No female identity

[DianeT]

I don't have a female persona, I don't roleplay while dressed nor imagine I am a woman, I don't call myself Diane (this is so far just a forum pseudo), and feel weird when my wife or any other member of these forums (but especially my wife) refers to me as "she", "her", etc. I am just a male who enjoys the magical experience of presenting as a female and the troubling feeling of female attire (the crossing in crossdressing). Crossdressing isn't a way of revealing my true nature, quite the opposite, I want to venture as far as I can from my true nature and usual self when I do, and I love to be back to my male self when I stop, like a traveler can enjoy an exotic trip and still be glad to return home. I am also irritated by this common pseudo-wisdom that all crossdressers dream of transitioning like we all were made from the same mold, but of course that is just me being delusional (the advantage of that theory being that it is not refutable since if you're not there yet someone can always tell you that you aren't there - YET, and if you're not there at 80-something then it's because you missed the train and can't anymore).
I sometimes feel very much alone on this forum. Any other chap for whom this rings a bell?

[Georgia_Maine]

I may be wrong but to me you seem to identify more as a crossdresser and cisgender rather than non-binary. Any way you personally identify is simply *you* and totally acceptable.

[kimdl93]

I feel that I fit seasonably well under the transgender/non-binary category. I must return to the male presentation under some circumstances, but I do so grudgingly and uncomfortably. I love when my friends and strangers refer to me as she/her. And I do tend to fall among that subset of individual who denied and repressed my desires and actually feared that if I allowed myself, I might succumb to an unstoppable momentum towards transition.

Diane, you are probably happier with your occasional visits to exotic lands than I am as a one who would immigrate if I could.

[DianeT]

Georgia, you are right in your analysis and thanks for the words of encouragement. I am still not sure about the definition of TG and wanted to post this in a non public forum (a little long to explain why). - Mods - please feel free to move this to the main MTF section if it doesn't belong here.

Kim, I feel indeed that the dressing and the dysphoria is much more a heavy weight to bear for some fellow members than it is for me. And you are right, the dressing always made me more happy than it caused suffering (the one who suffers is my wife, actually). I experienced the fear of being outed (which is different from actual shame) but never guilt. I do experience guilt now that I revealed it to my wife and she started hurting because of it. Guilt of deception during all these years. Thanks for the kind words and for sharing. Always interesting to read you.

By the way I hope no one took my words about the pseudo-inevitable transitioning of crossdressers as a hostility against people transitioning or considering it. They are certainly not. I respect everyone, I just get annoyed when people are thrown into pre-made categories and denied their individuality. We are a broad spectrum. We may share some common feelings and life experience, and that is an opportunity to bind together. But that doesn't change the fact that each of us is unique and must follow her/his path, and not patterns imposed on us.

[mykell]

........

[MarinaTwelve200]

Yes, DianeT. I consider MY CD sessions as "A vacation away from myself"---I too, do NOT identify as a female Nor would really like to be "stuck" as one (although that prospect has its own masochistic erotic element about it) It disturbs me how CDers are often suspected of being Homosexual or Transsexual by most of the general public-----Although most of that is out of general ignorance. I honestly think that MANY adults really do not know what Homosexuality really is, and stick to the "Kids definition" of a man who think's he's a woman"----And of course anybody who cross-dresses MUST be "Gay". -----I strictly define a Crossdresser as a person who wears the clothing of the opposite sex and is NOT Gay (or TS). I consider those Cross dressing males who IDENTIFY with women as being really, to a degree, as Transsexuals (if they really want to transition or not) And Homosexuals as People physically attracted to those of the same Biosex.----I do not mean to insult anybody with these definitions but we must have clear defined terms to discuss or even think about these conditions.---And all of us usually CROSSDRESS----let us not confuse WHAT we do (the verb) by our "definition" of who or what we are.-----I know some people do not like "Labeling", but personally, as a Scientist , "Things" HAVE to be named, or else we cannot even THINK about them, much less communicate on the same page with others,---the mind works with WORDS.---But we can all have our own definitions, so long as we are self consistent.

[Lana Mae]

Diane, everyone's journey is different! If you are relatively happy where you are, you are fine! All of us are different, but the same! Although I am a transwoman, I totally support you and your differences from me! As I have said before, let your self be yourself! Best wishes on your journey where ever it takes you! Hugs Lana Mae

[Katya@]

I don't have a female persona, I don't roleplay while dressed nor imagine I am a woman, I don't call myself Diane (this is so far just a forum pseudo), and feel weird when my wife or any other member of these forums (but especially my wife) refers to me as "she", "her", etc.

