Feminism

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Funny, my experience, if that's what we're basing some of this is on has been totally different.
I have worked in more than one establishment where a man was paid more than his female counterparts.
I have seen more than one man promoted when in fact he should have been fired for grossly inappropriate conduct and incompetence.
I have, also, seen more than one woman fired when she did not deserve to be fired.
I have been the recipient of sexual harassment but had my supervisor (a woman) do nothing about it. And, the individual was a scary person with a criminal and drug history (and I was working at a large, public university at the time). Btw, said individual blew his brains out one day at his mommy's house--nice.
I have worked in jobs that men would generally not work in because the pay is low and the work is emotionally draining (i.e., health and human services) for over 25 plus years.
I have CLAWED my way to the top. The first time I broke over 10K a year was my first year of grad school 1991.
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that gender inequality exists in the work place. I've seen it; I've experienced it. Women DO NOT earn what men earn, dollar for dollar. And fields dominated by women continue to be MUCH lower in pay than fields dominated by men. Examples: teaching, social work, child care, home health aides, nursing, hair dressing, nail technicians.
Name ONE equivalent field where men are paid a paltry amount for their hard work? And tell me what man (though, yes there are few) are willing to undertake the tasks of cleaning bedpans, scrubbing floors, cleaning toilets. Are you telling me these fields are dominated by men? Who get equal pay to the women who work in these fields? If so, you're on crack.
We will never agree on this topic. And it's threads like this that I consider defecting to other websites where the ability to have true intellectual discourse exists.
Kew

*gets several bandaids for her brain as it is bleeding profusely now*

[Satrana]

They DO get paid less generally. They don't have the same opportunities. In some places in the world women are held in the same esteem as livestock. Things are better in the western world, but that is ONLY because women got together to do something about it and found male allies who agree.

Kerrianna,

This is my last word on this before others start using personal insults. Naturally I am talking about the Western nations not the rest of the world where women often are disadvantaged. Thats a taken.

We seem to be confusing what the feminists argue and what the statistics show. Feminists argue that women get paid 30% less for doing the same job as a male worker. This is wrong and easily disproven.

For feminists to use annual income charts as proof of unequal pay is false. If women across the board were indeed being discriminated against in such an obvious and profound way then there woukld be millions of discrimination cases going through our courts at any given point in time. And everyone would personally know many, many women who were being discriminated against on their salaries.

What is true is that there are more women in lower paying jobs than there are men. However where is the discrimination in this? Men are not forcing women into these jobs, women choose to apply for them. Why do fewer men not choose to apply for them - because a man is valued for the money he makes, this is an important indicator is his manhood, so from his point of view he would rather stay unemployed and hold out for a better job. Many women though will more likely accept a low paying job to earn money, they are not career orientated and their value as women is not linked to their income. Of course they would like to earn more, but there is not the same gender inhibition that men experience.

Now things are changing, women are becoming more career orientated but that does not change the fact that men are not intersted in low paying jobs except of course if they are a route to a higher paying job. So what is happening now is low paying jobs are being outsourced to third world workers who certainly do earn less.

You cannot blame men if women choose to settle for low paying jobs. That is an individual choice. You can however change the gender system which conditions men to value work and careers so highly often to the detriment of family life. Once there is equality in career expectations between the genders, once men are no longer valued so much for their income, then you will see an equilization in the genders across low and high paying jobs.

It is the gender system, how we bring up boys and girls, that produces different job expectations and different approaches to work and family life. Legislation can and has stopped discrimination but our gender system, especially that for men, remains largely intact.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

For feminists to use annual income charts as proof of unequal pay is false. If women across the board were indeed being discriminated against in such an obvious and profound way then there woukld be millions of discrimination cases going through our courts at any given point in time. And everyone would personally know many, many women who were being discriminated against on their salaries.

What is true is that there are more women in lower paying jobs than there are men. However where is the discrimination in this? Men are not forcing women into these jobs, women choose to apply for them. Why do fewer men not choose to apply for them - because a man is valued for the money he makes, this is an important indicator is his manhood, so from his point of view he would rather stay unemployed and hold out for a better job. Many women though will more likely accept a low paying job to earn money, they are not career orientated and their value as women is not linked to their income. Of course they would like to earn more, but there is not the same gender inhibition that men experience.

Now things are changing, women are becoming more career orientated but that does not change the fact that men are not intersted in low paying jobs except of course if they are a route to a higher paying job. So what is happening now is low paying jobs are being outsourced to third world workers who certainly do earn less.

