cannot tell are female ... and these would be the few women who make a concerted effort to look butch, but even then it is apparent to most of us that they are indeed female.

Snarky comment about not being able to gender women correctly aside, no, there aren't very many cisgender women who have trouble passing - but there are some. There aren't very many of us either though, passing or not:
1. Women with serious PCOS - some of them are fairly masculinized with significant facial hair.
2. Breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies and don't use prosthetics
3. Androgynous women whose slender bodies and short haircuts aren't really butch, but people question them, especially if they are tall
4. Taller women - there are girls who are taller than 6' 2". I watched one get accused of being trans at a city council meeting. She wasn't trans though.
5. Intersex women - there are conditions that can leave women somewhat masculinized.
6. Butch lesbians - or simply masculine straight women.

There are other examples, and I'm not saying that I have trouble telling the difference - I'm talking about people who really don't understand what trans people are, what we look like, and how to spot us, when you can actually spot us. I think that neither I, nor any of the members of the forum are likely to point out someone who might not pass in a women's room. I mean, c'mon.

Basically, if you set the standard for what a woman should look like to be whatever some random person thinks a woman looks like, you are going to have problems, because some small percentage of cisgender women are going to get called out by some people. It is probably more likely to happen if said people have been whipped up to where they see a trans person in every bathroom stall because of a witch hunt.

The vast majority of women will basically pass all the time, without issue. But there have already been reported cases where cisgender women are misidentified as trans when they are in a restroom, or other public place. I can post links, if that's necessary, but these things aren't hard to find, and while they may be rare, they happen, and they spotlight the danger of sending out peasants with torches.

I do apologize if my comment was misconstrued to be about all women, or even any of the cisgender women on this forum. I haven't seen any photos here that I thought would ever be at risk of this. But it has happened at least a couple of times around Dallas, and in some other places as well. I'm sure more of them happen than are reported, because I can't imagine how mortifying that must be - to be accused of not being a woman. Oh wait a second, I actually *do* know what that's like! Anyway, it sucks. I personally think that some poor woman with a hormonal condition doesn't deserve the grief I get. Heck, I don't think *I* deserve the grief I get, but it just breaks my heart for unlucky cisgender women who face this once in a while. I do really mean that sincerely, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but it really does happen to some women, and I think it's just horrible. Random bathroom occupants need to stop acting as the "potty police".

Is the reason to argue about this? Surely if we can agree that cisgender women shouldn't have to worry about the humiliation of getting called out as being trans in a restroom because they have an unusual appearance for reasons that may be totally beyond their control, and because the person calling them out is an idiot? Seriously, I can post links if you don't believe this is a thing that can happen!

[Teresa]

I'm just glad the UK isn't wasting their time on bathroom issues, we have far too much trivial nonsense to contend with from the EU !

In many parts of Europe they use the same bathroom/toilet, I find it disconcerting standing at the open urinals with women and children walking by .

One aspect I can't get use to is women cleaning male toilets, I was standing in an open male urinal when suddenly a mop was brushed against my feet, I turned to find a young woman busily cleaning the floor, it felt totally wrong , I felt like a flasher and quickly zipped up and left .

Maybe a GG can tell us if they've seen a male cleaner in female toilets .

I have to agree with the reply that the lady who made the remark may have been protective of the child, taking the point further she may have been well within her rights if the child had been approached by a stranger previously. We should look for other possibilities when people apparently overreact .

[tbryant2k16]

nicely handled in a no win situation.

A few years ago I was shopping and had some morbidly obese slovenly woman announce in a loud voice "hey mister you're in the ladies section, you need to be in the faggots section"
I froze, an elderly nicely dress lady said "Excuse me, but if this is the ladies section, there isn't anything here for you" she had a voice and accent that should be italicized.
she smiled to me, the largish lady ran for it.
angels show up every now and then

Now if a man told a woman that when she was in the Men's section, the man would probably have a black eye and charged with causing a disturbance some how.

