Why is it so hard to "pass"?

[AttentiveHusband]

I'm very very new to this (just experimenting a little with underdressing). A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female. Is the hard part how you carry yourself, act, speak, etc? Or is there give-aways in the face even with makeup?

[Linda E. Woodworth]

It's the "whole" package.

With the right wig, clothes and makeup you can physically pass but this IS NOT as easy as you make it sound. Just think of all the genetic women (GG) who do a pathetic job at their makeup, clothing choices or taking care of their hair.

Now comes the even harder part of moving, talking and acting as a woman. Men and women are very different physiologically. You have to go against a lifetime of habits and relearn how to move while doing everyday tasks. Then you have to NEVER fall out of character while dressed. Oh, and if you're in the closet you have to be able to turn this one and off with the flip of a mental switch or you'll out yourself one way or the other.

However; be that as it may it doesn't stop any of us from still trying. Perfection in our feminine appearance may be unobtainable but it still remains the goal for many of us. Myself included.

Good Luck

[Lisa Gerrie]

Looking female in 2 dimensions (mirrors, photos) is the easiest part. Adding the 3rd dimension is harder, and the 4th dimension (time: movement, behavior) is even harder. Not to mention obstacles like voice, physical features like an Adam's Apple...

[barbie lanai]

I have worn high heels when ever I could since a kid. Thought the heels made me walk like a woman. That is, until I had the idea of video taping myself in them. Just a clod in heels. It is hard to pass, at least for me.

[BrendaPDX]

You have some great answers very early in this thread. I can't state it as well but I will give it a try. We are men. We are physically built differently and most of the time psychologically different. I can get clocked just stepping out of the car, it is how I carry myself and my attitude toward the outside world. I can pass in a photo (OK sometimes) but not so well in the wild. There is so much more than clothes, makeup, hair/wig, hose, shoes and how we walk in them; it is how we present yourself to the outside world and how we see ourselves that makes the difference to me. Don't let me dissuade you from trying; trying is half the fun, perfecting the nuances, changing your attitude, how you hold your hands when walking, too much to mention. Oh like others will tell you get a camera that you can use to take videos of yourself, it is surprising to see yourself through different eyes. These are such fun and enlightening times for you, enjoy them. Brenda

[Heidi Stevens]

It is, as Mich Salem pointed out, multi dimensional. I have made permanent body changes to help me present as a woman. I am on prescribed hormones after a round of psychotherapy to confirm I was transgender. I had my beard lasered off to remove my shadow. I’ve taken several classes on how to present and dress as a lady. I’ve had professional help for clothing and wigs. Getting an attitude of who you are and the confidence to present it is just as important as anything else. I’ve done everything short of going full time, I have done everything you can do to pass as a woman. And still I can get “clocked”! Even Transgender ladies that have had complete sexual reassignment surgery can have problems passing.

It’s a total package thing. You may take a good picture, but bringing that character into public is a whole new world.

[Krisi]

You have gotten good responses so far. I would just ad that for some of us, it's easier than for others. If you are short with a slight build and small hands and feet, you have a far better chance of pulling it of than if you are built like Hulk Hogan.

Then again, you have to define "passing". Walking down the street or through the mall without drawing attention to yourself is one thing while sitting in a bar and having guys buy you drinks and dancing with you is quite another. There are males who an pull it off but it's quite rare and they have devoted their lives to it.

[Robertacd]

Why is it so hard to pass, you ask? Have you ever looked in a mirror? Have you ever looked at the physical differences between male and female humans?

[Sara Jessica]

^^^ Exactly!

Before mastering things like walk, grace, decorum, etc, you have to honestly assess how you compare from a physical standpoint.


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size
arm length
shoulder width
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose)
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig)
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required)
hips, or lack thereof
tush, or lack thereof
legs
feet size
height
frame
weight

Did I miss any?

This is why it is so difficult to catch that unicorn known as passing. It is also the reason why aspiring to achieve the intangibles such as grace is important to help us get by that first, second or even third glance before it becomes evident as to who/what we are.

[rachael.davis]

Lack of full commitment to femininity - I got a brilliant critique from my GG big sister over the summer, I'm not trying to move "like a man", speak "like a man" etc - even when presenting as male.
Scariest decision I've made so far

[Tracii G]

Attentive Husband you got some great answers so far.
There is so much more to passing than you can imagine.
It is the whole package concept and very few of us have everything.
So I challenge you put on a wig some make up and womens clothes and take some pics of yourself and see if you pass.

[Sarah Doepner]

I've found the best results are found when I'm around people who are totally distracted by other things in their lives and not paying attention to me. That situation and my best efforts at creating a physical and social version of my female self often allows me to wander around not feeling like I'm in the spotlight.

