Lies & SO

[KimberC]

Not going out of your way to tell things that weren't asked isn't a lie..... well, sorta. Some things are, some things aren't, and from person to person, as well as with different relationships, there are some areas that it's less clear cut. When, like in my case, it's a very new thing and you aren't even sure where it's going yet I think there is more wiggle room.... but if it's been a part of you for a long time it's another. The biggest thing is that you need to try to share your feelings as EARLY AS POSSIBLE or it will be even more difficult later.
Of course I shouldn't really say that as I've not shared anything YET with my wife..... but I am trying to find ways to work into it with our conversations.

[DianeT]

Deliberate omission is, without question, a deception. A lie is the deliberate expression of a falsehood. The two are similar, but not the same.

I agree with you but that is a technicality. For a SO it makes absolutely zero difference. The "Not telling/ lies and hiding things from a GGs POV" in the Loved Ones section are full of testimonies to that. If some members here want to play smart over the subtlety between the two, they can be my guests. When their SO finds out that they deceived but didn't lie, I bet if they raise their finger to evaluate the level of shitstorm on a Beaufort scale they won't be able to tell the difference.

[Stephanie Voorhees]

My wife only knew that I wore pantyhose when we first met. She didn't ask, I told her that. Neither of us saw that as a lie because it wasn't. I DID wear pantyhose, but with other things that I didn't tell her about. Over time, I told her more and more and now, she knows everything. She is the most accepting woman on the planet. She has been along with me on this journey for over 20 years now. I consider myself to be Trans, and my wife has told me that if I were to every consider surgery, she'd be right there holding my hand when I came out. Even though it took years for me to tell her the extent of myself, she never thought I lied to her by not telling her all at once, and neither did I simply because she never asked if there was more. Omission is definitely not a lie.

[sometimes_miss]

Omissions aren't 'lies'. Think; have you told your SO EVERYTHING that you have ever done? No, you haven't. You would have to give a second by second review of your entire life, which would take, well, the equal amount of time that your life has taken.
We tell others the things about us that we think they need, or would want, to know. Everyone does this. I didn't tell my wife that I had been a crossdresser 10 years before we met. Why? I thought that I had either outgrown it, or 'beaten' it. So why tell her something like that? It simply didn't seem relevant to anything in our lives. Did she tell me that she had been hospitalized for major depression? No. Did she tell me that she was passive aggressive? No. But every woman will give her a pass for that, because what I did, they feel, was just wrong, as if I should have told her about every feeling I ever had. Should I have told her that I wanted to kill the kid that bullied me in high school? Should I tell her about the thoughts I had about forced feminization when I was younger, and didn't understand that the guilt I felt about wanting to be a girl manifested itself into the idea of having someone else force me to do it so that I didn't have to bear the responsibility for it? No, because I grew out of that as I realized that none of this was my fault.

Do wives want to know the fury we felt when in the service we had to murder soldiers on the other side? Do they want to know how good it felt to kill someone who had just killed the guy next to us? Not likely. But does 'being honest' demand that we tell them that, because we shouldn't 'omit' ANYTHING?
No one tells someone else every thought that we ever had. No one. It's impossible.

Consider all the women, who divorced their husband after 20 or 30 years of marriage, because they found out that he had an affair when he was 24; so she suddenly thinks, 'I never really knew who he was'. Yet she had 30 years of happiness; would she have had another 30 years if she didn't know? Was it really that important, if he never did it again? Or was it worth telling her, and ruining all those memories of a wonderful life with him and their kids and grandkids? Should he tell her on their 30th anniversary, 'BTW, honey, I screwed your sister 28 years ago, hope you're okay with that', all to 'be totally honest'?

Is honesty always the best and only option?

Lies of omission are something that people complain about, when they find out something that they didn't know, that they wanted to know. There's no way to know, what they might want to know, or couldn't stand to know.

[Asew]

I omitted to my wife initially about my teenage crossdressing. But I thought I was over it so I figured I would take that secret to the grave. But once it came back more than once a year it took me a few months to work up the courage to tell her. Since then I have been very honest and try not to omit anything anymore. Granted at first she didn't want to talk about it much so I omit occasionally based on her mood to end the conversation.

But willful omission may not be a lie but it is dishonest. Try to do what is best for both of you.

