in my own response to that i would have to say they need t study the history books because in japan or china i cant remember which the men play all the roles in plays even the females second in scotland men wear kilts which if you look at them are basicly a skirt "sorry to those irish"and look at a undercover police officer on sting for hookers they used to use men to do that
I had a discussion about this just last night... It is just societal norms for the current time period. It has varied over the years and will continue to vary.
The main source of the problem, in my humble opinion, stems from ignorance. The more educated a person becomes the more understanding he/she becomes....but unfortunately we have a lot of stupid people surviving in the world.:D
Shock factor
Just think about our reaction when we see a person missing a limb, disfigured by an injury...It because they, we are different...you know, black & white factor...
That is the one thing I have learned from all my experiences after coming to terms with my dressing, my wifes dislike, later acceptance...TOLERANCE !!! I will admit as shameful as I see it now I was one who was one of the first to poke fun at some one different...now I am one of those that is different...funny how things come home to you...Lessons of life 099...a bone head coarse in life :2c:
I care less and less about my preference of dressing like a woman. I'm coming out to more and more of my friends, and no one seem to take any offence of it. At most they just tell me how comfortable I seem lately. Off course I'm not going to shoot myself in the head and be Sejd when I am working as a business person, but stil, now my hair is really long and I wear two earings. No one seems to care though, they probably just find me exentric or hippie, and that's somehow OK. for us, off course it doesn't feel weird, but for so called "normal" people, yes, I can understand they find it somewhat weird.
hugs
Sejd
Hi Sonya,My opinion is that people look at crossdressing weird because they assume that anybody who would go that far must have all sorts of hidden and diabolical problems.In the U.S.A. a lot of people don't like what they perceive as "queers" and "sissies".The situation may be improving slightly but you can't always reason with those people.At least crossdressers have become a visible minority in the past 15 or 20 years.I mean I first found out about the availability of all this online Transgender stuff on a cable TV network news special about 4 years ago.The news report was sympathetic and pro TG. The same news report might not have been broadcast in 1965.I think many people react with fear and anger to things that strike them as "strange". Samantha
:Angry3: What upsets me is women can wear mens clothes pants slacks shirts shoes
and society doesn't care,yet we can not do with out getting the evil looks
and stares. I know I can't pass but still it just doesn't seem fair that I should
have to to be able to go out to a movie, dinner , dance or just to buy groceries. In my house I do 90 % of the cooking ,all the laundry,especially
the hand wash ,and 75% of the actual vacuuming and dusting.
Yet I can't be accepted outside in a skirt or nice dress.
THanks Girls just needed to vent a little been a long week.
Last edited by tommi; 01-19-2007 at 12:23 PM.
In the 1700's and up till sometime in the 1800's men used to wear lace blouses, tights, wigs, makeup, and high heels. This was considered as standard men fashion. Then sometime in the mid 1800's this all started to change. Now if a man would to wear the same items in public, he would be ridiculed for it. It is no longer considered as standard men fashion.
Gosh JoAnn,
So I can tell folks I'm going through my Louis XIV period ?
Roberta
[COLOR=Red]Open your Heart :
The standard answer is ignorance. But I think we need to look a little closer at that. It's just one of those things you hear growing up. And since a lot of people haven't (knowingly?) met a crossdresser or really seen what crossdressing truly is, they have no reason to doubt what they've heard. After all, how many things that you "know" have you questioned? Heck, that's what makes Mythbusters so popular. We don't question what we don't know not to be so.
Androgynes: the quantum bits of the gender binary.
Yep, men used to wear wigs, lace and ruffles. Guess we went backward, huh?
Second star to the right and straight on till morning
Crossdressing movies, Some like it hot, Tootsie, Rocky horror picture show, Mrs Doubtfire, Big Mamas house, these are the icons of CDing. Know very many if any movies that take TG/TS and crossdressing seriously? Then there is the other side, Friday the 13 series, Psycho and Dr Jeckle and Sister Hide. It seems that either CDing is a laugh or done by the insane.
