Like I said earlier, this thread has truely been a thought and fascinating thread, it's added a lot of discussion and knowledge! Thanks Kitty!
Like I said earlier, this thread has truely been a thought and fascinating thread, it's added a lot of discussion and knowledge! Thanks Kitty!
See, here's a problem with me and Leah B (I love how that rhymes.) Anyway, he can't be satisfied with what happens in regards to progressing his CDing. We get him a wig and a bunch of clothes, but it doesn't make him happy because he doesn't 'get to' to out dressed up yet. It's hard for me to willingly do this sometimes if my effort and supportiveness doesn't make him any more happy. If he's still sad, it chips away at my motivation.
I like what someone said about just grinning and bearing it and making yourself happy. Leah says that he knows he should be content but that he can't bring himself to do it. The way I see it, if you really want something for yourself, then you can do it. That leads me to beleive that he actually doesn't WANT to be content. If he really wanted to be, then he could do it. Then again, maybe I just read too many Anthony Robbins motivational books.
Sobe
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Well articulated BBB.
I hope that we can role-model more emotionally open behaviour for males in our culture. Especially those of us who carry on and are seen as male by society. Because you are right, this world would be a much better place if males weren't dulled and hardened emotionally by social standards.
"I dwell in possibility."
"Say what you want and be who you are, because those who matter don't mind, and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
I totally reject the 'if you really want it enough' notion. It goes right next to the 'if you really love someone enough' notion as a romantic fairytale that destroys people. No amount of love will give me the capacity to pluck the moon from the sky and offer it as a tiny necklace to my girlfriend. It is fundamentally impossible to do some things. If something can't be done it can't be done for a reason. I may not be able to pluck the moon from the sky because it weighs millions of tons and is locked in orbit around the earth. Knowing that, I could still fulfill that desire by getting a gemstone that resembles the moon and giving it as the gift but it would only be symbolically the same.
If Leah B isn't happy then it will be for a reason. That reason may be external as well as internal and will undoubtedly have an internal component. The important question isn't yet what would make Leah B happy but why is Leah B not happy. Not just on the surface but deep down. Finding out why she is unfulfilled could give you both tremendous power and understanding. Are you working on the right parts of her CD'ing? Is it the social aspect she needs more now? Is there anything that would be enough or is the craving for more now as a way to try and cope with conflicting internal feelings, maybe even only tangentialy related to dressing? Or.. Is she trying to immerse herself as a way to force herself to accept this part of her?
When I first started to realise this wasn't going away aand that It wasn't something to be ashamed of (though I still felt emotionally ashamed and embarrassed) I started having intense desires to out myself in a big public way. I realised this was because if the 'cat was out of the bag' (bat out of the belfry?) then I could no longer deny this part of myself and I would not be able to fear being found out. Well I restrained myself which, at the time, was a very good thing. I instead just came out to my mum. That went well and gave me enough of what I needed to keep going slowly.
Sounds to me like the therapist and group meetings are exactly what she needs. Not to fix problems but as a vehicle on her journey of self discovery that will enable her to come to terms with her needs and emotions. There may be value in you attending similar that may smooth your own journey with this and to help you both keep pace with one another.
To everyone else, I'm glad my insights into the male condition have been insightful and helpful to everyone.
Amusingly to me they were a bit of a hindrance in one way too.. I realised these things when trying to come to terms with the actions of others (and occassionally my own) and so became determined to be me irrespective of notions of how males 'should be' however in my desire to be a whole male rather than a narrow one which while I feel that was a very good thing, I ignored and denied aspects of wanting to be very very feminine because I was trying too much to integrate my femininity into my maleness. I still am very happy being feminine in my maleness and I think that that is very important but I have had to accept that sometimes I need more than that, to look and feel female. Of course my femaleness isn't an extreme stereotype of femininity either and that, to me, is also important.
I can't just make myself happy, and I DO appreciate what you've given me. But there's more going on here, and we can talk about that off the boards if you want to.
Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?
