How often is SO participation required?

[Tamara Croft]

"Do you know anything about Kitty other than what you have read?"

Given the limitations of a forum that is as Google puts it "Typical entry in forum style" how could anyone know more? All we have here is words.

The PM system isn't limited is it?? such a thing as 'asking'... oh wait.... I'm repeating myself, since I've already mentioned the PM system, you chose just to ignore that fact..... :rolleyes:

[tekla west]

It was posted in a public forum. Perhaps the PM system should have been the alpha point and not the omega.

[Tree GG]

Some really strong opinions going on here.

I have posted with Kitty for several months now & find her to be a giving, caring and strong woman who is struggling in her relationship and regret that anyone was moved to direct attacks in a public settings. (Thou doest protest too much?)

The point that some of the major issues being dealt with here are non-CD related is very valid. The strain of adding CD to the work load sometimes is just more weight than the emotional baggage cart can stand. It's a catalyst, not a cause. If it hadn't been CDing, it'd have been something else.

What about the ostrich affect? Wives who stick their heads in the sand and not look? Doesn't make the CDing any less real - doesn't make the husband's added hobby any less burdonsome to time restrictions. However the point can be made that this is the way to go. They CD'd before we knew without our involvement - why should we be involved now, even if they ask?

Let's take the HAVE out of Kitty's thread title. We have "How often is SO participation req'd? Most of the beginning posts answered that from their point of view.

Add the "HAVE" and then we have a slightly different meaning that connotates obligation and lack of free will.

Why does a CDer HAVE to CD? Why does a SO HAVE to participate? Why does a husband HAVE to interact (verbally, physically, whatever) with his wife, and vise versa? Nobody HAS to do anything.

Except.......
If a CDer felt he wanted to perserve a marriage with a SO that was totally against CDing, the CDer would HAVE to hide in the closet.

If a wife wanted to perserve a marriage/relationship with a CDer and felt lack of participation would indicate unacceptance and drive the CDer away, she would feel she HAD to participate.

Or in Kitty's case, she feels she has to participate to get intimate interaction (verbally or physically) with her husband.

Beckii's rant - although hostile and pretty much off the mark in Kitty's case - did hit home with me in 2 ways:

#1) When a CDer comes out of the closet & asks for the wive's/SO's opinion on clothes, hair, makeup - it appears the SO should decline comment - kinda like the "Do I look fat in these jeans?" question. It's hard. But just as somewhere around 12 yrs old I could no longer buy clothes for my daughter (she hated them), I should resist the urge to buy "personal" gifts for CDing. Even though I've been married to this man for decades and should be able to be as personal as it gets. Hence the quandry.

#2) Define support & acceptance. In any other aspect of our married life, I would define this as cooperation and active energies toward a shared goal. As much pressure as is put on "enlightened" adults to tolerate and accept alternative lifestyles, you'd think it would be good to get in there and "build the better woman" with a CDer and enjoy the play. But from Beckii_CD's point of view, I am altering the persona of my husband's feminine side. Which I would be, so I should stay out of it - I like sand!

I would like to answer Kitty's original question from my multiple choice personality perspective.

"How often is SO participation required?"

A) As often as never
B) As often as always
C) As often as makes Kitty smile
D) None of the above
E) All of the above

Hint: There is no right answer

[KimberlyS]

Tree GG, I like your move back to Kitty's original question and your multiple choice question. I think we could have 100 plus choices.

"How often is SO participation required?"

A) As often as never
B) As often as always
C) As often as makes Kitty smile
D) None of the above
E) All of the above

Hint: There is no right answer

And I agree there is no right or wrong answer and each couple needs to figure out what works for them. I can relate a lot to some of what Kitty and SO are going through. When my wife and I got down to the point of really starting to work through the CDing issues, my wife asked me a question:

I do not remember the exact wording, but it was something like:
What do you want out of me?
What type of participation?
What or how much acceptance ?

The top for me would be for her to totally accept my CDing in all ways and to partake in my CDing like we currently do most things together as a couple.

The minimum would be for her to accept that there was a feminine part of me. This was most likely the easiest for her because she already could see my feminine traits. And I said accept, not like. And that if that was all that she could accept and partake in to be able to allow me time to CD on my own with not participation on her part, accept maybe the fact that was what I was doing.