Crossdressing movies, Look at this http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Drag.../2OZPJKOZ8AWPN and
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/...ssdressing.htm
look at this for a history of CD in films. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-d...and_television
This is part if not all of the reason. Men in dresses gets laughs. The three stooges, Milton Berle, (Charlie’s aunt), Arnold Schwarzenegger, Dustin Hoffman, Robin Williams, Jamie Farr (MASH) just about all comics and comedic actors were in drag in movies. They all did it all for laughs, so that is all the general public sees. And none were convincing (except Tootsie), little if any make up, breast forms and no real attempt to pass.
So change the media and movies and you change the way people look at men in dresses.
In some countries it is not funny they beat and or kill crossdressers. So it is not too bad in the US for Crossdressers!
Do you know that some men (crewmen I think) got in dresses on the Titanic to get on one of the few life rafts? I do not blame them. Most people died. There has been a few movies that had men in dresses to survive and not for laughs like some like it hot. Did anyone see the Titanic movie and did it have any men in drag trying to get on a life raft? It should have been in the movie it was part of the tragedy.
Last edited by janedoe311; 01-19-2007 at 01:21 PM.
They were not dressing up as women, a big difference.Originally Posted by JoAnnDallas
Jane says: They were not dressing up as women, a big difference.
Ummmmm, yah. It is not the objects of the fetish as much as it is the the underlying pathology.
Those who understand and accept, or at least tolerate men in tights are either one of us or have less struggles and inner demons, I posit. That the larger society has issues with men as women may be an obstacle and may be unfair, let's be honest; we are behind the curve on this one. We are not mainstream in the sexual development demographic. Whether this is good or bad, right or wrong ... from a philosophical point of view, is still being hashed out, neh? I, too, would love more than anything to walk around 24/7 as Dominique, but the fact that I can do so now in more places than ever before and with many more protections and conventions IN MY FAVOR does suggest to me that things are not so bad.
Someone has a signature that reads: 'It was easier to crossdress under the Taliban' or such, and someone else on another thread made the statement that the USA was now under Taliban influence.
I just need to point out to everyone that we could not do this and be as safe in many other countries, some of them called civilized. Please bear that in mind.
Every man should learn how to walk in high heels
Yes, is crossdressing for some being able to wear the frilly, colorfully clothes and skirts without being "noticed"? As opposed to some of us who are not happy with our gender and self?
Because, if this society was more forgiving then men wearing colorful and frilly clothes would not be a big deal and not be crossdressing. Greek men have “skirts” and of course there are Kilts. But both are not acceptable in the US as daily wear.
So what is the problem with this society and clothes? Come on it is just clothes! Women can wear any male or female clothes, without being kicked out of restaurants or being laughed at or beat up. So why not men?
So what is the problem with this society and clothes? Come on it is just clothes! Women can wear any male or female clothes, without being kicked out of restaurants or being laughed at or beat up. So why not men?
Jane, Robin Williams once quipped -- and I am paraphrasing -- 'if a women wears a man's suit, they call it Armani. If a guy wears a dress, it's called "perverted."'
I scratch my head on that one, really I do. I also believe that society at large just has this block about guys going around looking like girls. Why is it acceptable and even marketable to have women wear pants shirts and neckties? Maybe they get a pass because it looks So Cute™ or seems less, I dunno, threatening? I must admit I haven't a clue. Maybe a girl in suit with tie is endearing ... until she becomes the office boss bitch. But a guy getting into something sexy or frilly, well, all bets are off because everything is upside down.
Just my :2c:
Every man should learn how to walk in high heels
"So I can tell folks I'm going through my Louis XIV period"
Yes, well just don't lose your head over it.
And there is a difference beween fashion and style and crossing gender lines.
What we do is one of the most harmless acts that exist. No one gets hurt and it makes us happy!
sorry gurls, but so many of you who do crossdress have a hard time accepting that you do it so if you find it strange, what the heck is the rest of society meant to think. Just my :2c:
Jess
I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me
People have been conditioned to look at it as weird. The same way they have been trained to accept woman in pants as normal, they have been trained to see men in dresses as abnormal. Conditioning.