That was my experience from the start but I never wanted to come back to the male role. I didn't want to live as a male but wasn't ready yet to embrace trans womanhood. For me this feeling came, but with time.
Good luck on your journey and don't be afraid to explore and ask questions. Chart your own path.

[DianeT]

I clearly identify as male in front of society. I think there is an element of dysphoria when you go the full nines in presenting as female, but while this seems for some members to be driven by discomfort or distress in male mode, it is more driven by curiosity of the other gender in my case. I don't want to identify, I just want to explore the other side. If there is an element of dysphoria in my case, it is more psychological. I am not pleased with some stereotypical traits males can exhibit, or be expected to exhibit, aggressiveness, selfishness, sententiousness, misogyny, etc. In a word, I identify as a male, no question, but I am not always proud of being one when looking in from the outside. I don't want to enter stereotypes about feminine qualities, demureness and all, but sometimes wish I would, could follow a path in between. The first times I went the full nines triggered a game of "what if"?. What if I had been born a girl? How would I look like, how would I behave? When dressing, and for a while after coming back to male mode, I am usually soothed, and cooler than my usual self. I wish I could stay that way. Then you get caught in the whirlwind of real life again.

-- EDIT -- Some responses removed after the move to a public thread.

[Suranne]

Diane, I think that this post is in exactly the correct space. Even though you say you, yourself identify as male, to me you are essentially asking what is it that is the difference that makes some of us, those who gather here, different from the those, like you who dress to go to an exotic place.

Me, I'm happy to call myself trans. I think that in the world in general there is a misunderstanding of what trans actually means. For me, and I think that this is the more accepted use of the word trans, it doesn't mean that I was assigned male at birth and I now identify as female. What it actually means is that the gender that I identify as, is not male and is not the gender I was assigned at birth. We live in a binary society and so, the only way that I can openly display that I am not male is to identify more towards the female, though, in doing so, I am not identifying as female, I am identifying as not male. Hence the non-binary tag that I am happy to live by.

There are many reasons why people assigned male at birth will present in the world as female and there is a vast difference between the reasons that many on the male to female public board dress to those of us here. As you said in your OP for you, you go on a journey, you enjoy it while you are away and then you are happy to return to you, being you as you understand yourself to be, and as you identify to the world.

For me, it is not a journey, it's more fundamental than that. It's absolutely core to how I identify - it is the very essence of what makes me, me. I presnet as the way I do, I enjoy being miss-gendered, I enjoy passing as a woman out and about, because I can't live as a male, I don't identify that way (as a male), and I never did. When I was growing up I had to conform to the binary world, but that world has now passed and I am able to be me, being me.

As I said before, the reasons for us being here are varied and being one way or another doesn't make one right and the other wrong. Both are correct as they come from inside each and everyone of us. We're all on a journey, yours are short and you return each time, mine is longer and I'm still traveling, I don't know what the destination will be and I probably won't know when I've got there. What I do know is that at the moment, I'm in as good a place for me and I can be and it feels right.

I wish you every success and hope that you can sort through your feelings of guilt - you've nothing to be ashamed or guilty about.

[mykell]

........

[Di]

Great discussion
I moved the thread per your request DianeT

I hope you don’t feel alone Diane, Sher also said she could not relate to many here and that just makes you unique.
Being able to talk to others and support each other is important.
Everyone is different and everyone is included.

[GretchenM]

(That was shocking, Di. I went to post my response to Diane and meanwhile the thread got moved. No harm done; just a Twilight Zone Moment.)

Diane, I think you are fine. To me the rule in this behavior pattern is that there is no rule. I formerly wrestled with many of things you mention. Am I male or female; am I a man or a woman or a shape shifter; am I this or am I that? Then I discovered that conceptually all of this either/or thinking is a result of the habit humans have of, for example, calling cats cats and therefore they are cats. They are not cats; they are creatures with certain characteristics and that is all they are. Is a chair a chair if you stand on it to reach something high or, at that moment, does it become a stool or a ladder? In other words its reality shifts from one identity to another depending on how that particular structure is used - sit on it, stand on it, use it for an elevated storage structure, use it for a desk or table, etc. That structure has many linguistic identities besides chair which is only something you sit on. It doesn't actually change shape; only the concept changes depending on the use. Is a chair a chair if nobody is sitting on it or using it in some way?