Where are we? Well we are somewhere in the middle just as most are. We are looking for a CDing lifestyle (for lack of a better term), that we are both comfortable with. And once or if we do ever reach this point I am sure it will change just like most other things do in life. In the mean time I do some cding things and some non-cding things. Even on the "CDing" outing weekends my wife and I go on, we do both CDing things and Non-CDing things. The thing that has helped a lot is she knows I need time to CD and I know she needs some of the male of me and non-cding time. And actually most of our 1 on 1 time is non-cding which is actually ok with me.

[Julie York]

I passed over this thread several times and finally have just read it all from the front to back.


Interesting situation. It has little to do with crossdressing really. That's just what is being used as the 'power play' between you both in your emotional turmoil.


Summary: You are lonely, tired and in need of support and want to feel genuinely loved for a change.

He appears to be selfish and very immature.


Doesn't have much to do with CD stuff at all really.

I wish you luck.










Then again we haven't had his side of the story.

[Nike]

Wow.

Kitty,

For some time as I have read your posts, I have felt like there was so much more beneath the surface which you were struggling with. I pray that you find the strength you need, the peace you deserve and the courage of your convictions.

Having been out to my significant other in every relationship I have been in over the past 25+ years I cannot comprehend the attitude of your husband.

The answer to "how often is SO participation required?" is up to each couple. For me I need my SO's participation in OUR relationship ALWAYS! Now I do know that you meant participation in the CD'ing activity. For me the answer lies within the relationship my Bride and I have. I Love being her Husband! I Adore Her! It gives me Great pleasure to give her some of the things she wants, and I hope, everything she Needs. Few things please me more than to give her something she wants because I believe she really "needs" to have it!

As I said, I LOVE being Her Husband. On the other hand, I also adore being Her "wife". Sometimes it's even fun to be "Her Bit.." ........ er... :redface: well, you know.

In my life, as I have said before, I tend to try to err on the side of being the Husband too much instead of erring by being the "other woman" too much.

The irony is that I know that I am accepted and LOVED however I dress because I put our Marriage Bond first and always. Who's doing what to whom and how are all incidental, because it's all MUTUAL!

I believe that in a marriage, sometimes we all do things because we know it will please our lifemate, even if it's not our "first choice".

Risking sounding like a broken record, I choose to "Make Love" to my Bride all day long, everyday. When the sex part of "Making Love" happens, it is always special, regardless of who's panties are being pulled down. :redface:

I understand that your situation is somewhat unique in that you have been "forced" by circumstance to be the bread winner in your household. I do not know how I would react if I were disabled and dependent, but I hope that I would show even more affection and appreciation to my Bride if she had to bear that burden.

Trudi

[David R]

This is for Beckii from Dannielle.Kittypw's husband I've read what you wrote to Kitty's post and you are so far out of the ballpark.first let me say I appreciate all of the posts here to Kitty and myself I probably am very self centered and selfish as far as the crossdressing goes and I don't give Kitty enough credit.I have been blessed by such a wonderful spouse I am not sure where are marriage will go from here but it won't be because she did not put most of the effort into it,We have gone through my gender identity ?s alcoholism and just plain stupidity mostly on my part I won't say that all of it is me put I will claim the lions share.She has put up with me when most others would have left and I do love her for that.Beckii you have no clue what you are talking about you must have read so much of your own thoughts and feeling's into that post it was so far out there as far as I am concerned.Anyway Kitty never tried to create the feminine me.And I wish she would force me to cd sometimes but that's not her thing and that's okay next time maybe you should keep your judgement to yourself unless you actually have some fact to back it up.Sorry if I came on strong but this is my wife and I do love her and appreciate the fact that she came into my life.Thanks for letting me rant.bye for now Dannielle/David

[Tamara Croft]

Dannielle, it took a lot of courage to come on to the forum and stand up for your wife against someone who seems extremely bitter. I applaud you for stating how it really is between you both and putting a certain person straight on a few facts. Thank you for that and I'm sure Kitty will thank you also

[Sheila]

Dannielle for your support of Kitty's post, she really did not deserve Beckii's reply. It will be interesting to see how he responds to yours and if he even begins to apologize to Kitty

Jess

[Bluebird GG]

for me i have to participate via Teriann otherwise his dressing would get boring and stale for me so participation 24/7 is a must.

[tekla west]

Rather than telling others to chime out and then - well not exactly rushing in, it took a week or so - to defend her, why did he not act right to prevent the problem in the first place? That, I might add, was totally within his power to do. Its great he can spring to her defense here, but if the home sitution was better this might not have ever come up on these boards (and as I will explain, it should not). Given all that was said, his defense of here on these boards, given his neglect of her at home, is hardly praiseworthy. Moreover, those are conversations that should have been going down beween the two of them an a marriage councilor, or minister, or whoever - but not us.