Then on the other hand, I pass all the time as a man when that just may not be the case.

I'll try to just enjoy the ride since I can't seem to be myself regardless of who I'm offering to the world.

[Pat]

A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

Try it. Let us know how it goes.

[Barbara Jo]

There a difference in presenting as a male wearing female clothes as some sort of a costume... and being completely at ease wearing the clothes that females wear because you are so used to them and you really feel female
You must believe that they are the clothes etc that you are supposed to wear..
In other words, you have to be completely at ease wearing female clothes in public. It has to be second nature for you.

[Rachael Leigh]

Lots of great answers here but women have a lifetime of being women but we don’t have that advantage not to mention
the obvious physical differences that has been mentioned.
I for one who is all but fulltime know when I’m out I’m clocked most times but I do get treated like a women in many places
I hope that means at least my actions look female.
I try and learn everyday things that will help me pass better and it will take me a lot of time but I’m working on it
Rachael

[Sallee]

I wish I knew. I tend to pass pretty well most of the time but I fail in the walk for sure I have been called mam numerous times and even fooled the lady in a wig shop but when I see videos of me walking its a dead give away with or without heels and of course my voice can be a give away. I use to go to a bar up in the high desert which was a red neck bar in the country. There was CD who frequented it and passed real well but her voice was a give away. I remember the first time i heard her talk surprised because I had no idea she was a he.

[Meghan4now]

^^^ Exactly!

Before mastering things like walk, grace, decorum, etc, you have to honestly assess how you compare from a physical standpoint.


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size
arm length
shoulder width
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose)
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig)
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required)
hips, or lack thereof
tush, or lack thereof
legs
feet size
height
frame
weight

Did I miss any?

This is why it is so difficult to catch that unicorn known as passing. It is also the reason why aspiring to achieve the intangibles such as grace is important to help us get by that first, second or even third glance before it becomes evident as to who/what we are.

Good list, don't forget brow line and bossing, chin size, cheek bones, finger length, joint flex, hairy ears, waist size, torso length.

And then, as mentioned, motion related to physical differences and learned behavior, and top it off with VOICE :0

[Helen_Highwater]

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female.

That's just the start of the physical transformation. Add to that waistline, wider hips, more rounded rear, a bust. Then add really good makeup skills; I've seen GG's who without makeup are real plain Jane's. With the slap on they become eye catchingly attractive.

Even if you can get all the stars to align as others have said getting the mannerisms right takes both good observation and then practice and more practice. If you then get those thing right unless you're gifted with the right sort of facial bone structure you're still going to struggle to truly pass.

What 99.9% of us who do go out have come to realise is we can blend. Do a sufficiently good job at getting the package right that to the casual observer we're just a face in the crowd. So if you're thinking I'll only go out once I can 100% pass then welcome to the great indoors.

There's also one thing that goes beyond the physical, confidence. If you can interact with SA's, bus drivers, those serving at table, whoever, without being at all self conscious then you'll be able to mingle with the muggles and forget about passing.

[DIANEF]

All great and very true answers, though once at work I was taking in a stock delivery, said 'THANKS MATE' (in the English manner) and wow, if looks could kill. I'm a girl SHE said and stormed off. I genuinely thought it was a guy! Should add I didn't really look at her that closely which was my bad.

[Alice B]

What counts is your own attitude and not what you think others might say. The world is full of a wide variety of looks, so how you feel about yourself is all that matters

[Jayne44C]

I have always thought and still do think, that from the neck up I can pass with the right make up and wig. However the rest of the criteria is too much to overcome.


P = Pass F =Fail


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size P
arm length F
shoulder width F
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose) P
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig) F
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required) P
hips, or lack thereof P
tush, or lack thereof P
legs P
feet size F
height F
frame F
weight F

[ClosetED]

I can look like pretty woman from a distance and for a camera. But interacting with the real world, a 6'7" person with 5" heels will stand out as abnormal, unless traveling with the girl's basketball team. But is most of our desires to pass in society, or just to make ourselves feel happy with how we view ourselves?
Makeup does a good job creating illusions for men and women - both will have trouble close up. But as others said, there are so many other things. Women smile more. And decades of fine tuning of small behaviors from other females. I know of a book where they realized it was a TG person from the way they swung their legs into the car-together as a female is taught, not as the male the person appeared.
Hugs, Ellen

[docrobbysherry]

I would turn many of the posters here around and ask them this:

How many women have u seen that don't pass? I've read many threads here about how GG women, "----come in all shapes and sizes". So, why is it that masculinely dressed and/or appearing women still pass?