I know this is a very simple outlook but I believe it never the less.
Hugs
Lovely Rita
The journey is about learning how to love and to do it with all our heart.
The Revolution moves forward!!!!!
aspiring to be "part of the cure and not the disease."
to quote Cold Play.
Becoming the person I was created to be
not the person you expect me to be
"Girls Just Want to Have FUN!"
You don't need an excuse to Love just an opportunity!
Well if your wearing 8 inch heels then that's probably why they are looking at you wierdly!! Lol.
And who cares what people think anyway!!! If I'm read... I don't care! As long as no one is hurt!!! (I'm refering to them not me!! Hehe) Have a right to wear what I want where I want!
Love Karren
weird (wîrd)
adj. weird·er, weird·est
Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange.
Thats us...LOL Like it or not we are way outside the norm, very rare too. So yeap we are weird according to societal norms.
Once a long time ago in a galaxy far away, women never wore pants, (exception was in some circles riding horses.).
So when they started wearing pants did they get the problems men get for wearing dresses? And if so how long did it take to be accepted?
I do not know if anyone does. Of course all women wear pants but not all men will wear dresses. Oh well it was a thought.
I believe we've found the connection between female and male and that doesn't set right with the world. I accept who I am and if it doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal?
Lanore
Hello,
To put my two cents worth in on this subject of why women can wear mens wear but men can not wear womens wear. If I may I would like to presnt my case in a two fold reason. #1 I do recall a time in my youth when girls were not allowed to wear pants while in school (public school). On cold days they can wear pants UNDER thier dresses/skirts, but once inside the school buliding they had to remove the pants.
From what I been told, women never wore any pants up until World War II for reasons being that these ladies worked in the factory jobs manufacturing tools of war, in addition to the everyday things that use to be made here in the USA. Now that the war was over there was a big stink over the issue of women still preferring to wear pants/slacks/trousers. But you know what? Those women persevered no matter what society said about them. It took a few years before society finally relented and allowed women to wear pants. Women can wear pants because they endured the snide comments and remarks that society dished out against them Can we as CD's stand up to the same persecutions, and prejudices? I some how doubt it.
Reason #2 . And even though they do have a previledge of wearing mens wear, they STILL LOOK LIKE WOMEN. Some women that wear mens wear have no desire to alter or otherwise change their gender. Where as We CD's take our enjoyment to a level no one dared ever before. CD's try to look, act, and become women for a period of time.
We are challenging the traditional standards of society. Yes some CD's feel that there is a double standard in place. But will anyone(CD,TG) take the initative to step out first and begin to change society"s outlook instead of crying out that life isnt fair? :2c:
I want to throw my :2c: in and I think most of you are way off base and may not like my answer that much. I know I prefer the ignorance, social conditioning answer better but here goes. I think we bother people on 2 basic levels.
First, the instinctive, reptilian part of our brain is hard wired with certain basic responses. One of those is to respond differently to male and female members of our own species. Case in point, unless you're a dog breeder or something, you can't tell a male dog from a female without checking their parts but other dogs sure can. We can, under normal circumstances, easily differentiate male from female in our own species. When we go out in public we present a conflicted image that creates uncertainty and fear on a subconcious level in folks who aren't used to us. Fright usually leads to anger and possibly worse.
Second, we spend our childhoods trying to develop a reliable view of the world that provides a basis for our decisions and interactions for the rest of our lives. Part of that world view is the way we see gender roles. Case in point, our religous beliefs. Deeply religious people believe God exists in the same way I believe in gravity. When their belief in God is challenged it alters their view of existence. They no longer trust the world to be stable (gravity stopped working!) When we challenge accepted gender roles it creates uncertainty and and fear on a more concious level in folks who aren't used to us. Fright usually leads to anger and possibly worse.
From a lot of peoples point of view we are disturbing existence as they know it and they can't handle it. Remember what happened to others who challenged the world this way. Jesus was crucified. Darwin was vilified. Galileo, Newton, Martin Luther King and on and on...
Be careful!!!
who wants to be normal? Not me!
-Susan
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