In the concept of the gender binary, gender is very static and is often thought of as though it is the same thing as sex. With deep apologies to the intersex folks, there are only two sexes - egg producers and sperm producers. Been that way, in various forms, for the last 2 billion years; before then we were all the same - we replicated rather than reproduced. Like bacteria. There are no male or female bacteria, but bacteria still have unique characteristics and do exhibit individual differences, although those are really hard to see. I suspect they don't have any trouble telling each other apart by the efficiency of their talents in organic chemistry. Do they care? Probably not. It is just life.

To me, gender is an important social behavior that is not actually even necessary, except in social creatures that have different roles within that society it is good to conceptually differentiate them. We use sex but we could use a lot of other things. And those other things (differences in height, body shape, hip width, foot size, whatever) would work as well if they define a group within a functioning society where individuals tend to work together to survive and therefore have different roles. But we chose sex perhaps because humans are almost always horny and tend to engage in an awful lot more sex than most other creatures. We are pretty unique in that way. Problem is that is all statistical and pertains to the population as a whole. If the population has a very narrow range of variance then it is sensible to assume that most individuals are very similar - like blue petunias. But if the variance is very large then picking an individual that represents the whole is next to impossible - they are all different in so many different ways and along so many dimensions. Genetically, humans exhibit very little variance in physical characteristics when compared to many other animals. Our genome is really pretty small and so there isn't a lot of variation that can occur.

But our big difference lies in having unusually large heads that contain large and unbelievably complex brains that allow an amazing diversity in behavior that can change on a dime and head in a different direction. Our personal identities (how we recognize ourselves) varies all over the map - everybody is unique in spite of the limited possibilities present as a result of a small genome. Nothing is absolute except for the morphology and physiology and even those vary quite a bit. Beans have a different digestive effect in different people.

What does this come down to? In all these responses I think Lana Mae hit the nail best. Be yourself. You are a majority of one when it comes to your identity. You really can't be anything other than yourself and that also applies to everybody else. There is no right way to do this; you can only do your way. That may change and may change dramatically - or NOT. Be well, be happy, be yourself whoever you are. Period.

[crobeson96]

If there's anything one should not feel here, it is alone. Look about the various threads and you'll find more reasons for crossdressing than there are members - some of us change our minds or feel differently one day to another.
I enjoy crossdressing and feel I create a female persona or at least a persona other than my everyday self when I even think about it. She has a name and a personality. That others might feel nothing where I have have a construct doesn't bother me at all. That others might be more advanced or more intense in their sensation of their female self also does not trouble me.
I think in one way, crossdressing is a symptom, like sneezing, and may be evidence of a broad spectrum of causes or reasons or mental states.
Also, the benefits may vary.
What I feel here is kindness and acceptance and love and hope to return these as well.

[Kris Burton]

I don't have a female persona, I don't roleplay while dressed nor imagine I am a woman, I don't call myself Diane (this is so far just a forum pseudo), and feel weird when my wife or any other member of these forums (but especially my wife) refers to me as "she", "her", etc. I am just a male who enjoys the magical experience of presenting as a female I want to venture as far as I can from my true nature and usual self when I do, and I love to be back to my male self when I stop, like a traveler can enjoy an exotic trip and still be glad to return home.
I sometimes feel very much alone on this forum. Any other chap for whom this rings a bell?

Diane, I think I understand what you are saying here, especially when you speak of the "magical experience". Although I do enjoy the persona I have created, role playing and fantasy when dressed, I find it it enhances the adventure you describe. I can and do return to reality, happy and satisfied, looking forward to the next opportunity I can do the same. I very much like your analogy of the traveler on an exotic (and perhaps erotic) trip. I hope that trip never gets old, for me it's WAY too much fun, and presents psychological benefits I could not experience otherwise. So, although we all are different in our approaches to CD (which is also great) you are not alone at all. As for me, I am happy to be part of this community with all the differences it presents.

[Genifer Teal]

There's an old joke: what's the difference between someone who is trans and someone who is a crossdresser? A few years. Regardless how true that is, I used to feel different as gen, now it's just me. The only real difference is how I'm dressed. I don't feel different one way vs the other. It may effect the way people interact with me and that is ok. I'm just me being me. I never felt any dysphoria or like there was a mistake. At some point I decided I liked being gen and I was ok if that was all the time. Existing in the middle space gets awkward sometimes and old. Maybe I'm just afraid of the last step for no particular reason. That's ok too, for now.