I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge.Kitty
[SIZE="3"]Interesting case study. I have waited to post because I felt it doesn't really apply to our (wife and I) situation. My wife dressed me up early in our relationship so it has never been a secret. We go through phases when it's at the forefront, and phases when it is not. We toned it way back to just some underdressing after our oldest was born, but have recently kicked into high gear again. For reference of time our oldest is 12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]"Tell me why I can't where a mini 'kilt' to work?"[/SIZE][SIZE="3"][/SIZE]
I've seen what you are discribing many times in many relationships. How does a relationship survive when one person has an all consuming passion. This could be almost anything, sports, golf, hunting, dogs, their job, religion, their passion consumes them. They are single minded in the way they live their lives to the exclusion of anything that does not include their passion, including their partner. Their is no easy answer to this. Here the problem is CDing but it could just as easily be a SO bemoaning a workaholic spouse that gives all to climbing the corprate ladder. How do you get some one to see beyond their passion. I don't know.
Paraphrased from the OP:
moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative, human interaction replaced with surfing the internet, finds solo activities, no interest in movies or shopping, only reluctantly participates with family, friends, weddings, anniversaries etc.
Does anyone else see this and think depression? It looks like a classic list of symptoms to me. Having some good friends dealing with depression I've learned that sometimes people can get cause and effect mixed up. Sometimes depression is just caused by chemical imbalances, but we assume something stressful in our lives (work, money, wife, kids, CD'ing) is the cause.
Adding to Batty's post about mens emotional dysfunction, I think men feel they must solve their own problems without ever asking for help. "If only I could work through problem xyz, I would be happy. Then I could tell my wife/family/friends about it afterward." Unfortunately, since problem xyz is not truly the cause of the unhappiness, working at the problem, no matter how hard, will not bring happiness. The depression then continues untreated.
I think that seeing a therapist is a good idea to find out if depression is a factor. If it is, and it gets treated, it might make working on any other issues a lot easier.
It's something to think about, anyway.
-Christine
P.S. Keep in mind, I got a C- in Psych 101
we have always strived to teach all of our children, both male and female to express their emotions and have I hope provided a safe enviornment to do that. That being said, our boys have assumed the general male characteristic of *holding it in*. I would assme this is social conditioning more than home influence. On the other hand, my twins played football and were team captains all four years of High School (one of them ranked 2nd in the State this year for receiving yards (brag over!))and still had the confidence to become cheerleaders and are considered two of the best in the entire State of California!Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?
I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge.
As mothers and fathers we have a lot to do with how our children, both female and male view themselves and others in the world. Providing a safe emotional enviornment in probably the first and most important thing we can do.
Louise.
Last edited by Carin's Wife GG; 05-17-2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: typos
Interesting point. I definatly think that might occur, but I think it would be more likely to come from one or more of:Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?
I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge.
a) the cd'er not wanting to be found out or in strong denial and so keeping up the macho male stereotype on the outside
b) the cd'er believing in the gender stereotypes and even polarising them further so their maleness is an extreme stereotype while their female side is equally extreme a stereotype so these both would be passed to children
c) fear that exposing children to crossdressing will cause some sort of harm to the children and so producing the same effect as (a) to 'protect' them
As to the latter, I haven't heard of any studies that suggest it causes harm. Has anyone any one way or the other? For many I suppose it could be fear of inflicting difference on the children which seems a strong fear for many. All the studies on children raised by gay parents that had any credibility that I've seen show no harm so I don't see how it would be harmful based on that but that view should defer to quality evidence.
It sounds like he wants a mother more than he wants a wife. Just saying. I find myself falling into the same patterns sometimes. Put this together with the forced feminization fantasy common to crossdressers, and you can see why it comes on especially strong. My advice would be to force him to ask for what he wants. Don't respond to passive aggressive behavior. That way, he will both have to admit to himself that he wants it (bringing him out of his own closet) and at the same time admit to himself that he is demanding it of you, and he will see what effort you are putting into it.
