case study

[kittypw GG]

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.

Oh but Louise who is controlling who? There are two sides to every coin. If a partner is ok with the cd'ing but doesn't want a steady diet of it, and gives the ok for them to dress when they are home alone whenever they feel like it and if the CD still resents the SO for their lack of participation then, isn't the CD being unreasonable and somewhat controlling himself? I guess that if my hubby came up to me and explained that it would mean a lot for me to participate on any given night I would probably oblige him. But if he just quitely resents me for not participating then his anguish is of his own doing. I see this very thing happening a lot. Instead of really talking to their partners, the CD quietly resents his situation accuses their partner of being unaccepting and isolates himself. The SO feels resentful, about being shut out of her hubby's life and crossdressing easily gets blamed there by causing them to not want to participate. In my own head I guess I keep comming back to communication, and mutual respect for eachother.

Thanks for the appology by the way, I don't hold grudges and everyone is entitled to their own opinion it is hard to tell sometimes what people intend to convey when you don't have the benifit of body language and a real time conversation. Kitty

[NatalieBliss]

A little background before I answer questions. I have never had a girlfriend that knew about my crossdressing. Though I did some (at her request) with a girlfriend in high school. Excited then scared, asked to stop.
I love going shopping when asked, but always through a bit of "huff" as to cover my tracks. I was reluctant to do things with my last girlfriends family and some of her interest but I think that was mainly due to being a selfish jack-ass at the time, not related to CDing. Anyway thought that might help put my answers in perspective...

How do the CD and SO find common ground?
I don't know if common ground is any different to find than with a non-CD, and if I knew that I probably wouldn't be single right now.. :D

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?
This is a tricky one. All I got is "I love sharing CDing with you, and I would love it if we shared some of these other things too"

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?
I could see it being easy for a CDer who came out after the relationship got serious to feel that their CDing is only allowed at the whim of the SO.

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?
I don't think everything needs caring and enthusiasim from the other person. I also don't think that is what you where saying. If all that is in common is each other then there isn't much there in my opinion.

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

Well in the given senario the SO seems like she as becoming miserable so, no I don't thing that is or the makings of a successful partnership. The CD is kind of a jerk/bitch and the SO seems perfect. Though I don't doubt those relationships exist, I just wanted to point that out somewhere.

[Fab Karen]

The CD in this situation might possibly be helped by talking with a therapist to get a clear understanding of what the crossdressing means to them- not necessarily in this case, but some CD's wish to live 24/7, without going the route of hormones & surgery. Complete disinterest in anything not involved with CD'ing indicates something is going on that needs investigation.
Couples therapy would be helpful for both in the relationship, to work on communication & some kind of compromise if possible. The SO's passive-aggressive response indicates that some communication is lacking on both sides.

[rose382832]

i feel that the cd is acting like a spoiled child and either needs to be spanked or needs to seek therapy or counseling. if he cannot live with the the relationship where she helps him then he is not adult enough to be in a relationship and should go back to wearing diapers and having mom take care of him.life is for sharing, not just what you want but what also what your partner wants ( also your boss and your freinds.)

[Kerry Owens]

I realize now I'm not alone in saying wow! This is a great discussion, Lawren and I already are talking about some of the things I've wondered about, and thank you for bringing this up and the honesty I've read in here.

[Josephine 1941]

Hi

I agree with Stephiene too. The arangements that we CDs get our self into is tough enough. I THANK GOD I am in a different situation my SO thinks I don't dress enough. The CD in question is like a little kid, [ if I don't get to dress ,go shoping , clubing with my girl friends I will hold my breath until I turn blue]. If you are married an your SO will do all those types of things that you like, you better kiss her you know what. If you are willing to let her go, put her name an adress on here an start the bidding you have a CDers gold mine. I have one an I will tell you I go to concerts, plays her friends homes, we have a pact that if there is any one that she thinks should know we have a signal or I we will talk about it first in privite an then go with the flow. If this is a case study I feel sad for the SO an would like to hold her an tell her she is a great girl. I let my SO know all the time how much I appreatate all aspecks of her life.