[docrobbysherry]

It's true! Way more CD's here than trans, Diane. It's just that many of the active posters here trans. But, there many 1000's of CD's who lurk and never post!

I've been here for many years. And, I've seen countless CD's become trans. Then, eventually vanish from this site. Because they're too busy living as females to be bothered with us "wannabees" anymore!

My first 2 years here I kept waiting for that "woman inside me" to show herself.
Until I realized I don't have one!

U have no idea how many members relate to u, Diane. I certainly do!

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

You are NOT along, Diane! Often reading this site it seems like the "norm" is to be on some level of transitioning, wishing to transition, multiple personalities (M and F), etc. But each time something like this is posted quite a few will come out and state that they are merely crossdressers, not women.
That's me. I'm a guy, like my name suggests, and I don't think I'm all THAT weird. I have no female name, my wife would never refer to me as a "she" or "her" (to the few that even know I like skirts and such). When many on here ask for help of advice I often see things like "any of you girls ever do this?" I always feel weird reading that, because even if I have done that I'm not a girl. I just love girly clothes.
To be fair, there are very few here who intentionally shame folks like us. There was one who was quite notorious at putting others down but I haven't seen her on here for quite a while. (I used to have fun with it by trying to guess how she was going to put the poster down. She's also the main reason I lurked for so long before becoming a member)

[Sandi Beech]

Diane,

Yes, interesting thread. Oddly enough when I go out fully dressed, I give people my real name. I do not try to change my voice. I make it pretty clear that I am a crossdresser, not someone who is transgender. I was so into dressing for a while, I was not sure. After thinking about it a lot, I realized there are far too many real hobbies and projects I like to work on as a male. So I definitely fall into the dressers only category; however, I do feel a bit different from the group as a whole. It does not seem too many are into the clubbing scene like I am. I have some friends here for sure, but I have a hard time relating to some things. Dressing does nothing for making me more calm for example. I believe everyone who say they experience it. It is just different for me so in that sense, some of us feel a bit out of place, but it?s all good. We get to share our feelings here, and someone will always relate to a particular thread.

Take care,

Sandi

[MartineCD]

Hi Diane

Your post has caused a great deal of thought and introspection. I have spent quite a lot of time trying to define myself and it seems that I don't seem to fit into any one box or definition. I identify with nonbinary, transgender but most particularly gender non-conforming.

I agree with what you said about not feeling comfortable behaving in the socially defined male manner. I am not a beer swilling, profanity spouting, loud, agressive, sport loving Dude.

I prefer quiet chat, female company and generally more female defined things.

Like yourself I don't have a defined female persona. I am not a 'woman trapped in a male body'.

My avater name is purely for convenience but seems to fit me better. I do feel much more comfortable wearing female attire and regret having to change back but I don't dislike my body or the fact that I was assigned male at birth.

Looking objectively I think there are more expressions of self than stars in the sky and I don't think anyone can ever share the same journey or gender identity but we all share curiousity about ourselves and eachother.

To paraphrase Heraclitus
No person ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and they're not the same person.

Take care

Martine x

[Alice Torn]

Diane, i can relate to you a lot. I think i have crossdressed for a number of reasons. My father never wanted sons, but got three, and i was the last one born and not really wanted. I was bullied in schools everywhere i went. i am a HSP highly sensitive person. I was bullied and ridiculed byu my older brothers, too. I hated myself most of my life, and started experimenting dressing with my sister and mom's things at age 13. Stopped for many years out of guilt and shame. Did not buy dresses, wigs, and heels and all the extras until mid 50's. I have agonized for many years abut it, went out in public around 25 times, met 4 admirers, but did not have penetration sex, and recently took a 7 month break form dressing. I like my male side more than i used to, accepting it finally, and i agree, that the dressing up to the nines, has been a temporary escape from the loveless world of an old low income bachelor, who has not had a steady girlfriend in my life, nor wife. I think my brain and spirit are a bit both male and female, but i am a male and have to accept the good things of it now.