The airing of dirty linen in public is always distasteful at best, which is why decent people try hard to avoid doing it, and why other decent people try to look the other way and not notice. Because once you put it out for public consumption and comment then anyone & everyone is free to join and add what they feel moved to say.

This board is more than likely not the best spot to do such things. Its good for tips for CDs, a place to tell of our small victories, to talk about clothes, movies and other trivial amusements, and a place to share our little trips out and about. As such, it tends to be a poor place for marriage therapy - particularly when its so one sided. Heck, any public forum is a bad place for it no matter if its CD board or a Rod and Gun board. If for not other notion than rational and reasonable people do not put this kind of interpersonal mess on view for all to see.

Good God, that’s why such sessions with thearipists, priests, ministers and the like are always confidential. We don’t want to know - not should we - that you are too busy satisfying yourself to pay attention to your wife. You’re lucky she came here I guess instead of doing what a lot of women and men in that sitution do, which is head on down the road and find someone who cares about them. Women taken for granted are gone, and from the sound of it, she may well have stayed too long as it is - sure sounds a lot like what she is saying and thinking.

You should be absolutely humiliated that your wife has to troll with anonymous (and we pretty much are) postings on the internet to find some comfort, some sympathy, and someone who cares. That is not worthy of any of praise, it is simply shameful.

Don’t stick up for her in here. Try being a stand-up guy in real life, then it will not come to this. You have a do-right woman there. Do the right thing - and soon - or she’s going be long gone. That’s just the way the world goes round.

Because along with all that advice, good, bad or indifferent, I’m sure there were more than a few PMs that basically said, “Hey, I can treat you better than that.” In fact, it would be hard not to.

[Satrana]

The airing of dirty linen in public is always distasteful at best, which is why decent people try hard to avoid doing it, and why other decent people try to look the other way and not notice. Because once you put it out for public consumption and comment then anyone & everyone is free to join and add what they feel moved to say.

I agree, this whole thread has been wierd from start to finish and I am amazed at the motivations on display. I cannot get rid of the feeling that there is something terribly wrong going on here. It felt like I was reading a tabloid magazine. I think it best the couple sought professional help....and quickly.

[Sheila]

The airing of dirty linen in public is always distasteful at best, which is why decent people try hard to avoid doing it, and why other decent people try to look the other way and not notice.

I do so hope that you are not attempting to imply that Kitty is not a decent person as she is one of the most decent caring human beings on this board, if I have misunderstood you I apologize

[kittypw GG]

I understand your points Telka but as you know that most thearpists don't even understand crossdressing or even gender identity issues. I know that a lot of our issuses are separate from the crossdressing but how do you get to that point. We have been to a few counselors some have told me that my husband is a sexual deviant. Most think that it is beyond their ability because they focus on the crossdressing being the major problem. Most of the time we can't get past that point. I have really been let down by the mental health community. I must be under the mistaken assumption that men who crossdress could and would have had some of the same expirences and could reach out to my hubby in a way that he would understand. Hell we don't even know any other crossdressers in our community and we live in the largest city in our state. It isn't easy to find a group of married crossdressers to take example from. I still don't regret putting my question in this section. I have had some lovely responses, great ideas and generally good feeling.

I am sorry that my life has been such a burden on some of you or made you feel disgust. Next time I'll start my own panty chafing thread. Just to make some of you who don't want to hear about real life struggles with marriage and crossdressing feel good.

Again thank for all of the great comments and advice. I still would feel lost without you. Kitty

[KimberlyS]

First, to the best of my knowledge, this is a support and help forum. But it has been awhile since I read the forum guidelines.

Second, what this forum sees is often just the tip of what is actually going on within a couples lives. Most people and couples are going through a lot more within their whole lives not just the CD. And everything within our lives is interrelated.

Third, while most people do a fairly good job at presenting an overview of what they want to share or what they would like to have help with: It is just that and overview and their overview from their prospective. There are always other details and often a life time of details, past relationships, work and other stress, money and many other related information. While we can try to put ourself in their place, their is really no way we can as we are not living their life.