Josephine

[SandyR]

Kitty,

If I miss more then a few days working out, well I get grumpy, miss meeting the boys for shooting, etc. But on the same hand I get grumpy when my wife and I don't get a chance to be with each other, going out to dinner, camping hanging out at the mall. Sometimes I get a bit carried away with CD'ing, or working out, or hanging with the boys, even my wife and I reach a point where we both need our space. To me, Family comes first, then work, keeping the house clean....................and on.

Just my thoughts.

Kisses.

SandyR

[Holly]

Well, I'll give this a shot. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I am married to a most wonderful lady. I self-impose some restrictions on my CDing, not because she asked me to but because I love her and I know some things would make her uncomfortable. But then again, that's true of many other non-CDing activities as well, so point number one would be that CDing is not the issue but a symptom of some other issue. Many have mentioned it... it's communication, or more specifically, the lack of it!

But I would suggest that there may be a deeper issue here that needs to be addressed. I have to question whether the relationship, as described, is based on love. Love is not about keeping scorecards, or bartering, or, positioning ourselves in the relationship, or seeing what is in it for ourselves. Love is not at all about self but is all about dying to self. It's about putting our partner's needs and well being ahead of our own. If both partners approach the relationship with that kind of attitude, I guarantee that that both partners will be fully satisfied emotionally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually.

Of course this is an ideal situation but then again, this is hypothetical situation... but it should give us all a goal to strive for. "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (I Corinthians 13:4-7, NIV)

[kittypw GG]

Holly you are so sweet. I love that Corinthians verse. I think that you are so right but don't you think that you have come to this conclusion because you have accepted and love yourself? When this is achieved then you don't sweat the small stuff so much. There is no need for sneeking, hiding or lying about your desires. Heck you may not even be lying but more unsure of who or what you are. Don't you think a lot of the struggles that some go through are directly related to self hatred or confusion about where on the CD spectrum you are?

For So's, and I have said this before, it is fear of the unknown that causes most all of the anguish. Yeah some are oposed to crossdressing due to religion or upbrining but most of it is fear. I have known about and started to get involved in the cd community about 8 years ago. Ever since the first day I had contact with other SO's I have heard complaint after complaint that their husbands shut them out. They isolate themselves, are moody and get caught at lies either directly or by words and actions not matching.

I understand the risk that some are taking by being honest about their inner feelings but isn't the imagined always the worse senerio? Why shut someone out of your life that you suposedly love? Even if you don't know where things are going wouldn't it be better to keep your SO in the loop?

So many questions and very few answers it seems. I do think that self acceptance and self forgiveness should be the goal of every individual.
Kitty

[TxKimberly]

So I return from a service call where I have admitted that I damaged a component of a customers instrument, and insist that we need to provide a replacement free of charge. My manager looks at me and says "You know what I really like about you most - your honesty and integrity". He pauses and says "You know what I really hate about you? Your honesty and integrity". We have a good laugh, I get and install the part I damaged and everyone is happy.
Well, as regards Kitty's post, I would have to admit that I am pretty guilty of just about everything she has written, although perhaps not to the degree implied. There's no way around it, I'm not going to get all excited and worked up about a visit to her relatives (mine all live thousands of miles from here).
My wife has accused me of exactly what Kitty has written, and I'm not fool enough to argue it is not based in truth. She gets angry that I don't come up with ideas for places to go - it bugs the hell outta her that she has to plan it all. For example, she loves to go camping, but after 12 years in the Army, I HATE camping. There is no happy medium there! :-)
Right, wrong, darned if I know, but there are some things that excite and thrill me, and there are somethings that don't. I don't fight and make her drag me kicking and screaming to visit her family, and I also don't give her a bad attitude and make her feel guilty for it while there. Am I excited and enthusiastic "come on babe, let's load up the rug rats and go!"- not really.
No answers here I guess, just ranting . . .
Kim (the bad husband)