Also, my own relationship got a lot better when my long time gf started acting like she was into it. I know deep down she'd rather not be into it, because of homophobia more than anything I think, and she herself can't even stand dressing girly, preferring jeans and big t-shirts and little to no makeup. (She also dislikes lingerie, satin, lace, all the stuff I adore, and wears basic cotton panties.) But she pretends she likes to buy me stuff and do girly things with me, pointing out things in girly magazines, pointing to outfits, telling me fantasy stories, etc. She is a good actor, and my suspension of disbelief works well enough that I feel my needs are met. This works for both of us I think, at least for now. I think a big motivation for her may be that sex is a flop otherwise, and she knows it makes me feel really bad when she's horny and nothing is happening for me, so she does her best to help me perform, so I feel better about myself, and she is satisfied in the end.
*NODS* ~ Your comment puts it all into perspective. Both the CD'er and the SO need to do each of those things and sometimes one of those might be more necessary than others.
I am the life partner of Nicole Meadows who is sweet as an apple on Christmas day.
"There are only four questions of value in life. What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made of? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same. Only love."
~ Don Juan DeMarco
If we are talking about men in general then the answer is no, the emotional dysfunction, or as I like to call it the emotional lobotomy, of boys' upbringing is so deeply ingrained that it is extremly difficult to dislodge. Also men and women alike think the emotionally challenged male is the "natural" way men are so there is no reason to change the status quo. If you believe things are the way they are, then why fix something which is not broken. Men will not change this pattern because they do not recognize there is a problem.
Now here is a question in response to your comments. Do men want to change this pattern? Do men want to get in touch with their feelings and find a way to deal with their emotional turmoil? Or is it too late to change and establish some introspective emotional language?
Mothers and fathers usually want their boys to grow up into "real" men, natural leaders, confident, driven, successful, desirable by women. Raising boys to be emotionally sensitive is the exceptional to the rule and will often make the boy a social outcast. Similarly women, especially in their younger years, tend to seek masculine boyfriends, so young men learn the more they play into the masculine role, the more successful they will be with the opposite sex. Being emotional sensitive is usually a big handicap to a male in all parts of his life - he will typically have a low reputation, fewer friends, less successful career, less successful with the girls etc so the temptation to withhold his emotions and project a masculine personality to get ahead will be strong.
The only groups of men who recognize the problem and who may attempt to reverse this emotional lobotomy are gays and transgendered. But cds themselves are often focussed on the crossdressing as an activity, as a source of pleasure and relaxation so many miss the bigger picture.
Lets say you have an 18 year old son who wants to learn to drive. You give him the keys to a car but tell him that he can only drive it up and down the driveway. Naturally he wants to drive it around the streets, he wants to explore, he wants to make use of his new skills to do what everyone is allowed to do - the freedom to drive.
Do you think your son would be happy with this limitation? You may have what you consider justifiable reasons why you are not prepared to allow him to drive around the streets but holding back someone else's needs and desires is guaranteed to cause fustration and dissatisfaction.
Limiting someone else's freedom because of your own internal issues is not likely to earn you kudos points. Your fears and concerns are being used to hold back the flowering of Leah's feminine personality.
Leah is basically a female adolescent who wants to grow up into adulthood. And while there is good reason go progress step by step so that no rash behavioir is developed, how many adolescents do you know who are happy with limited freedoms? The problem of course is that Leah is also an adult male with adult responsibilities and adult freedoms.
I guess what I am saying is if Leah acknowledges your issues and concerns and is living by your rules then you should acknowledge that you are limiting her freedom and should not expect her to be happy until she gets total freedom and you trust her to be responsible in her actions and behavior and let go of your issues.
I agree that one should acknowledge that you are in a way limiting Leah's freedom but on the other hand Leah needs to acknowledge that this is his "thing" and that Sobe will naturally be less than enthusiastic about frequent participation. This is where Carin's comments will come in handy. Both parties need to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. Many times, in my own situation as well, the CD places a lot of responsibility on the spouses participation. When the spouse fails to live up to the CD's expectation then they accuse the spouse of being unaccepting when it is really a case of lack of interest.
It always amuses me when people, myself included, fail to see the similarities in our differences.
The Cd'er feels upset because the SO isn't participating enough or excited enough in crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.
The SO feels upset because the CD'er isn't participating enough or excited enough in non-crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.
