Objectification

[MonicaPVD]

Hey girls, I was thinking about something and wanted to ask the hive for your thoughts. I have been dressing my whole life and only started going out in public over the past 18 months. I blend in well but my objective isn't to pass or be confused with a woman, just to enjoy myself. What I have found is that many CDers tend to become obsessed with the female form and, some would argue that we end up objectifying women. In other words, our affinity for CDing could be interpreted as an extension of "the male gaze." You know, that concept that says that women are expected to value themselves based on how men perceive them. I sometimes wonder if by expressing my interpretation of femininity, I am simply perpetuating the notion that a woman's worth lies in her appearance. Hmm...

[CarlaWestin]

In my instance, I dress with an appearance that makes me happy. And I'm male.
Is there some kind of social value judgement based on appearance recognition?
And since when has being objectified become such a negative thing? Maybe it is to the insecure.

[kimdl93]

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

[CarlaWestin]

So, if I may, treating anyone as only an object of physical desire is wrong.
But objectification as an instance is merely a harmless emotional response.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Yeah, what Kim said.

I know I've seen the modern Cher and Christina version of Burlesque a few times and I find myself thinking how much i'd love to be that hot and have a body like that.
Of course, I have no real idea how hard it could be, to suddenly be looked at merely as a sex object.
I think I see beauty in much more subtle ways when I look at a pretty woman, and a woman's inner beauty, intelligence and other non visual traits are what I see most.

It's a tricky thing for sure tho.
Cass

[Nikki A.]

I'm sure that some of us strive to be that "perfect" woman, then there is some objectification. However when I do go out as Nikki I do it for myself. I don't go over the top, but I use makeup and some "enhancements" to blend and not be seen as a MIAD. Not knocking those that do the MIAD, but that is not in my comfort zone.
I also tend to dress pretty conservative, although I prefer a skirt or a dress over wearing pants. In other words I just want to be me, those that know me aren't being fooled and I don't mind if I don't always pass.

[Maid_Marion]

I've been guilty of staring at beautiful women I actually know. But, I suppose I get away with it because I also treat them as intellectual equals when generously sharing my knowledge, as they don't seem to mind....
I know way more about growing camelias and roses than the master gardeners in my area. I did field trips to the DC area to study camellias.

[LovingThePanties]

I think that this is absolutely the case. For myself, and I'd imagine for many here, what drew us to crossdressing was the glamour and beauty of female clothes, makeup, form, and femininity in general. This is why most of us would choose to wear sexy lingerie under a pretty dress w/ our makeup done to the 9s than to wear loose fitting women's jeans and a crew neck. It's an obsession focused very squarely on what I guess would best be defined as traditional feminine beauty and grace. This really cuts against the third-wave feminist belief that men and women are essentially the same and there are no bright lines between female and male traits, dress, and mannerisms. Personally, I don't think that there is anything w/ appreciating the things, intrinsically and extrinsically (e.g., clothes & make-up), that make them special and beautiful. I view it much more as appreciation of specific qualities and characteristics of women rather than objectification.

[Tracii G]

Oh gee lets blame men for everything shall we?
Women objectify men all the time and nothing happens why is that?
I'm almost afraid to even talk to a women anymore.
Monica you need to stop reading whats in the media these days.

[docrobbysherry]

I have always admitted admired pretty, sexy, young women!

There's nothing about a man in a dress that excites me. But, since Sherry is NOT a projection of me, I make every attempt to have her appear to be a sexy young woman!:D

Let me add, once I get to know women the objectifying stopped. There's many pretty women I don't find attractive after they open their mouth! At that point, I would flirt with them if I wanted to date them. Or, simply be nice if I didn't want a date or couldn't for whatever reason!

Unfortunately, these days I'm too old to date pretty, young women!
So, Sherry will have to do!

[Helen_Highwater]

Monica,

On the face of it there is some truth in what you say. However...... as Traci points out, look at the adverts for things such as perfume and the men who appear in those meet a certain stereotype.

It is true that I attempt to look as feminine as I can by the use of padding, corsetry and you could even argue a wig. What I know is I can't achieve is a size zero, that stick thin look that's so often promoted in the glossies. What I'm aiming for is a shape that is typical for a healthy, non obese, female and to that effect I feel I meet my aim. I'm at the larger end of the sizing range, UK 16/18, size 9 shoes and taller than the average GG.