[sometimes_miss]

But willful omission may not be a lie but it is dishonest. Try to do what is best for both of you.

Soooooooooo, if you haven't told everyone you've ever met, every thought, every feeling, and about everything you have ever done, that makes you dishonest? Because those are all willful omissions, because you had to CHOOSE to leave some stuff out. That's a pretty weird definition of dishonesty, don't you think? or are you just admitting to being dishonest, and claiming that we're all dishonest, too?

[DianeT]

Of course Asew was only talking about omissions about crossdressing. Nobody is asking you to tell your SO everything that goes through your head and life. Only the things that you know matter to her or him. You know very well what they are. And most of you obviously expect their SO to be aware of yours too, since there are a good lot of things that would really upset you if they "omitted" to tell you about them. Let's suppose that one day you confront your SO who cheated on you, and she/he happened to read this instructive thread and tells you it was an omission not a lie since you didn't ask, and omission isn't dishonesty, will you be cool with that? If you are, congrats, if you aren't, then your arguments are specious.

This is of the same vein as discussions about boundaries where members declare that they aren't "mind readers" and pretend they couldn't anticipate some SO's reactions about their pushing the dressing too far. Same mechanics, same results when the SO finds out.

[April Rose]

I doubt there has ever been a person on earth who was 100% honest 100%of the time. I told my wife, and dressed in front of her well before we were married, but over the years I sometimes edited things that I thought she didn't need to deal with, or that might unnecessarily upset her. She had her own shortcomings, and acknowledged it, and did the same with me. In the long run we trusted what was in each others hearts.

[confused_cathreen]

Interesting to read the variety of mental gymnastics for self-justification in this thread. You knew this was important for her to know since you chose to not tell her because, in your own admission, you were afraid of how she would react. Not that you didn't know it was important. You were just afraid to deal with the concequences. If you didn't think it was prevalent information, you would have said it straight away. The same way you propably tell her a lot of irrelevant information every day. Like what happened with a colleague at work, or what was on the news yesterday. But no, you knew very well this was important and yet, you chose to not tell her. That's what makes it a lie. When you know you are doing something that carries a risk to your relationship and you choose to not say anything. I should add that I am not refering to the DADT relationships here since I don't know the parameters of these relationships and what the agreement is between those couples. But even in those relationships, I don't think it would mean " do whatever you want, just don't tell me about it". Again though, if that's what she said, that's her choice. As I said, I don't know what these relationships are like so don't have an opinion.

[Star01]

So, basically I am gathering that the general consensus here is that omission is lying and we should be totally transparent with our wives. What this opinion does not address is how members who?s wives have demanded DADT can even have that type of relationship.

Basically that approach invalidates and makes every DADT an arrangement based on lies, even when the GG spouse is the one that establishes it.

In my case that makes me a liar and invalidates my standing as a member of this forum. If my peers aka the members of this forum will not tolerate me or lend me any respect who will? I cannot help it that I was forced to live in this depressing situation and now I have no respect here.

The urge to purge and work with my therapist to try and wipe out this life long affliction is becoming much more pronounced. If I am hated on here for being in a situation I did not ask for what is the sense of even being a member?

What is the alternative that would gain respect? Blow up a 51 year marriage so I can go to the feed mill in a dress in my small town? That is not happening so I will have to decide if I even belong here on this forum.

[candykowal]

Oh Star, I hope you are not serious about belonging.
Even though there are those of us who think otherwise, not only about this topic, but many others, dosent mean we who are in a DADT relationship are hated.
We all have our opinions about relationships, presentation, and the path of happiness we all choose to take.
Part of all that is having opinions. If we can't present these opinions, then yes, why are we here?
The old saying, "Take it with a grain of salt" seems to be the best advice we can remember when participating in ANY social media site, now days.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter how hard we try to, we won't change their way of thinging.
And, if we let cancel culture stop all of us from presenting our opinions, we are no better than dictators!

[Stephanie47]

Cathreen, several years ago in response to a thread Char posted lying by omission before marriage did not give the woman the opportunity to make a choice. That is a valid point. Even if she is made aware before the "I do's" she is free to change her mind. So, what is anyone suppose to do under both circumstances? The husband? The wife? In a DADT marriage it is not as simple as "do whatever you want, just don't tell me about it." It's not that simple. If a couple has been married to any length of time I think each spouse gets a fairly good read on the other spouse. Aside from the cross dressing issue, what brought them together? Obviously, since 50% of marriages end up in divorce, there are other material factors that did not arise before marriage or were intentionally overlooked for some reason. At what point should the relationship dissolve? I can only give an answer as it relates to me. Not anyone else on this forum.