[christina marie]

ok, problem#1, obviously this is not a purely hypothetical situation, by the way it is written there are some(at least) personal issues involved here. it is not possible to give a purely objective opinion when you know someone elses feelings are involved. by our nature we lean a bit on the sensitive side, and tend to be careful not to be offensive. if you want a truly objective opinion, ask a group of people who have no stake in the hypothetical situation. 90% of the people here are either CDers or SOs and will feel some empathy to one side or the other, eliminating the possibility for objectivity.
problem#2 honesty. neither side seems to be communicating their needs clearly. being honest about your desires and objectives for your relationship is the only way to build something that will stand the test of time. anything less is a self inflicted shot to the head.
IMHO this relationship, hypothetical or not, has much larger issues than CDing. honesty,understanding,maturity, and a sense of compassion on both parts, for all issues, seem to me to be the primary issues that need to be adressed before either person could be happy. above all else, a marriage,or any committed relationship, is a partnership. if both people are not on the same page in that aspect,then there is no chance of success. one last thought, for those of us that are married and finding these issues to be a stumbling block. how important are your vows to you? what value can you place on the words"for better or worse"? in my personal experience, my wife and i have put each other through hell and back several times in our 7 years of marriage, yet each time we have worked things out and come out stronger and more committed to each other every time. we are just beginning our journey into this aspect of our life,and i dont expect it to be any easier than any thing that has come before,but previous experience has taught me that if we try, we will find the strength to make it. my absolute best wish is the same strength and devotion for all of you!

[kittypw GG]

Christina Marie,
You are right the senerio is not totally hypothetical but a sort of combination of personal expirence and the expirences of other gg's that I have listened to over the years. You are also right about not being totally objective. If my hubby had come up with the senerio's there would have been a slightly different slant. I wanted to attempt to start a discussion on spousal acceptance and bring up the fact that many SO's feel shut out of their CD's life.

Most often when I read posts from CD's complaining about their wive's non acceptance I feel that it is really not related to crossdressing at all. The same can be said for the So's position. Her non accptance really has little to do with the crossdressing but more to do with fear. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemies.

For instance, CD tells So that he doesn't want to be a women just emulate one occasionally. So trys to accept that but catches hubby at a lie about chatting with others on the internet or catches him spending lots of time watching transexual porn. He also goes overboard with the dressing. So goes into fear mode because words and actions don't match and CD is shutting her
out. Since we can't read eachothers minds, it is human nature to make up possible reasons for the words and the actions not matching. He must be gay, he must want to be a women, I hate the crossdressing. Really she hates the lies and the lack of communication. He hates the reprocussions that her fears bring. Not really about crossdressing.

Again we come back to a lack of communication. The relationship errodes to the point of dissolution and crossdressing gets the blame from both the CD and the SO. So lets think beyond the crossdressing and get to the nitty gritty. The things that we can do to make our situations better.
What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?
Kitty

[Satrana]

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.

If you replaced crossdressing with a hobby and showed this to non-cd wives then many would recognize it and cry out "That's my husband!" These behaviors have got nothing to do with crossdressing itself and everything to do with a "hobby" which has become a dominating factor in a relationship and which the two partners cannot agree upon how it should be handled which causes resentment and hurt on both sides.

If the relationship is not working as it should but you still want to stay together then you need to agree to take stock of what has transpired and start again from scratch, this time building a new framework together from the ground up which actually works. This requires both parties to be honest about their needs and wants, likes and dislikes, forgetting whatever has been said or done in the past.

The couple may find that there is no possible framework that works in which case they would be happier apart. I would also suggest that in any new framework that crossdressing does not take central stage and is not made a BIG issue. I think the nature of the relationship has made crossdressing balloon into a major problem when it should really just be another tick in the checklist of relationship issues.

[kittypw GG]

Good suggestions Satrana, :D Kitty

[Satrana]

What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?

Fear is often irrational - fear of the dark, fear of spiders etc. In the case of SOs I guess fear of the unknown. No matter how many times a CD may say he does not want to transition, is not bisexual etc, does the fear not remain?

For me this is really just a mindset. Does the SO trust her husband implicitly, if so she must believe him and let go of the fear. Similarly a CD must trust his SO and not fear that she will one day turn around and call him a freak, pervert and walk out on him. If not he will continue to hide or downplay behavior which he thinks will make him an even bigger wierdo in the eyes of his SO.