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Snarky comment about not being able to gender women correctly aside, no, there aren't very many cisgender women who have trouble passing - but there are some. There aren't very many of us either though, passing or not:
1. Women with serious PCOS - some of them are fairly masculinized with significant facial hair.
2. Breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies and don't use prosthetics
3. Androgynous women whose slender bodies and short haircuts aren't really butch, but people question them, especially if they are tall
4. Taller women - there are girls who are taller than 6' 2". I watched one get accused of being trans at a city council meeting. She wasn't trans though.
5. Intersex women - there are conditions that can leave women somewhat masculinized.
6. Butch lesbians - or simply masculine straight women.

There are other examples, and I'm not saying that I have trouble telling the difference - I'm talking about people who really don't understand what trans people are, what we look like, and how to spot us, when you can actually spot us. I think that neither I, nor any of the members of the forum are likely to point out someone who might not pass in a women's room. I mean, c'mon.

Basically, if you set the standard for what a woman should look like to be whatever some random person thinks a woman looks like, you are going to have problems, because some small percentage of cisgender women are going to get called out by some people. It is probably more likely to happen if said people have been whipped up to where they see a trans person in every bathroom stall because of a witch hunt.

The vast majority of women will basically pass all the time, without issue. But there have already been reported cases where cisgender women are misidentified as trans when they are in a restroom, or other public place. I can post links, if that's necessary, but these things aren't hard to find, and while they may be rare, they happen, and they spotlight the danger of sending out peasants with torches.

I do apologize if my comment was misconstrued to be about all women, or even any of the cisgender women on this forum. I haven't seen any photos here that I thought would ever be at risk of this. But it has happened at least a couple of times around Dallas, and in some other places as well. I'm sure more of them happen than are reported, because I can't imagine how mortifying that must be - to be accused of not being a woman. Oh wait a second, I actually *do* know what that's like! Anyway, it sucks. I personally think that some poor woman with a hormonal condition doesn't deserve the grief I get. Heck, I don't think *I* deserve the grief I get, but it just breaks my heart for unlucky cisgender women who face this once in a while. I do really mean that sincerely, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but it really does happen to some women, and I think it's just horrible. Random bathroom occupants need to stop acting as the "potty police".

Is the reason to argue about this? Surely if we can agree that cisgender women shouldn't have to worry about the humiliation of getting called out as being trans in a restroom because they have an unusual appearance for reasons that may be totally beyond their control, and because the person calling them out is an idiot? Seriously, I can post links if you don't believe this is a thing that can happen!

That's the thing, there is no standard for what a female looks like. But now people are starting to say unless you look a certain way according to them they will question you and even go as far as call the police on you. And there are lot's of cisgender women that you hear of now being question as if they are transgender.

[nothingclever]

Seriously, using a restroom to urinate and then wash and dry your hands, interacting with no one else, does not warrant a demand to know someone's gender. If the CDer in question is presenting as a female, is behaving like a sane and, thankfully hygienic, person there is no reason to fear for your child's life. I don't know this person, but her behavior is incongruent with someone concerned with her daughter's safety. If she truly were concerned, why would she initiate a confrontation with someone minding their own business? If the CDer were acting hostile or doing something suspicious, that argument would make a lot more sense. Righteous indignation is not an excuse for rudeness.

[Vickie_CDTV]

You did the right thing, worst thing you could have done is respond to her.

Children in the ladies room is a minefield. If there are children (including teenagers), I won't use it, personally. I'd rather use the men's room and get a few humorous looks than deal with an angry mom with her claws out.

[wanda66]

You use the toilet in the privacy of a stall what is the problem ...are we that special or should I say politically correct .
it's no more than a lot of BS about nothing, we have many other more important things to worry about other than where we pee !

[nothingclever]

I think people are overestimating the average woman's fear of trans people. And again, if this woman were truly protecting her young daughter, why would she INSTIGATE a confrontation with someone who was clearly minding their own business? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Jenniferathome]

...I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected....