Forth, many of us, including myself, refer people to third parties for help. But finding the right third party that can relate and help out both spouses, the CDing issues, and other issues; is not always an easy task. I know of one (1) person in a city of 110k plus that specializes in gender issues, with very limited CDing experience. I know the first counselor we went to quoted out of the DSM and then proceed to fully tell me I was wrong, and sin full without knowing anything about my CDing. And the other two I had were quick to quote the DSM also but were easier to work with. One even said she had experience in gender issues. She had done research, and have several gay people in the past. So while gender, it was not related to my situation. And I have heard of many stores that the professional counselor just made things worse for the relationship than it was before because there is so little knowledge of TG issues withing the mental health field.

Fifth, we all have our short comings, and most of us already know what most of ours are. So why do you need to point them out. Lets work on the issues that the poster asked about or real issues if you see it as something else. And lets hopefully do this in a positive way. If we wanted negative we would not be here, we would be back in our situation or issue and not ask for help. But we are striving to do and be better.

My wife and I know Kitty and Dannielle personally. And while I would say we are not in the middle of this, but are close on the sidelines. And I would say we only know a slice of the bread of this and all of you know a crumb. For most of us, this forum only sees a small part of who we are. Like I said in an earlier post. I did not realize this post had gone so far otherwise I would have been posting more. I guess I am busy with my own life like most of us should be. And talk about feeling helpless.

I know it can be easy to give advice when we only know a few details. And I know I fall in to this also. But I normally try to assume very little, and what I do I state. And I try to give more general advice, or what worked for myself or my marriage, or what worked for someone else, and in that context. All information on this site is advice and we all need to be able to read and use what may help and discard what is not related to our situation or useful to us.

Enjoy your journey through life. You only get one.

KimberlyS-CD

[Sheila]

KimberlyS

[GG Vanya]

Quote from tekla:

The airing of dirty linen in public is always distasteful at best, which is why decent people try hard to avoid doing it, and why other decent people try to look the other way and not notice. Because once you put it out for public consumption and comment then anyone & everyone is free to join and add what they feel moved to say.

OK, I am compelled to respond to this.

This forum is for *support* for CDs, their family and friends. Silly me, I assumed that meant more than just helping decide which color panties one should wear on any given day. :rolleyes:

If you consider Kitty's request for help in this thread to be dirty linen, what the hell would you classify those couples who battle it out via this forum? And yes, there have been a few of those lately.

As dirty linen goes, I'd have to say Kitty's thread is nothing more than one day's wear. Hell, there aren't even any skid marks. :rolleyes:

As Kitty said, I guess we should all now return to supporting those with panty chafing problems or how to properly tuck and avoid the heart breaking issues that couples face in struggling with acceptance of one partner's gender duality.

[MsJanessa]

Interesting thread----but ultimatly it is totally up to the two people involved---I hope that our collective comments and our private e-mails to you have been helpful. Good luck.

[Nike]

"Good God, that’s why such sessions with thearipists, priests, ministers and the like are always confidential. We don’t want to know - not should we - that you are too busy satisfying yourself to pay attention to your wife. You’re lucky she came here I guess instead of doing what a lot of women and men in that sitution do, which is head on down the road and find someone who cares about them. Women taken for granted are gone, and from the sound of it, she may well have stayed too long as it is - sure sounds a lot like what she is saying and thinking.

You should be absolutely humiliated that your wife has to troll with anonymous (and we pretty much are) postings on the internet to find some comfort, some sympathy, and someone who cares. That is not worthy of any of praise, it is simply shameful.

Don’t stick up for her in here. Try being a stand-up guy in real life, then it will not come to this. You have a do-right woman there. Do the right thing - and soon - or she’s going be long gone. That’s just the way the world goes round.

Because along with all that advice, good, bad or indifferent, I’m sure there were more than a few PMs that basically said, “Hey, I can treat you better than that.” In fact, it would be hard not to." posted by Tekla West

Although I disagree with Tekla that this forum is more for the distraction of entertainment and superficial banter, indicated in her first three paragraphs, I commend her for the rest of the post which is pasted above. It is honest and direct. It speaks to the core of what every human NEEDS. We all need to feel loved. We all need to know that we matter.

One very old principle applys here.

"Whatsoever ye sow, so shall ye reap"

In other words, if one isn't making an investment, an effort, they won't get a damned thing back.

Based on all I have read on these boards from both Danielle and Kitty, one of them is investing her energy, putting forth the effort and the "account" is showing no return. All investments that are retained, show some level of return, show some interest and hope for a better future.

[KrazyKat]

Kittypw and Danielle, May a mist of LOVE be wrapped around you both for the remainder of the year!!!


Hoping the healing can begin for an awesome 2007!!