[DianeT]

@Suranne I totally get not wanting to be identified as a male. The reason I am comfortable with the male tag is because I was raised as one, and looking in a mirror that is what I see, a male, sexually speaking. So it's got more to do with how I am built and how people will therefore categorize me, and not much to do with how I think and feel, which can be more of a blurry line, since I would be very much challenged to define for example what "thinking as a woman" could be (the books I chanced to read that tried to define it were just a collection of unimaginative cliches). Males and females have the same minds (I'll keep thinking this until proven wrong with convincing facts which failed to present so far), education (by our family, by society) is what dispatches us in the male or female social roles. My body has a sex, and a gender to some point since I accepted the social male role so far (but not all its stereotypes). My mind has not. So when I say I have no female identity it means that I don't try to emulate or fantasize about being a female as a social role. Did I wonder what it could be to be a woman, living a woman's life? Many times. But it had little to do with my crossdressing. And being identified as a male socially speaking, as long as I can be my own definition of it (which doesn't involve typical gentlemen's activities such as cars or sports talk, boys nights out etc.), is okay with me.

@Gretchen Good read. I hope you didn't have to rewrite it from scratch due to the thread move. Very much like the idea that destination is what makes a chair a chair, or something entirely different. That we call a male, a male, and then an individual feels pressure to look, walk and talk like one. This is absurd. Because apart from a few domains (biology and medicine), I don't see much use to categorizing people between women and men and the examples abound in everyday's life of situations where these distinctions make absolutely no useful difference. As a student I was a male babysitter (one in a million female ones) and never had any issues with the fact of taking on what was universally considered a female role (which you could tell from the fact that no matter which place I went, I routinely found out that 2 or 3 female sitters had declined before I was called). Like many fellows, identifying as male doesn't mean I can't take on traditional female roles (babysitting, taking care of babies, not watching sports on TV, asking bystanders for directions when driving...).

[TheHiddenMe]

At one dinner meeting of our transgender group our guest speaker, a therapist who deals in gender issue, said "when you've met one transgender person you've met one transgender person".

I consider myself a crossdresser, because of the historical meaning, but being a CD is part of the transgender spectrum. I have a female name, Dee, because it makes life simpler when I am presenting female. I'm still the same person under the clothes. I refer to others who are presenting female as she because it's the right thing to do.

Everyone here has their own story and there is no one mold that we all come from. There is a big enough umbrella here to fit a lot of unique individuals.

[Geena75]

I think Diane has touched on an interesting / tricky aspect of this site. It encompasses such a wide spectrum of individuals and their goals. I am a guy, have always been, always will be. I like who I am and what I can do. I actually regard dressing up not that dissimilar to wearing a disguise, or playing a part. I find it interesting and fun. Those who pursue it as a 24/7 lifestyle are no better or worse than I, only different, as are all those who fall in between the two extremes. I believe it would be bad for me, personally, to pursue such a degree, but it only holds for me. Allowing that I get to really dress once or twice a month for a few hours, it should be obvious that my male self is dominant/normal. I hope to clean up my face someday and really dress out -- to see what I can do. After that I may take a different direction (which would probably be along the lines of less dressing). If my status / goals are regarded as poor, nearing unacceptable, then I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[Steph_CD_62]

I don't ever plan on looking like a female when I dress.

When I do crossdress, I enjoy the feeling of all the clothing that is involved. The only thing I enjoy that makes me look like a female is my breast forms. I enjoy the "feel" when they "bounce" when I am walking around the house. But I am almost as happy when I am dressed as a male. I do wear panties 24/7, but that is because I find them more comfortable than men's underwear. I do know I feel more relaxed when I am wearing women's clothing, I even sleep better while wearing a nightgown.

If I wasn't afraid of being ridiculed, I would wear women's clothing out in public. I do not own a wig and don't plan on it either and I also have very thin hair. Also I do not wear make-up, but each of my wives have put make-up on me, I just enjoyed the attention they gave me while applying it. I know that there are several that would tell me just do it, but the town I live in doesn't have much tolerance to outside the "norm". I've heard the conversations of co-workers and friends and I know how they feel towards crossdressers. Not once have I ever heard anything positive about crossdressing in the town I live in.

On colder days I will wear more women's clothing out in public, but that is because I can hide them under my jacket/coat.

I came to this site hoping to find others like me. I can dress openly in front of my wife and she never has anything bad to say (unless I am dressing too much). I don't want to transition into a woman. I have no desire to be with another man.

I believe that everyone should be able to wear what ever they want. I applaud those that go out fully as a woman. I feel sorry for those that have to hide it from their wife/girlfriend, since that has to be very stressful on them. For those in a DADT relationship I wish you could fully dress in front of their wife, but also realize that would probably put a strain on their marriage.

I've learned a lot from this sight and I look forward to coming here daily.