As many will know I'm a "blender" not a "passer" so I don't want to stick out by having such a drop dead gorgeous figure that I draw attention. Healthy average is my goal and looking at what's posted here many of us fall into that category. I'm not decrying those who present as larger ladies. In fact it's they who prove the exception to the rule by the question raised in the post.

Being attractive to the opposite sex is a fundamental driver for the continued existence of a species. Humans however it seems have evolved to have a wide spectrum of what's "sexy". What attracts one, turns off another.

The look I achieve I believe isn't based on a single idealised image of what's feminine. It's more to do with what a health middle aged GG with a certain sense of style would wear to a given venue and that can depend upon disposable income as much as body shape.. I'll loose no sleep over this.

[DIANEF]

Having worked with an all female staff for many many years I can tell you women objectify men just as much as the other way round. I'm pretty broad minded but some of the things I hear make even me blush. On a personal level I admire women for the way they look because I want to emulate that look, the thought of 'desiring' them in any way doesn't enter my head.

[Micki_Finn]

There is nothing wrong with admiring and being attracted to the female form. It’s not that the enlightened don’t have those feeling, it’s that they understand how to act (or not act) on those feelings. Dressing itself is not misogynistic. Now if you were dressing because you thought you could be better at being a woman, THAT would be misogyny.

[Rachael Leigh]

I think I understand your point here is we want to look like our dream girl as it were with all the curves in the right place and such.
I for one don’t try for that but I wish I had some of those looks but I don’t need to enhance my look to achieve it.
Mostly I just try to hide what I can and just be myself with the body God gave me

[Tracii G]

I really worry about the mental state of some men these days because they have been beaten down by the media and made fun of in TV shows for years now feminists are jumping in and blaming all the ills in the world on men.
I personally am offended the way some women act in public and their husbands and BFs won't say anything.

[Beverley Sims]

There are many unattractive women out there and these days it is better to blend in like them.

If you have it then by all means use it to your advantage.

[biancabellelover]

I think you’re over thinking.

My opinion is that we’ve enough issues as CD’s without creating new ones ourselves.

Michelle

[DaisyLawrence]

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

I looked at your profile page Monica but without a picture of you en femme it is hard to see where your thoughts may apply to you specifically. There are, however, a LOT of people on this forum that are autogynephilic (and a small few who actually admit it) and I am sure there is dressing for the purpose of sexual gratification by creating the most willing object of female sexual desire available to them, and if that isn't objectification then I don't know what is. Is it wrong though? Probably not. It is only wrong when you treat an unwilling third party female as an object of sexual pleasure and nothing more. We are all driven by sexual desires after-all, even women.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Monica,
I totally get what you’re asking, and have thoughts along the same vine.
My only interruption to anything along those thoughts is...would a 7 year old care?
Much Love,
Kristyn

[phili]

This is an important topic. One GG gave a heartfelt critique of what she saw as CDs promoting objectification. See
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...sharing-thread posts 207,210

However, it is also a broad term that includes all ways people minimize the humanity of others in favor of a utilitarian or symbolic objectification. We do it anytime we regard someone as a robot doing a job [enemy solider, custodial employee, *****, police, ...the list goes on].

Objectification hurts, obviously. Women have been culturally assigned second class status [look pretty but leave the real work to us men], which becomes objectification when they find men catcalling as they walk by or ignoring them in business meetings, or dating then for sex, etc.

The risk of objectification makes some women dress down, so not to lead with their female sex characteristics. The audience for Victoria's secret fashion show is half of what it was a few years ago:
https://theglowup.theroot.com/the-20...car-1830881888

The argument is undoubtedly being made by feminist minded purists that any heel is a nod to sexual exploitation. But the growing objection to objectification doesn't stop a lot of women from trying to enjoy dressing in ways that enhance their femaleness, but signal that the communication is not sexual, but gender,and not inviting predation.

I dress, as women do, for myself, with the goal of enjoying the feel and the look of my clothing, without causing chaos or threat around me. I am not dating, so attraction is not part of my message. [And in my case the universe of people attracted to a mirl is very tiny!- but I yam what I yam] I am not vulnerable, so I see objectifying actions by others for what they are. I

MHO, transformation CDs presenting the look of a female are doing exactly what other women who look that way are doing, and therefore not supporting objectification, unless taking the extra steps needed to trying to look like a sex object!