You cannot blame men if women choose to settle for low paying jobs. That is an individual choice. You can however change the gender system which conditions men to value work and careers so highly often to the detriment of family life. Once there is equality in career expectations between the genders, once men are no longer valued so much for their income, then you will see an equilization in the genders across low and high paying jobs.

All I can say is "WOW!"

Kew

[SissyJackie]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

I love You Kew I know exactly why I emulate you.

:2c: Oh and about another reply by someone else. Salaries are not based on time. Hourly wages are however comparing the number of hours between the genders might suggest to me that women out perform men.
I guess I revealed I am TS ..Naaaah, not embarrassed but proud of it.

[Tree GG]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

Funny

However, on the double income thing there is some economic research (based on supply & demand) that the two "full wage" incomes of the past 20 or 30 years is a large contributing factor to excessive inflation and self-perpetuation of the system. In the book "Two Income Trap" they surmise that the demand for more affluent suburban, housing exceeded supply as yuppies entered the work force. With two income, professional families, the prices could go up and up for housing and services. Who benefitted? Banks, insurance companies, land developers. Once the financial committment is made, there's the trap. Both partners must continue to work to afford the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, even when the kids arrive.

That is just one consideration of inflation and two income families and certainly not the only factor. HOWEVER, I know 3 women personally who were abandoned - yes abandoned - by their husbands just because he didn't want to be married anymore, or found someone younger, or was a lunatic. Regardless, all 3 ended up in bankruptcy - but the husband's did not. Two of the 3 had school age children to care for and rec'd no, zero, child support. (The x husband changed jobs so frequently the gov't couldn't keep track of him long enough to garnish wages OR the employer would pay under the table) or the county gov't just couldn't get around to it. Had these women not been employed, think how much worse their situations would have been.

One of these husbands - who is a fireman by the way & suppose to be a hero - ran up $26,000 in credit card debt that he obtained 6 mos before he left (not in a joint named account but my friend still was responsible for 1/2 the debt).

I'm seeing some pretty big inequalities in those situations.

[Stephenie S]

I will echo, "WOW"!!

I have not read such BS in many years. One would assume that comming from a group that seems to want to emulate women, there would be a bit more understanding of what it means to be a woman.

Perhaps the reason so many on this forum want to be women only part time is because, deep down, they DO know what a short end of the stick women really get in this society.

Listen to the GGs who have answered this thread. They, after all, are the ONLY ones with any real experience here.

Kew has pleaded for some understanding of FACTS rather than emotional retoric. Please listen to her.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Alice Torn]

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women RULE over them. O my people. they which lead you, cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.....What mean you, that you beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor.... Moreover, the Lord sayeth, Because the daughters of Zion are HAUGHTY.....ISAIAH 3:12, 15, 16. Written about 2500 yrs ago, sounds a bit like today. Personally, like I have said, I have no problem, with equal work, equal pay. Justice knows know color, or gender, but, common sense is nor so common. I agree with Salandra, that each person, is a unique individual, with needs, and rights, but, rights are abused, with responsibility, and propriety. I was a gravedigger, for three years, digging with pick, and handshovel. There were not lines of females, trying to get my job, and, it was only $4.00 an hour, just above min. wage.

[SissyJackie]

I will echo, "WOW"!!

I have not read such BS in many years. One would assume that comming from a group that seems to want to emulate women, there would be a bit more understanding of what it means to be a woman.

Perhaps the reason so many on this forum want to be women only part time is because, deep down, they DO know what a short end of the stick women really get in this society.

Listen to the GGs who have answered this thread. They, after all, are the ONLY ones with any real experience here.

Kew has pleaded for some understanding of FACTS rather than emotional retoric. Please listen to her.

Lovies,
Stephenie

I see a parallel between the varied opinions in this thread and the thread questioning CD’submissive tendencies.

If we were all to accept the labels TG/CD as just one who dresses in as the opposite gender and a TS/TG as one who truly is Transgendered regardless of procedures and/or surgery to correct it then maybe in that thread the questions should be… Which are you CD/TV or TS/TG? And then “Are you submissive and to what degree” The reason I bring up submissiveness here is because the core of submission is total RESPECT and complete TRUST. Many men have a tough time with this and I see opinions of men who just happen to wear a dress once in a while.

I am TS by the above definition and have struggled with it for more than a half a century. I would wish that life on no one but at the same time I am proud to be TS and to have a good long hard look at both sides.

