Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Stephanie47]

If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?

You answered (#25) that I posed (#24) as to the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I believe you (?) or some believe gender identity, whether it be female or male, must be felt 100% of the time. Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? OK, at Halloween as a goof. But, we're not discussing Halloween. Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. Me? Until I read about underdressing on this site, I never tried it. I decided to give it a whirl. I donned a bra, camisole, panty and hosiery and went about my day shopping. I forgot I had female clothing on until I felt the binding of the bra. What a waste! No thrill at all. What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing.

I've stated numerous times on the site, when my wife asked why I do what I do, I told her I do not know why I like to wear women's clothing. As a man it makes absolutely no sense. To chance scorn; ridicule; loss of friends, family, employment; everything...why?

I understand there are women who are "trapped" in a male body....the wrong body. And, there are men who are trapped in a female body. Me? I'm comfortable in my maleness. So, the dress? I have some thoughts about it. My wife has some thoughts about it. I've voiced it some times on the site. I think I got one denial to believe the possibility because it flew in the face of that person's religious belief. Or at least western Christian belief....which includes the teachings I was raised with.

I feel comfortable at times wearing a dress and everything else. It's more than just comfort. There is a necessity. Yes, there is stress relief brought on because there is something in my inner self that arises for some reason to break away from my maleness. I bet you cannot understand it because you are a woman trapped in a man's body and you feel discomfort about it. It's mismatch. Cannot it be that I do not have a total mismatch?

I have ventured out sometimes attired as Stephanie. Would I venture into places society has designated for women attired as a woman? No. Why? Because Stephanie seems to arise to alleviate stress, and, tempting fate in a women's room just is counter to why Stephanie arises in me. Just like underdressing, venturing out appearing as a woman is overrated for me. I'll just stay home. I do not ascribe to the proposal that I am truly a woman in self denial.

The legislature in the State of Washington has toyed with this idea of gender expression and gender identity. My right to use the ladies' room and ladies' locker room is addressed in the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) at RCW 162-32-060(1) through (4). It states as relates to "gender-segregated facilities" a person may use which ever fits his or her "gender identity" or "gender expression."

I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

[Amy Fakley]

oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

So, since we are actually talking about public facilities, let's get real for a minute.
Why do I feel entitled to use the public facilities reserved for women when I am dressed as one?

My female presentation entitles me to it, the same as it does for anyone else presenting female. That is what these facilities are for, they are PUBLIC facilities for use of female members of the public. When I am out in public in girl mode, I am a woman in as much as that all the ways I am technically, biologically not a woman are nobody's damn business but mine.

A point I made recently in another thread, bears repeating. The social convention of having gender separated public facilities is to protect the user from the public, NOT to protect the public from the user. The pictogram on the door with the lady wearing a dress should mean nothing more than "if you look like a woman, this is the safest place for you to pee and you're welcome here".

indeed, that's all it did mean until recently and everyone was ok with that.

[Suzanne F]

Ok I was waiting for this response. I expect everyone of my cross dresser friends to stand up to this Shadeow comment. After everything I have faced I will not be told I am not a real woman. The stares, the lost friends and family, the coming out at work, the risk of losing my cherished wife, the countless hours of pain of hair removal, the sheer terror of traveling in the south, the pain of physical procedures you can't even contemplate and then someone has the nerve to say that. I have laid it all on the line to claim my womanhood and I will be damn if someone will say this. We can disagree about lots of things here but my womanhood is non negotiable because I have paid for it in ways you will never know!
Suzanne

[IamWren]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.

Zooey, I appreciate your well thought out & defined response. Thank you.

I've been following this thread earnestly. It's extremely interesting and quite frankly it is one of those that is helping me learn more about myself. The logic, the reasoning, the examples and analogy are great but what Shaedow said...

that's not nice Shaedow. Not nice at all.
Zooey's response was one that was filled with much more Grace than I think could have mustered and I applaud her for that.

There has been so much said in response to the original post that I'm not sure I can intelligently add much value. Just wanted to be one of those CDers who would stand up to that comment. However it seems as though they have made nice.

Please carry on so that I might learn more.
Hugs,
Sayyidah