Zooey, you are suggesting a fantasy world. We, here, will all be long dead before something like this would happen, BUT... let's pretend this was a thing that was real. By the time the pee police show up, everyone is long gone. It's simply impractical. Unisex restrooms will happen long before "Pee IDs."

Right. Statistics. Most people won't bother with you but a few will. Just be careful not to take "the few" and translate them in your mind to "everybody"...

THIS!!!!

If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.

No question you would know from stupid. And you are demonstrating yours profoundly. Just FYI, if cross dressing is a fetish for you fine. It is not for most.

[Alexa CD]

I don't really understand why people have to use the bathroom while out in town or wherever in the first place. I never do even if I'm out for hours, just go before you leave home, or find a unisex bathroom, a disabled bathroom or a family one, it's not hard, there should be no issue.

I find this whole debate is incredibly selfish and self centred at the expense of others. People need to stop creating this issue by demanding things from other people like this, it's not the same as ending segregation. Alot of the time it's straight men with wives and kids who want to use the women's bathroom, that is absurd. People just need to get over themselves. If all the regular people just want to get on with there lives and don't want genetically male people in the women's bathroom with them or their kids or their little sister or whoever just respect that. You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

[PaulaQ]

BUT... let's pretend this was a thing that was real. By the time the pee police show up, everyone is long gone. It's simply impractical. Unisex restrooms will happen long before "Pee IDs."

Historically this hasn't been true. Everybody in the trans community I knew in Oklahoma had been harassed by law enforcement in a bathroom. Here's an example - you stop at a truck stop bathroom. State trooper sees you walk in, and goes in after you to check your ID. Sometimes the police stop in for a bathroom break.

The bigger issue is people taking the law into their hands.

Honestly, anyone with a driver's license with the correct photo and gender marker would get a pass from a LEO - no probable cause to take them in, ticket them, etc. What they are more likely to try instead of a pee ID is to make gender marker / ID changes more difficult in some states.

Honestly any kind of documentation check for restroom access is a big loss for us all.

You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

I know trans kids who aren't able to use the restroom all day in school because the only gender neutral restroom is so far from their classes that they don't have time to use it.

I have a friend who drives a truck. She's out 12-13 hours at a stretch, several days in a row. Not everyplace she stops has a gender neutral bathroom. What's she supposed to do?

Not every place I go has a gender neutral bathroom. Sometimes I'm out all day, and not all of us have your bladder capacity.

How is it selfish to want a safe place to pee? Do I look like I should be using the men's restroom?

I think it is pretty selfish for cisgender people to put their discomfort and bigotry ahead of our ability to have a tiny modicum of public dignity.

[ChristinaK]

I just wanted to clarify a few things.

1. I was on a long trip, am middle aged with a small bladder. No choice on using a bathroom unless I go in a bottle (not).
2. Even if a person is a CD versus TG, using the men's room in the US would be dangerous beyond belief in most locales.
3. I could not avoid the woman as I had already waited before exiting the stall until the woman's friend left to leave after a conversation they had at length about drinking the night before and how one had sneaked rye into her husbands beer to make him pass out so she could have fun without him.
4. I totally understand how a woman would be freaked out and afraid upon discovering some weird dude is dressed as a woman exiting a stall. I just don't want to be the subject of that anxiety and would hope that the woman in question would have the circumspection to wait and see what transpired with the TG, such as washing her hands and leaving like any other woman.
5. Regardless of the law, muggles will not understand. It is beyond most peoples imaginations to consider us equals, to wit, my sister wishing a TG to be dead rather than be subjected to looking at her.
6. In my lifetime, we will always be at risk simply needing to use the frikkin bathroom, whether we have the balls to use the men's room, or try to pass in the women's.
7. I don't judge muggles for the way they feel, it is a natural inclination. We have to accept that we run against the natural grain of society and the burden is on us, not society, to deal with the possible consequences.

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I forgot. One person said they do not use the ladies room if there are little girls or teenagers present. How do you know until you open the door and walk in?