Generally women’s’ verbal, analytical skills and work ethic exceed those of their male peers at work and still the Glass Ceiling and the Good Old Boys clubs still exist in the workplace and many men including GM here have a difficult time coming to grips with that. To be fair many men here and in the general population can deal with it but the Testosterone factor is still there.

To say that there is complete equality in the workforce is hogwash and indefensible. We don’t need to post hundreds of internet links on either side of the fence because a lot of the stuff is subjective instead of objective anyway. There are exceptions to the rule and there are some women that do not pull their fair share but there are men that behave the same.

Talk about a microcosm of society in this forum. In two topics I see the GG’s TS/TG vs. the Men regardless of what skirt length they chose for the day.. Sorry but just my :2c: and no reason for anyone to get their panties in a knot. :D

[Elizabeth Ann]

I'm a bit astounded by this thread. I'm very new here, but I didn't expect in a forum like this to see such blindness to the difficult position of women in society. It is hard to believe that anyone who functions in this society cannot see the struggle they face.

Sure, there has been progress in the workplace, but does anyone really believe that women have an equal footing in society? Its going to take generations of changes in attitudes, traditions, social institutions, and laws.

Anyone remember that old riddle: Father and son in an accident. Father is DOA but son is rushed to operating room. Surgeon takes one look and says, "I can't operate on this man. He's my son." How can this be? Answer below.

During the hight of feminism, I remember once remarking to my wife that I couldn't understand why women were not more radical than they were. She replied, "that's because you were not raised as a woman."

Answer to the riddle: The surgeon is a woman.

[Christina Nicole]

This topic is a lose-lose proposition. Most of the analysis of the data is incomplete as the researchers do not document their assumptions, thus the reader either accepts the results at face value, has to engage in the difficult task of norming the data, or worse using the data 'raw.' Data of this sort is also difficult to fully norm quantitatively as there isn't quite enough data, so some of the norming is done quantitatively, which is subject to the prejudges of the analysts. The analysis of this subject alone would be a master's thesis in statistics and I'm not doing the work for free.

What's left after the data is rendered suspect what remains are anecdotal stories, which are misleading since the sample set is skewed. The other remainder is akin to 'religious fever,' which you can't argue against.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Dasein9]

I, like a few others here, am astounded by the utter lack of understanding of the female/feminine experience that some here demonstrate by their words.

Christina's correct. Not only do most analysts not record their assumptions, but they also frequently don't even recognise that they have them.

Like the assumption that legal equality is all that feminism's about, for instance, and the assumption that what feminists want is to be more like men. Implicit in much of this discussion is the rather odd notion that the male/masculine experience is some kind of benchmark toward which women are aiming. For many FTM's that may be the case. For female feminists, it's a great deal more complicated than that.

[marie354]

My SO has observed this in the nursing field. A male nurse, just out of school started off making more than she was and she had been there for 5 years.

[battybattybats]

Wow, not the reaction I thought this thread would get.

I want to say a few things.
I feel that I am a feminist and I do see much disadvantage to women where I am. I am also a masculinist and I see a lot of disadvantage towards men where I am. I do not see that it is at all important who is more disadvantaged as all of the disadvantage is sexist and should be universally opposed.

I hear lots of sexist comments from young women over the last 10 years, 'because I'm a girl' is a phrase I've heard countless times to denote special privaledge in all sorts of arenas though most often in social situations or relationships. I see lots of t-shirts with logos saying things like 'boys are stupid' and so on. Their main comment if I pull them up on it is that as men have discriminated against women in the past then they deserve it! There is also a much lower unemployment rate amongst young women in the area BUT... they are all service and counter jobs! This is still sexism though isnt it.

Sure there are subsets in any ideology that are extreme to the point of nonsense and they can hurt the cause.
Surely we all should be ready to fight discrimination and inequality wherever they are if we want to not be discriminated against or to be judghed unequal?

[noname]

Many diverse comments here formed from personal experience.

Their main comment if I pull them up on it is that as men have discriminated against women in the past then they deserve it! There is also a much lower unemployment rate amongst young women in the area BUT... they are all service and counter jobs! This is still sexism though isnt it.

Some job is better than no job. I'm not saying that women taking counter jobs is a good thing. Certainly sometimes we have to take what we can get, but that doesn't mean it's fair. ( I say some job vs. no job as someone who's been looking for work since Feb 06. This can happen when you have a good job and your specialized. )

I would like to add that you don't see many women out digging ditches, fixing sewer lines, or roofing homes. Nor do you see women activist fighting to get women these positions. It's kind of like how the media plays up how women are not taking up science and engeering jobs and how that can be fixed. It's funny you don't see the same initiative to get men doing dangerous jobs inside and working at a counter, or why more men are not taking adminstrative jobs.