[JulieCDorlando]

Hello,
I am not sure how this is going to end up being read, but would like to interject something here.
If some people claim that this thread has gone on long enough, then why pray tell are they continually reading this thread, and making waves with their postings? Just like anyone would do when a bad televison show is on, turn the thing off and do something else. so should you do the same here. Stop reading threads that irritate you. Many people seek out advice from those they have an understanding of some degree with issues dealing with gender. Often enough there are not many certified therapist capable of dealing with complex issues as this, and those that are I often wonder if they got their diploma out of a gum machine at the local Wal - Mart. Fortunately there seems to be a lot of genuine concern here on this site for those that are confused about gender, and orher issues that some of us can relate to and are willing to help those in need.
As far as I am concerned there wasn't any airing of dirty laundry. One of our own that was hurting and reaching out for comfort, support and advice. I believe most here rose to meet that challenge and all of those folk should be wll commended.
Opinions are like sphincter muscles, everyone has one and everyone thinks the others stink. :2c:

[tekla west]

Let me put it this way.

If Kitty had written “When I was taking a shower this morning I felt a small lump in my breast” how many people would have said anything other than “Girl, get to a doctor, NOW!” Why, because we are not qualified to deal with that.

Or...

... had she confessed to thinking that life was not worth going on with, not worth living, and that she was feeling suicidal, would we not have told her to find professional help post haste? I’m sure.

How is any of this any different?

The fact is, that at least here in the States, to be a marriage councilor, it takes a Master Degree in Family Therapy, and a long residency before you can get your licence or credential. Once you have that you would never do this in public, on the web based forum, for all to see. That would be a violation of all medical standards, practices, and ethics. Moreover, they would pull that licence from you faster than you could imagine if you engaged in such ad hoc counseling efforts.

And - this is not a minor point either - anyone who does this for real would have at least got both sides of the story first. More than likely in one-on-one sessions with each of them, and then with sessions with both of them, before even beginning to formulate any conclusions - conclusions that people in here leaped to like Michael Jordan going to the rim.

Such therapy is often a team effort. To wit: I’m sure that a financial councilor would have been involved very fast, as there are money problems, and most divorces begin and end with money more than any other single reason. Among other things - for those who actually read it - there are far more issues here than just the CD deal.

And yes, it’s a support site, but support for what? All issues are not equal. So, the process of coming out, something that most of us are familiar with, something that we have a real life background with, something most of us share is something that we can and should offer support on. But involvement in a deteriorating marriage is more than likely not the kind of thing we can, or should offer support for. We can - and should - plead that they find someone trained to offer real help instead of just mouthing some platitudes that were based on preconceived notions and not the result of a therapeutic analysis.

There is a time and a place for everything, and this may well not be the place for any of us to interfere or intrude on what is a private and personal matter that requires professional help.

It never ceases to amaze me that people who know better then to pretend they are board certified surgeons and do a little amateur open heart surgery on the side, or who are aware that they are not ontologists and can not treat cancer in their spare time, feel that in the realm of counseling, therapy, and mental health that they can participate in what is a highly trained and skilled profession where the stakes are very high.

In real life I don’t know of a single person who ever got in the middle of a couple’s relationship problems who did not regret it. I fail to see how this is any different.

[Sheila]

If some people claim that this thread has gone on long enough, then why pray tell are they continually reading this thread, and making waves with their postings? Just like anyone would do when a bad televison show is on, turn the thing off and do something else. so should you do the same here. Stop reading threads that irritate you. Many people seek out advice from those they have an understanding of some degree with issues dealing with gender. Often enough there are not many certified therapist capable of dealing with complex issues as this, and those that are I often wonder if they got their diploma out of a gum machine at the local Wal - Mart. Fortunately there seems to be a lot of genuine concern here on this site for those that are confused about gender, and orher issues that some of us can relate to and are willing to help those in need.
As far as I am concerned there wasn't any airing of dirty laundry. One of our own that was hurting and reaching out for comfort, support and advice. I believe most here rose to meet that challenge and all of those folk should be wll commended.
Opinions are like sphincter muscles, everyone has one and everyone thinks the others stink. :2c:

well said

[Tamara Croft]

Ok so here is the question. How often should a spouse or girlfriend have to participate to keep their CD happy? How often should our CD's be the man in our lives? The flip side of the coin is just as important don't you think?

This is the question, so can we cut out all the damn psycho babble, cus I'm getting sick of reading it.... it's NOT relevant to the question :rolleyes:

STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!

[Sharon]

Just a note to you all who refuse to respect the thread to remain on topic, your posts are being deleted from this point on.