Men have a similar prescribed dress code, and most men don't go around with open shirt fronts and glistening tan chests. Sexually interesting clothing is one hook, but everyone knows that when you catch a woman [or man] you have to start paying attention to their real needs if you want the relationship to continue.

[Jean 103]

OK,

First forget about all this blending nonsense.

Find a style that works for you.

For this forget what guys and most on this site, think. You are looking for approval from women. It is impossible to please them all. There isn’t one look, dress, etc... Your target is going to be the ones you want to be friends with.

I live as a TG person. My friends mostly GG’s. They accept me as one of them.

I have created this new life I live as Jean. It’s gotten to the point that it has a life of its own, if that makes any since?
Like if I try and ignore it, it hunts me down. Like a boyfriend that left a message on the answering machine at work a week ago asking JEAN to return his call. It was no big deal, yes I called him and we got together. Or like my best friend who lives thirty minutes way, storming into my house demanding to know where Jean is and is she OK. Yes when my roommate told me I called her. Today is her birthday, we have a big night planned with her boyfriend driving, so we can party. One thing I can tell you is I will not be blending in. I have this dress I just finished. Even thou I know the reaction will be” WOW”, it is what they all expect from me.

I did all this without knowing what I was doing, with a little schooling along the way by my friends.

Kristyn, really, what 7 year old?

It depends on the kid and your relationship to them.

For the most part kids don’t care because I’m in that group call old people.

Now there are few exceptions, like my friends kids. But they know me, and when they see me they want to share things in their world. To see the world through the eyes of a six year old, priceless.

Phili, I live as a TG person, and this is how I describe myself to the public. I would never insult my friends by declaring I’m living as a women. Not even when I was living as the lady of the house with my boyfriend, a male roommate and his six year old daughter. This lasted for a year before I through it all away, a long story.

[CarlaWestin]

I really worry about the mental state of some men these days because they have been beaten down by the media and made fun of in TV shows for years now feminists are jumping in and blaming all the ills in the world on men.
I personally am offended the way some women act in public and their husbands and BFs won't say anything.

I know exactly what you're saying. And there's an interesting mis-associated conspiracy theory that all males are being forced femmed by the media.



Can they really do that?

[Aunt Kelly]

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

I was going to say something similar, Kim, but you've stated it succinctly and clearly. I get that it's easy to conflate the two, but for the cross dresser, the objectification is personal and has little to do with his view of women. That view may be healthy and respectful, or it may be dim and dismissive. CD'ing has nothing to do with that.

Interesting that you should mention "the male gaze", Monica. I have been guilty of that for my entire life, but it has become clear to me that, for me, the driver was not libido, but rather, envy. It's temptingly easy to call that objectification, but it is something else completely, because it also invokes the awareness of what I lack. The "gaze" is not focused on something I want, sexually or physically. It is more on what I am yet not. Yes, I'm TS and it's a different perspective than that of a CD, but I thought that the notion might be worth considering.

[Tracii G]

Only if they themselves let society do that to them.
Its a natural thing both sexes do and have done as long as they have been on this planet.
Personally if guys want to be that way its fine with me. I personally don't find emasculated men attractive.
Regular guys I do find attractive.

[LovingThePanties]

I know exactly what you're saying. And there's an interesting mis-associated conspiracy theory that all males are being forced femmed by the media.



Can they really do that?

I don't think that it's just the media and forced femme isn't the way that I'd put it, but I do think it's evident that there is a fairly, if not large vocal, movement saying that masculinity in its traditional sense is toxic and that it is the cause of society's ills. For instance, the phrase "we don't need to hear from more straight men" is one that's not uncommon in the national conversation. While this isn't a line of thought that is designed to feminize men, it is designed to shame them (it's not logically valid either). I'm a man's man about 90% of the time (the other 10% i'm in panties, makeup, & women's clothes ), so folks in the anti-man persuasion do irritate me, primarily because they (and a lot of men) fundamentally misunderstand what masculinity, in its ideal state should be (if they did, they wouldn't try to shame it), and secondarily because I don't find attempts to divide ppl by sex or any other immutable characteristic particularly helpfully in building a cohesive society. Generally, men need women and women need men and men and women have struggled against hardship together throughout all of human history. At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong w/ men having masculine characteristics, there's nothing wrong w/ women having feminine characteristics, and I (like I imagine most here) would like to see a cease to the escalating man vs woman conflict that some prominent media and political figures keep trying to promote.