Unfortunately, there are too few GG's wives on this forum to get a true consensus of why a wife stays married to a cross dressing husband. No scientific poll here.

[DianeT]

So, basically I am gathering that the general consensus here is that omission is lying and we should be totally transparent with our wives.

Star, first we are certainly far from any general consensus here and there is a debate between very different ways of thinking here. Second, saying that omission is lying (and not everyone is saying that, some like me are more saying that SOME omissions equal lying, and a majority is simply refusing the equivalence no matter what) doesn't imply that you have to be totally transparent. It all depends on your personal situation and the dynamics of your couple. For example, the DADT flavor with my wife is that I am not going to tell her all the details of what I did during a dressing session (however I already detailed what I typically do so she knows what it's about), BUT if she has questions I am supposed to answer in full honesty. Your mileage may vary and you, just as everyone else on this board, belong here, DADT or no DADT. Nobody is questioning that. And if I gave that impression then I am sorry for that, but that is absolutely not my purpose when writing these posts.
The main point a few of us are driving at is that some omissions equal to lies because they are conscious, deliberate, and only done to protect the member from the consequences in case the SO found out, not to "protect" the SO. But you know what? It shouldn't matter. Whether you call this kind of omission an omission or a lie, they are just words, it shouldn't make a difference. The SO, if s/he finds out, will hold you responsible in the exact same way. I am only arguing that some problematic omissions can equate to lies in an attempt to bring some members' attention to this last fact. And to reduce the likelihood of future sorry threads titled "Caught by wife" then "My new life in a motel room".

[abby054]

No, omissions are not lies. Lies are overt, intentional acts of deception. Remaining silent is not lying. Where I went to school, an American military college, they had an honor code. The first requirement was that I do not lie. Those guys defined lying so well and in such length and depth that the best lawyers would be proud of them. I was taught carefully that I could not be held to be lying if I kept my mouth shut. They could scream and yell all they wanted. Even if silence gave away the truth and led to investigation and punishment, I could be convicted of an array of offenses but I still could not be held guilty of lying by remaining silent. Other offenses meant punishment, sometimes severe but lying meant dismissal and a return home to “shovel s*** in Louisiana” as General Patton colorfully expressed my fate. That was the only punishment I truly feared.

I soon learned in the Army and in marriage that information is currency. Used carefully, it has immense value. In love and war, keep them guessing. I do not lie. On the other hand, I do not reveal information that can be used against me. The easiest person to deceive is one’s own self, so why deceive my wife when she is enthusiastic about doing it to herself? As the old cliche goes, it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open my mouth and remove all doubt.

[donnalee]

I think that even in the closest relationship, each individual deserves a certain amount of privacy. It's a matter of respect for one another and intruding shows disrespect. Information should only be volunteered if one desires the other to know.

[Star01]

Oh Star, I hope you are not serious about belonging.
Even though there are those of us who think otherwise, not only about this topic, but many others, dosent mean we who are in a DADT relationship are hated.
We all have our opinions about relationships, presentation, and the path of happiness we all choose to take.
Part of all that is having opinions. If we can't present these opinions, then yes, why are we here?
The old saying, "Take it with a grain of salt" seems to be the best advice we can remember when participating in ANY social media site, now days.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter how hard we try to, we won't change their way of thinging.
And, if we let cancel culture stop all of us from presenting our opinions, we are no better than dictators!

Thanks for the suggestions but I owned and maintained a website with a message board on an unrelated sporting topic for close to twenty years and have been a computer user since 1985 and connected to the internet at home since 1996. Having ran a website and have been around since the infancy of consumer internet access I think I have a good understanding of how social media works. And, I understand taking things with a grain of salt after raising four adult kids ranging in age all the way to fifty. I was a lay minister for twenty five years and even got involved in visiting congregation members in their homes. Your comments suggest that I just fell off the turnip wagon yesterday but my life experience could fill an encyclopedia.