[MsJanessa]

Hi Kitty----given the scenario you have drawn in your post (and what I know about your personal situation) your problem is one faced by many women and by some men. If you left out the cd part of it (which in moderation you are not only ok with but actually enjoy) it is the old familiar story of one spouse trying to do everything in a marraige to make it work and the other spouse totally insisting on having everything their way 100% of the time. Most successful marriages where both couples are reasonably happy (and nobody is happy 100% of the time) consist of a series of compromises to make both parties satisfied. For example, if the husband likes golf and the wife doesn't, the husband will still stay at home with his wife one day in a weekend on a regular basis, not because he wants to give up a golf day, but because he knows that doing so will make his spouse happy. Likewise the wife won't begrudge her husband playing golf once a week. The problem occurrs when one spouse wants their way all the time---playing golf two days a weekend and three nights a week, or never playing at all. It sounds like your husband needs a life outside of cding---from what I can tell, he sounds like an obsessive/compulsive type of person who has an all or nothing attitude. The fact of the matter is the picture you have drawn of him is that of a selfish overindulged child who is using crossdressing as a way of controlling you. I assume that you have talked to him about it on many occasions to no avail. Have you tried marriage counselling? If so and it hasn't worked, then you have a decision to make, and not a very easy one but one only you can make---nobody can do it for you. Good luck

[Carin]

"I am confused..." OK I don't really know if he did say that, but probably!

Albeit a pseudo-hypothetical situation, the original tone is clearly a one-sided expression, so I will NOT comment on the hypothecy. Objectivity is not possible without access to both perspectives.

Nonetheless, some of the questions have validity in the context of any relationship where there is a dominant concern riding on the relationship, in a generic sense but also in the specific of crossdressing/transgendered behaviors.

There are two questions in particular, pardon me of rearranging the order and editing out the qualifier:

Questions to ponder:

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership?

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

My answers to those questions are Yes, and, It requires hard work of a persoal nature.

IMHO, crucial to a relationship with dominant issues is the concept of ownership of those issues, and responsibility of the effects. By example, if both partners have a devout interest in cooking, then they take joint ownership in the pursuit of that activity. If one partner, but not the other has a strong interest in Buddism then that partner must take ownership of that interest and take responsibility for the effects or consequences (good or bad) of that on the relationship.

Ownership of the activity and responsibility for the outcomes go hand in hand. Consideration for the relationship plays an important part in the activity, but does not convey any rights of ownership or responsibility. I own what I do, I am responsible for what I do. This applies to both partners, and servers to seperate out practical or emotional control of each other from control of the activity.

In the context of crossdressing there is often a blindness factor on both sides. Who knows where this desire came from? Who knows what this is exactly? Who knows where it is going? Be prepared for a legitiimate "I don't know" answer from the crossdresser as well as from the SO. Even when I thought I knew the answers to those questions, I did not. Not because I was being deceptive to my SO or even to myself. I didn't know what I didn't know.

So how DO you find common ground. Start with ownership. The crossdresser owns the crossdressing. She takes responsibility for the crossdressing and its consequences - good or bad. Just as she would take ownership of primary hobby, a strong interest in a particular religion, participation in a volunteer orginazition. She owns responsibility for the activity and responsibility for the consequences of that activity. The spouse also takes ownership of her own activities, and their consequences. How do you equate or balance a Crossdresser's desire to dress with an SO's desire to visit family. You don't. They are seperate topics with sepearate ownership.

The crossdresser and the SO also own their own individual feelings and must also take responsibility of those feelings. By example, if the cd likes to wear a nite-dress to bed, she owns that decision and must take responsibility for the consequences - good or bad. The SO might get turned on by it and the fun begins, or the SO might reject the concept as unacceptable and they sleep seperated. Both partners must take responsibility for their own desires and feelings and for the impact and consequences on their partner. Each must convey (communications!! the perennial challenge) their feelings - good and bad - so that the other understands the consequences of their actions.

A Common Ground
The exploration of the workings of the human pshche can be most interesting. When the human is your partner, it can even get exciting. Few topics present a forum for exploration as well as the phenomenon of crossdressing /TG. In a relationship where the concept of TG is open, understanding your partners feelings through discussion and honest communication can be very enriching.