Just saying.

Surely we all should be ready to fight discrimination and inequality wherever they are if we want to not be discriminated against or to be judghed unequal?

Agreed, any discrimination is a bad deal for anyone, and to punish one group for the sins of another generation is wrong.

Peace love and happiness.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I would like to add that you don't see many women out digging ditches, fixing sewer lines, or roofing homes. Nor do you see women activist fighting to get women these positions. It's kind of like how the media plays up how women are not taking up science and engeering jobs and how that can be fixed. It's funny you don't see the same initiative to get men doing dangerous jobs inside and working at a counter, or why more men are not taking adminstrative jobs

There may not be "many" but there are those advocating and assisting women to get those types of jobs you refer to:


http://www.wisecampaign.org.uk/

http://www.hardhattedwomen.org/ABOUTUS/history.asp

http://www.tradeswomennow.org/

http://www.itdg.org/?id=region_south...n_construction

http://www.nawic.org/

http://www.womenworking.org/

http://www.pwcusa.org/

http://www.nawicfresno.org/

http://www.professionalroofing.net/p...00/feature.asp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womansho...1_fri_01.shtml

http://www.iphe.org.uk/wip.html

http://www.wamt.org/splash

http://www.tradeswomen.net/

And some instead are cleaning bed pans, scrubbing floors, wiping dirty noses...

Honestly, folks!

Truly I've lost some of my respect for the CD community.

[kerrianna]

I thought about this thread when I read this in a story tonight. It's from a story called "The Party" by Elizabeth Berg (New Sudden Fiction - W.W. Norton & Co. 2007)
I know it is from a fictional character, but I think many women must feel very similar feelings. I know I feel this way a lot about my own genetic gender.

"I thought, Here is how I feel about men: I am angry at them for the way they sling their advantage about - interrupting, taking over, forcing endings, pretending to not understand what equality between the sexes necessitates, thus ensuring that they are always and forever the ones who say when. But I feel sorry for them, too."

It would be nice if we didn't need to feel like we were at odds but until the ground truly is level the side in the ditch will always be trying to climb out. The best thing is for us GMs to lend a hand and help them stand beside us. That is when we will no longer need the 'isms.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I like that Kerrianne. And I'm not a male basher by a long shot but I don't put up with any guff either. Men with Sterotypical, backward, small minded views of women stick in my craw. It's disappointing to see it here. As I said, I've lost some respect for the CDing community. I guess I thought CD's were different overall but I'm learning the hard way that's not so.

On a positive note, I'm getting inspired by what I'm find on the net about women in the manual trades.

A cool website (yea, I know I've posted a ton):
http://www.sistersinthebuildingtrade...os/photos.html

Kew

[crusadergirl]

I don't really care who gets payed more men or women we should stand together and stop worrying about this stuff.
I fight for the ppl but if there is a good reason to fight againest them i will.
Nothing more to say.
I totally agree with Kew on this subject.

[Eugenie]

I like that Kerrianne. And I'm not a male basher by a long shot but I don't put up with any guff either. Men with Sterotypical, backward, small minded views of women stick in my craw. It's disappointing to see it here. As I said, I've lost some respect for the CDing community. I guess I thought CD's were different overall but I'm learning the hard way that's not so.

On a positive note, I'm getting inspired by what I'm find on the net about women in the manual trades.

A cool website (yea, I know I've posted a ton):
http://www.sistersinthebuildingtrade...os/photos.html

Kew

Hi Kew,

As a man, I'm very active in an anti discrimination network in Europe. This include advocacy for gender equality. I support your position completely. There is in fact more than just the salary gap in the discrimination women have to suffer.

I did feel that way since I was very young, in the university. My experience in a large company has just reinforced my support for women. I felt ashamed of being a male when some of my coleagues were making sexist comments on my female coleagues. I must say that it was worse when I came back to France where some of the male attitudes towards women would have lead these men to be fired for sexual harassment in the USA.

As a CD I feel even more in line with your thoughts. When I'm "en femme" in the streets I can feel the macho attitude in some of the men I come across.

There is one point where we, as CD, have to be quite cautious, it is not to overdo with the stereotyping of women in the way we dress and behave. I know we depend a lot upon using some of these stereotypes to impersonate women, but let's try to be somewhat modest about them...

Some of us can give a lot of gaz to fuel the rejection of X-dressers by some femininists as I have seen a few times...

to you Kew.

Eugénie