Look how many words change in those sentances
The differences are minimal. The differences in the reactions are small, significant but still not all that important. The really important bit is that each is experiencing almost exactly the same thing on opposite sides of the fence and each seems to be mystified by the others reactions and in all probability ascribing all sorts of motivations and explanations from their own projected fears. Both are probably accusing the other of selfishness, a lack of understanding and think that the degree of participation that they are performing and acceptance that they are showing is more, or more important, than the others when actually they are each uniquely situated to understand the others feelings except that they are each unable to see past the issue in the middle.
Well, crossdressing is considered a special request by any GG who isn't into it. Above and beyond the call of duty. Like watching football or golf or Nascar. PRoblem is most guys aren't turned on by football or golf or Nascar but most CDs are turned on by crossdressing. So the spouse's involvement level then becomes related to the sexual health of the relationship. Don't know how many times I heard "Why can't you just be a MAN?" I am a man in case you didn't notice... doing all the manly things expected of me. And she did notice, eventually, that I wasn't planning to compete with her as a woman, that the manly duties would still be taken care of no matter how I looked or felt. Even if I am dressed in women's clothes and feeling bi and talking about piercings and cosmetic surgery and hair removal and T blockers, the manly duties are still taken care of. I think that is a huge security blanket to a GG when they realize that the male role and responsibilities in the relationship will always be taken care of even if their husband doesn't necessarily FEEL much like a man.
I also think the relationship improves when partners seek out ways in which they can indulge each other, instead of saying 'eww' and refusing to participate in things that they aren't interested in. Of course if one or the other does something that's absolutely disgusting to the SO, it's time to rethink the relationship.
Last edited by renee99; 05-18-2007 at 06:31 PM.
Yup, crossdressing is often tackled by couples by reverting to the standard man-woman trench warfare system, both sides lobbing grenades at each other from their fortified bunkers, both believing their issues are more important than their partners and being annoyed why the other does not acknowledge this fact and surrender.
The first thing which happens in a power struggle is that respect for each other disappears, empathy vanishes, fustration sets in and grand stories of ulterior motives are written. And once this has started it can be a deep rut to climb out of. What is needed is for both parties to set aside their combative stances and have a heart-to-heart and approach the topic with love, compassion and understanding. Hugs and reassurances are required not incriminations.
I agree Renee but also keep in mind that crossdressing is not as socially acceptable as nascar or football and the wife is void of the same sympathies when she tells people how isolated and lonly she feels because her hubby is so into crossdressing and doesn't make her feel loved anymore.
I also agree with the importance in a healty sexual life crossdressing plays for the CD'er. You mentioned the "feeling bi" part and my neck hair goes up a little. This is the number one thing that spouses are afraid of. That their man will want to find sexual gratification from other men or tg's. The CD needs to reassure the SO that that will not happen. I think this is the number one confusion for me personally. I know that my hubby is heterosexual but he has read stories about men forcing other men to dress and engage in sexual acts.
0n one level I understand that it is fantasy and a lack of sexual material involving hetero CD couples. But on the other hand I have no personal reference within myself to really understand why someone would want to do that.
I watched a talk show the other day that had on hetero couples where the roles were reversed. The husbands were more feminine in their likes and dislikes and the women did all of the dirty work. One hubby spends lots of time in front of the mirror and places great care with his male look. (side note he was an example of how much variety in mens clothes there is. lots of colors and materials but made for men) His wife's complaints could have come right out of a CD wifes mouth. They were one and the same. I think this pretty much proves your points Batty and Satrana.
We all need to think beyond the act of crossdressing and address the behavior that illicits the negative response. This should be true for both partners. Then we could get on about having the relationships we should be having. Ones with mutual respect and an abundance of love. Oh but how to get there............................................. ... ?
Great discussion everyone.
Bi feelings have more to do with desires of feeling penetrated or feeling submissive and desirable, as the sex object, than they do actually desiring a relationship with a man. A man is just the most convenient thing that can make a CD feel like a woman. (I think that the CD having feelings of wanting to be the sex object is what gives some SOs a feeling that they are being competed with. Sounds to me like an opportunity for some play if the SO could get over her insecurity.)
It is possible for a CD's bi feelings to be fulfilled within a hetero relationship if the partner is open minded about it and obviously if there's enough give and take in the relationship to warrant doing what a straight wife would consider oddball things in the bedroom, i.e. things lesbians would enjoy.