The Hard Work
Its not easy. Open and honest communication includes times of feeling rejected (both sides of the partnership). That is not easy. Taking responsibility for engaging in a particular activity that was received as hurtful by your partner is hard work. Being honest with yourself is hard work. This society does not condition us to to be honest with ourselves. We prefer to transfer culpability anywhere else. Getting what your partner was trying to say instead of reacting to what they actually said is hard work.

It doesnt work all the time. We don't know what to say. We are afraid to say. We say stupid things. We are human.

Relationships
My definition of 'Relationship' is "How we relate to each other". Human nature and survival of the species dictates that we start out in relationships at a more physical level. Evolution and time shifts that to a more emphatic, caring and nurturing level. When we get past what we do for each other we find what we feel for each other. When we get past what we feel for each other we find what the other is feeling.

Hmmm. That was a bit longwinded. But that is my :2c: worth.

[Di]

Kitty, This is an outstanding thread been reading with much interest .
On your questions to ponder....except for the last ( come to that in a min)
I just do not know how you convey to him how these things should be important to you both or finding a common ground......because the control issues..... and he trys to turn everything around on you by being moody, sulking ect and acting the way he does when in social situations......I feel he is being passive-aggressive and he gets trys to get his way by stalling and withdrawing, sulking.How someone deals with that...I just do not have an answer.For me I'd prob not deal with it and go off and do my own thing....a recipie for disaster....
Now the last question to ponder..Is it possible the CD/SO couple to have a successful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

I'd say not with the status quo ...................but I know that there's always hope that you can save your relationship, to be willing to somehow comes to a compromise you both can live with.

[battybattybats]

In my experience of the way men tend to behave, when a man withdraws it is almost always (generalisation but true in most of my experience) not to elicit a particular response or get their own way in a form of passive aggression but instead is because of their own incapacity to handle their personal emotional turmoil. I have known plenty of guys (including relatives) who react just like this. They might throw themselves into work or a hobby, they may take up a new pasttime almost at random and devote every waking hour to it, they may go with barely an hours sleep for days on end.

This isn't done out of selfishness nor as a way of getting their own way but instead because they don't know how to handle, deal with, control, contain or even live with profound emotional states so they will avoid thinking about the actual problem and instead try and fill their every moment with something else until the situation changes or their unconcious minds have processed their feelings for them.

Any emotion can cause this, as long as it is strong, unfamiliar or difficult for the man. I've seen it happen with Love where the person fairly fled the woman he was interested in and spent all his time on a hobby. I've seen it happen with Fear, of aging, of failure, of mortality. I've seen it happen with grief, profound or even seemingly insignificant.

This isn't childishness but a profound and ingrained reflex heavily conditioned into boys from an early age. This is exactly how many boys are taught to deal with emotions in life.

I think that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with current masculine culture, with societies expectations of men. Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw. They are taught not to cry, not to show fear, not to show emotion, not to show sympathy, not to show too much interest in women unless it is sexual. They are taught to be thoroughly emotionally disfunctional.

I have seen women as well as men take part in this conditioning, mothers teacthing these lessons to children as much as their fathers or peers. I think it comes from artificial false and/or edxaggerated ideas of what males should be like. I have also seen that this can lead to violence (and I am not excusing that violence in any way) as I have observed that many men when unable to handle their feelings if forced to face an issue that they are trying to avoid even if it is tangentially related to their emotion will react with intense anger. It can be easier for some men to lash out physically at people trying to help them than to face their feelings.

Thankfully I have seen some improvement with these things over my lifetime, with the broader victories of feminism and the breakdown of traditional male roles, with reductions in entrenched cultural homophobia that had many men acting as extreme parodies of supposed 'proper' male behaviour to avoid the stigma of seeming gay, with the rise of acceptance of small displays of emotions.

There is still a massive amount of work needed before we can finally destroy the repressive ideas of a limited acceptable masculinity that have chained, twisted and stunted men for generations fueling self-hatred, fear and hatred of the different and inspiring many forms of violence. How many women, gays, transgenders and others have been bullied, assaulted or murdered because of their transgressions of these rules of acceptable masculinity? Because their actions against these remind the repressed of their own trapped inner conflicts?

How much suffering exists in the world because men are not able/allowed/encouraged to come to terms with their own inner nature whether emotional, sexual or gender expression?