2 weeks ago I was presented with that dilemma when I entered to find a line, with 2 teenagers in front of me with Momma in front of them. To turn and walk out would have been suspicious. I was scared, but nothing at all happened. Sometimes we cannot control events, they develop.

[PaulaQ]

We have to accept that we run against the natural grain of society and the burden is on us, not society, to deal with the possible consequences.

Why should we accept this? We are the victims of a cruel and abusive society. Why should we be expected to deal with it - more to the point how could that even work. Why then should we expect any rights at all, and simply accept that they don't like us, don't really think of us as human beings, and that they could murder us on sight if they are so inclined? Why expect anything from them?

No advances in civil rights have ever come from the minority group "dealing with it," is accepting the status quo.

[ChristinaK]

Paula, I do not disagree with the fight, I just pointed out that we run contrary to most people's basic instincts regarding gender identity. We may win court cases, we may establish laws, but we cannot change people's base, internal paradigms regarding what is normal and what is not.

I hope I am proved wrong :-)

[gabyespinotv]

Actually jeniffer..crossdressing IS a fetish. Unless you are a transgendered person with a female body chemistry, you're just a dude who wear panties and dresses because your brain likes it. Lie to yourself as much as you want to, but what i'm saying is a fact.

[Zooey]

Honestly, anyone with a driver's license with the correct photo and gender marker would get a pass from a LEO - no probable cause to take them in, ticket them, etc. What they are more likely to try instead of a pee ID is to make gender marker / ID changes more difficult in some states. Honestly any kind of documentation check for restroom access is a big loss for us all.

I agree with much of that, which is why I think the more productive battle is pushing for a federal ruling that standardizes government-recognized gender changes and the requirements of them. If every state applied the SSA/passport requirements, or accepted an updated passport as ample proof for documentation changes, we would be (IMO) in a pretty reasonable place.

How is it selfish to want a safe place to pee? Do I look like I should be using the men's restroom?.

No, you don't. But even if you did, you're a woman, and so you should be in the women's room. I'm talking about male-identified people. They're men, by way of self-identification.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. I am WAY MORE COMFORTABLE with eliminating gendered restrooms than I am with legislating the rights of men to access women's spaces. Sign me up for the gender neutral bathrooms battle, but I'm not interested in dismantling the value of gender and gender-segregated spaces as a rule.

[PaulaQ]

@Zoey - yes, I understand what you mean about gendered restrooms. Although no one talks about it yet, non-binary people / GNC people may not feel comfortable in either restroom.

I am not a fan of gender segregated spaces, but there are situations where they are needed. I think locker rooms are a particularly difficult area. I can't imagine using a public locker room / shower pre-op. I used to have nightmares about that. My suspicion is that before trans people and cis people are going to be comfortable sharing such a space, in general, some structural changes would have to be added for privacy.

[Marcelle]

Sorry I don't want to derail this thread but I have to speak to this silly comment . . .

. . . You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

Seriously????

So when the majority decides it's okay to discriminate against trans folk, deny them employment, a place to live the right to be who they are I as a trans woman should just suck it up. If I don't I am being self centered at the expense of this hard done by majority. :facepalm:

Try living this 24/7 and then come and talk to me about sucking it up, being self centered and whatnot.

Marcelle

[jessica33]

I would have skipped washing my hands.

I've been using the ladies room for over 40 years. Never liked to have to do it, but that's the way it is. I'm more averse to it now than I've ever been! I think people are looking for us and I think everybody has a prepared response. It's not only in the restroom. I certainly get the vibe that people are looking for us, and I think people are looking closer. There was a time when people would have had a brief encounter with me and not known how to react until the encounter was long over with. Now they already know how they're going to react and are itching for the opportunity to use their prepared reaction.

You are right about people are looking for us and ready to use their prepared reaction . With transgender issue in the news these days , specially the bathroom issue. people are more aware of us then before . My gut feelings is people are less tolerance of us then few years ago .