[Teri Ray]

Of all the forums on the web this site should be a place where your thoughts expressed are taken for your opinion. I find that no everyone here always agrees and the exchange of ideas is a good thing. I hope Star that you continue to be a part of this forum and continue to say how and what you feel. If wrong opinions was the criteria to leave this site I would have been expelled long ago. But thank goodness I have never been wrong............... except for the time I thought I was wrong but found latter I wasn't.

[DianeT]

Star, I think Candice was just being gentle and respectful with you. At least that is my opinion

[Sandi Beech]

Just adding my 2 cents worth here,

Most everyone is respectful here which I do like about this site, but I just want to point out that:

1. Many of us are exposing our deepest feelings. That sets us up for getting hurt when being criticized.

2. Athough I understand many of the shared points of view. While valid, the manner with which some viewpoints are expressed could be a little less harsh. After all, the site is to a degree a crossdressers support site right ?

3. One could say something like this: "I prefer to be completely honest with my SO", as opposed to saying something on the order of "You are a liar because you .... ( you fill in the blank)".

4. What works for some, will never work for others. People need to understand that.

My only point is that we can have a difference of opinion and still be respectful. Personally I think I am going to avoid the liar threads from now on as there is no benefit for me. I am just here to have fun. Besides, I already know I have been dishonest. It is just how it is.

Sandi

[susanmichelle]

I want to publicly apologize to everyone here as it was not in anyway my goal to upset anyone here period. Especially Star. I wouldn?t ever want to give you any reason to not continue here as a member. We are a support group to each other and sometimes we say our feelings and it?s not supposed to be directed at anyone in particular. For me myself I?ve run across the debate with an ex-wife and also two ex girlfriend?s this is part of the reason for bringing up the topic in the first place. If the topic has offended anyone I really truly am sorry and take responsibility for my own actions.

[Di]

Mod NOTE !
This thread will go back to the discussion NOW.
Everyones saying what they have in their relationship or what they would like.
Everyone is talking about their own personal experience and everyone is doing what they think best in their relationship.
No one has called anyone out on what they are are doing . So stop taking things personally....no one is calling anyone out .
It is a good discussion to have so we can see all sides and have understanding.
Lets get on track no one needs to apologize for speaking their truth.
And stop taking things out of context.

Back on track or your post will be deleted!

[TheHiddenMe]

I think that even in the closest relationship, each individual deserves a certain amount of privacy. It's a matter of respect for one another and intruding shows disrespect. Information should only be volunteered if one desires the other to know.

I agree 100%.

My wife knows I dress. She also told me "lie to me" because she doesn't want to know. So I do.

I will go out dressed and not tell her. I will have a cover story. For example, I bike ride a lot, and occasionally my "bike rides" are times when I stick my bike in the back of my SUV and go out dressed instead. I often play tennis at our tennis club at night, but on occasion I have gotten dressed and met a friend for drinks, and then cleaned up afterwards.

By lying to my wife it lessens the stress on her, because she believes if I'm found out people will seem sorry for her because she's married to a CD.

I do tell her sometimes that I am going out dressed, because I want to demonstrate that I can go out and no one is ever the wiser, and that my dressing and going out is the "price of admission" (see Dan Savage) for being married to me, and all the good qualities I bring to our marriage.

So sometimes I don't tell her and other times I lie. I would prefer to be more honest, but that's not the way she wants it.

[Beverley Sims]

Omissions may not be lies but they certainly help bend the truth.

You meet a guy and he thinks you are a girl.........???

[Teresa]

Bev,
In those circumstanced we are talking more of additions rather than omissions .

I chatted to a guy yesterday in a garden centre over a choice of roses , I was quite happy to thought of as a lady , is there I hidden lie in that somewhere ?

[sometimes_miss]

Of course Asew was only talking about omissions about crossdressing. Nobody is asking you to tell your SO everything that goes through your head and life. Only the things that you know matter to her or him. You know very well what they are. .

Ahhhh, yes. We're back to one of the assumptions, that all men can read the minds of the women they love. Been there, was never able to do that. I think everyone here, at one time or another, has had to face an angry women confronting us with, 'Well if you don't know what you did, I'm certainly not going to tell you!', leaving the poor guy with more questions than he started out with before whatever argument escalated into greater confusion.
We can't read minds; none of us 'just knows' what will be important to another person, and what will not. We guess; that's about as good as it gets. And when we guess wrong, we get crucified for it.