Now I'm not sure if that is what is happening in this case, but I have seen this kind of behaviour hundreds of times. Certainly I think the CD in this scenario needs to explore and come to terms with whatever emotions are seething beneath the surface, causing the withdrawel. Communication is key, but there must also be a non-judgemental acceptance/acknowledgement of feelings-even ones that are selfish. The cause of the feelings could be seemingly small, but unless it can be admitted and faced it can't be dealt with.

[sobe1ove GG]

Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.

[KrazyKat]

What an enlightening discussion, thank you Kittypw!!

I think so many things have been provoking good thought. But this just gave me an "AH-Ha!" moment!!
battybattybats wrote:
"Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw."
I was raised by 2 older brothers, just like this!! Ok, enlightenment.

And , WOW, People, do you understand this? No one wants to, IMHO>
What Carin said, about BEING RESPONSIBLE AND OWNING YOUR ACTIONS. You can't make someone do something, without threat of harm, can you? Or why would you want to be responsible for someone else, isn't itHARD WORK ENOUGHto be responsible for yourself?

Like Carin said:"IT'S HARD WORK!!" And many of us are taught by mentors, at very young ages had it BEAT into "us", that to work hard at making ourselves a better person can be sign of weakness!!
Isn't it a sign of your "Power" to make others take the blame for something you should "work hard" to do?
So, Kitty, this would take the question full circle? A CD fighting with ones self image is using the "male" ihherited right of "Power" to make someone else take the blame for not working hard/getting help/understanding how....for their "hobby"?

[Carin's Wife GG]

is in large part what has allowed Carin and I to get to where we are today. So thank you dear for pointing that out!



Louise.

Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.

before we realized that neither one could change the other. It goes two ways. Both you and Leah are going through such a rough time right now. Looking at it from a distance it is all so familiar (and painful).

(I did it again, posted two posts when I could have just done one, so sorry mods!)




Louise.

[kittypw GG]

First of all let me say that I am very impressed with the intelligent and thoughtful replys to this thread. I know that it will be helpful to more than just me.

Carin,
I think you are right, we all have to be responsible for and take ownership of our actions and our feelings. I think that when we place too much of the responsibility onto our spouses and they fail us in either not having the enthusiasim or the interest in whatever activity we want them to participate in we feel let down and many emotions can surface. I like what TxKimberly said about hating camping. Kim also said that he doesn't make it miserable or go kicking and screaming to activities that his wife really wants him to participate in when he is less than enthusiastic about participating. Sometimes you just have to buck up and put a smile on your face. I guess in a way you are responsible for wether or not you will have a good time. If you participate with a lousy attitude, lousy is what you will receive in return. If you participate with a good attitude, you might just have the time of your life. It is the law of attraction.

I want to thank you Battybattybats for your insight into the male expirence. You have brought up things I have not thought about. I do look at my hubby's withdrawal as passive aggression. I never really thought that he may not have the ability to handle or deal with the emotional turmoil that he might be going through. He was a career military man, tough as nails for 22 years. Now he wants to wear skirts???? I think that confusses him more than me. He also has it ingrained in him to dictate what we do and how often we do it in terms of the dressing. I think that is the master seargent in him. I guess that was his training. I am definately non military and get my neck hair up when the master seargent comes out.

I feel sad that we as a culture can't give our boys more of an emotional training. I feel that I have done so for my son. He hasn't always appreciated it though. He was brought up to be sensitive and thoughtful and has the abiltiy to talk about his feelings. These traits have gotten him some ridicule though because these traits in a boy are considered "GAY" and he is certainly not gay but had some confusion about himself because he did not fit the traditional male model. Now he is proud to consider himself a feminist
He has gotten past the trying to fit in stage and is trying to be true to himself.

Batty I have read and reread your words and will take them to heart. It has given me cause to think a little differently and will apply that slant to situations in my relationship to my hubby. I thank you for that.

Now here is a question in response to your comments. Do men want to change this pattern? Do men want to get in touch with their feelings and find a way to deal with their emotional turmoil? Or is it too late to change and establish some introspective emotional language?
Kitty

[Kate Simmons]

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.

[kittypw GG]

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.

Sal, you give me hope and inspiration Kitty