Altho I have seen a few women I thot may have been trans, I've met 100's of T's at events around the country. I can't recall even one, no matter how fem she looked, that could pass 100% of the time!

I did spend an evening with one in Thailand that was so perfect in every way I'm sure she could pass anywhere, any time! But, I haven't met any Thai T's over here and caucasians r built differently.

[Ceera]

Going off the list that Sara Jessica posted, there are things you can do to compensate, but some you just have to live with. Attitude has a lot to do with it. How do you think a cisgender female basketball player deals with being 'too tall'? Or a large-boned cisgender woman deals with her heavy set frame? A male body usually can't be altered enough to pass for a 'typical female - if your measure for that is the pretty, young women you see on TV and in the movies. But almost any male body is still within the possible parameters for a cisgender female.

"Tells", and what you can do about them:
hand size - compensate with nicely done nails, in a feminine shape. Learn to hold your hands in ways that minimize their visual size.
arm length - You're tall, so you have long arms. So what?
shoulder width - Unfortunate, but some women do have wider shoulders than hips. Careful choices of clothing can help, and so can padding your hips to make the bottom a closer match to the top.
facial structure - Not much you can do here, short of surgery. But a good wig and the makeup trick called 'contouring' can alter the perception of how your face is shaped.
hair - use a good wig.
hair (on your face) - Shave carefully and often. Carry a razor for mid-day touch-ups. Use makeup to conceal beard shadow. Electrolysis or laser treatment to remove the beard.
hips, or lack thereof - Use hip pads.
tush, or lack thereof - Use butt pads.
legs - Shave the legs, wear at least a moderate heel. Stay in good physical shape.
feet size - Unfortunate, but some women do have big feet, too. Buy suitable shoes. Higher heels make the feet look smaller.
height - Some women are tall. Live with it and own it.
frame - As with shoulder width, just keep in mind that some women have similar bone structure. Wear clothes that complement your good points and downplay the bad ones. For example, if you have a belly, wear blouses that are not tucked in.
weight - I know cisgender women who weigh a lot more than I do. Diet and exercise aren't a bad idea, regardless of presentation mode.

Not mentioned by Sara:

Voice - Low pitch and high resonance: Hard to pass if you have a deep bass voice and sound like a football player or truck driver. There are courses you can take for feminizing a male voice, and they DO work. Singing skills help.
Voice - Speech patterns: Women use different phrases and different ways of saying things than men do. Observe cisgender women and emulate their patterns.
Body movement patterns - Women walk and move differently than men do. Observe cisgender women and emulate their patterns.
Male package bump - Hard to pass for cisgender female if you have a big lump in your pants or under your skirt. Tuck and use a gaff to hide the 'boys'. Believe it or not, even a well-hung male can tuck with a thong gaff and get away with a bikini swimsuit. I have done it!

We have a lot of 'tells' to overcome. But for many of us, they can be overcome, with effort. For some, certainly, no amount of effort will suffice. Each individual has to assess their own situation. And the final decision may just be, "I don't care if I pass, I want to be feminine and dress in women's clothes, and that's that! Who cares what anyone else thinks?"

[Stephanie47]

Forgetting the male voice which is probably the strongest evidence of a male I think it comes down to a presentation of the "entire package." I am shot down early on based upon my male frame, i.e., height (6 foot) and weight (200 lbs). The minds eye is going to read "unusual, out of the ordinary. To stay under the radar it is better to be around the more common female height of five foot four to five foot seven. Yes, I do see many very tall women; five ten and above. The sheer height draws my attention.

Then it comes to the face. My mind identifies women with softer features. And, men with more angular features. My mind suggests a cross dresser to fly under the radar the best would be a five foot seven over weight body. Why? Generally, overweight women have rounder faces which would conceal more angular bone structure and conceal a pronounced Adam's Apple. Weight will also conceal the lack of indentation of the expected female form. I think it is a given the male eye is attracted to their ideal woman which is not an overweight short person. It's unfortunate women falling into that body type do not attract men as easily because they may be great people. Such is life. Before anyone jumps on that statement, it is also the same for short overweight men.

Poise, as in walking like a woman is another giveaway. Or the lack of it. I've watched many Youtube videos of cross dressing men. Many look terrific, but, their movement is not what I would expect of a woman. It's how the person is holding a purse. The stride. Maybe the stride is governed by hip and pelvic bone structure. It also can be how a woman holds a coffee cup. Or sits with legs crossed or uncrossed. These a learned behavior which become automatic, while a cross dressing man must consciously replicate them.

Makeup skills? Frankly a dynamite looking woman needs zero makeup. My wife has always been beautiful. Great eyes and smile. Totally no need for makeup at age 66.