Of course there are CDs for whom it's just not enough that their wife is willing to take a dominant role in bed. If this is the case, they had better damn well decide what they really want and make sure their wife is in on the arrangement, like Richard (Alice) Novic did. Cheating, or even exploring the idea of cheating, is just another deceptive, evasive, passive aggressive behavior and I believe it should seriously call the relationship into question. If the CD feels he is left with no option but to cheat in order to get what he wants, he's in the wrong relationship.
I would also suggest that someone like your husband who displays compulsive and depressive behavior at the same thing seriously needs to talk to someone. First he needs to figure out if his CDing is just acting out on a personality disorder that he needs to address separately.
He also needs to figure out if he is a CD or a TG and you need to be in on the answer. The reason I think he might be unsure is because it is very tempting to sneak around and be evasive when a CD is trying to figure this out, for many reasons. It will benefit both of you if he can figure it out sooner rather than later, so you can get on with your lives and figure out if you are in each other's future.
Last edited by renee99; 05-19-2007 at 04:28 PM.
[SIZE="3"]My wife and I are on that same page and it's great!![/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]"Tell me why I can't where a mini 'kilt' to work?"[/SIZE][SIZE="3"][/SIZE]
The trouble with determining things quickly is that someone could still be in a state of self-denial without realising it and sometimes self exploration just takes time. Besides, a relationship needs to include room for change and growth. People aren't static things and while there might be added security if they were, trying to insist people don't change or grow over time just makes the relationship stiffling and suffocating. Of course the thought of change, especially change as drastic as someone who thought they were a CD and discovers they are TS can be very scary to some. There have also been at least a few CD's who think they are TS because of the 'must be one or the other' view of gender, some have even gone as far as surgery before discovering there mistake.
Still, many (most?) TS know they are from a very early age. Talking to a proffessional psychologist especially with some experience in the field could help him discover for sure.
I agree and most wives would be willing to explore being "dominant" in the bedroom. The only thing is that a lot of women have seen what their acceptance causes in the CD, the dreaded "pink fog". Then this fear is applied to trying things in the bedroom. I certainly don't want to be dominant in the bedroom all of the time, so one fears that will be the case if satifying the "bi" fantasies are intertained. Most people don't want a steady diet of one thing. I love variety but the "pink fog" limits variety in the relationship.
Not letting your spouse in on your true self and secretly acting it out can have devistating consequences for the unsuspecting spouse. I have seen it happen. Wife goes to the doctor cause she can't shake the "flu" and finds out she is not only HIV pos but she has such a low T-cell count that the "flu" that she has is a life threatening rare or terminal illness that medication will not take care of. Putting someone in this kind of harm is illegal and could and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. IMHO.
Depression and personality disorders are separate issues. Gender identity can be a part of those disorders. for example borderline personality disorder can have a gender confusion component because of a lack of core personality. One does need to address these issues. The sad part is that sometimes other people can see the problem but the one afflicted. Getting someone to address their issues is almost impossible if they don't think they have any. If that person refuses to see the problem (like batty said, you can't fix something without acknowledging what is broken) then one has to make some tuff personal decisions on wether or not to stay and work it out. This is very a very tough decision to make because every relationship has an up side and we tend to cling to that up side as proof that things could work out.
Hi Kittypw GG,
I guess i am in the minorty, I have had sex with a couple of men an found that I don't like it better, I like being with women. Sex is an animal instink we all have the same drive. I have found that the drive is the same for me anyway. My girl friend an I reverse role at times durning the love makeing. For us we love one another an the act gives you the same felling wether male or female. Is a soul male or female , unlike the body that we can't control. To find a mate that accepts you no matter how you appear is what I think all of us are looking for. I am very much at ease when I dress in MY female cloths an my girl friend knows it an accepts it. She at times perfers me as her girl friend an I think that is a key that a lot of CDs miss. When in my female mode I am her best girl friend, an as you all know a girl friend you can tell all too. What better than a Cd,she/male or what ever role we want to be know as it can only make the relationship better. For me I have what I hope will be a long an great relationship with a very great women that I have learned to love all ways .
Josephine
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