Crossdressing is a transgender activity

[Michelia]

A thread started by someone I admire much on this site about another issue spurned me to start this one.

Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before. But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

Sure there are exceptions to the rule as in someone liking to use panties because they are more comfortable and it has no "feminine" connotations for them.

But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego? Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are? Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means? Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is. It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

Michelia

[Kieron Andrew]

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

no educating needed i totally agree with you

[Karren H]

I thought that de nile was a river in Egypt.... We are who we are no matter what the catagory..... I don't know what I am....... just extremely happy.....

Love Karren

[battybattybats]

Hmm... yes I think that many are still wrestling with a perceived stigma or just want to show that they are closer to one end or another of the spectrum, or that they are only a little away from 'normal'. It works on the other direction too, I've read remarks by TS's elsewhere that were disparaging of CD'ers for being in between.

I wonder though, where one must be on the scale to be no longer transgendered? Most of the women I know have some 'male' traits, same with the men being at least a little 'female'. I think that less than 1% of either gender that I've met could be considered 100% one or the other, depending on what traits you ascribe to what genders.

Could it be that we are all transgender? Every human being?

[Ellie C]

i expresss my fem side as i want to , im well happy with it , some may not be but its my life i live it :D xxxx

[ToyGirl]

There are some fundemental differences between cd's and ts , ive seen animosity from ts communitys towards cd/tv. I agree with what your saying though , but it'd be alot more interesting if I didn't. Guess i'll have to wait for someone to disagree with you.

[Teresa Amina]

The trouble some people have with identifying as Transgender is the never ending and rapid change of use for the word. On the Tyra Banks show there was an episode about Transexual dating, but apparently it's no longer PC to say anything but Transgender so that was the word used. No wonder some people get defensive since one often sees the word used as a catchall for everything from a simple fetish to Post-Op. Gets annoying!
I have no problem with the word, but then I'm very definitely Trans-Something :D

[Kate Simmons]

As Popeye always said: "I am what I am." Hopefully, that doesn't make me a bad person (even though I like skinny gals who look like "beanpoles").

[cd_lisaplaything]

I hate Political Correctness. All these bloody labels and people getting offended by being referred to as what they are. Yeah, I'm in the closet with my crossdressing, and my bisexuality, but I kknow within myself who I truly am, regardless of who I present as to my family and friends. I'm sure there's a lot of us in similar situations. Sometimes I just wish that some folks would look up the dictionary definition of a word before being offended by it. I mean we are who we are, and on boards such as this at least, can freely and openly admit to that.

I can't for the life of me work out why some transgender folk get so uptight about the rest of us who choose to call ourselves crossdressers or transvestites or transexuals. I refer to myself as a crossdresser for a couple of simple reasons:
1. Being in the closet, all my stuff is stashed away and very rarely comes out these days coz I'm in a straight relationship
2. Even if I was single again, and dressing almost every night like I once did, I still have all my body hair and I'm of solid build so I don't LOOK feminine at all, regardless of how much effort I go to. [just a man in a frock!]
But to me, I dress because it makes me FEEL feminine, regardless of my outward appearance. When I'm dressed up [or down, hehe] I FEEL like a girl, deep within my soul. I'm me, whether I'm in work shorts & steel-capped boots, or a skirt & heels; who cares about labels?

[MJ]

i like to keep things simple *not because of my hair color* i was born a male i dress as female and to look Evan better i take hormones through my good doctor ... and there are many here who do not .. but we all do the same thing cross dress .. and i get to learn from everybody else .. and make new friends

[Jenny Beth]

To me there's no point trying to label myself one way or another, I'm happy with who I am and the way things are. The one thing I do know is that transitioning isn't for me. Oh sure the thought is nice but it would be financial suicide not to mention what it would cost in terms of family.

[O2B Barbara]

I have to wonder how many straight Genetic Males first started by wearing a Signifigant Other's panties. Then progressed to mild CD to all out Tg and then to TS?

Where are any of us on the Spectrum today and where will we be tomorrow?

Barbara

[MoonBaby GG]

I wonder though, where one must be on the scale to be no longer transgendered? Most of the women I know have some 'male' traits, same with the men being at least a little 'female'. I think that less than 1% of either gender that I've met could be considered 100% one or the other, depending on what traits you ascribe to what genders. Could it be that we are all transgender? Every human being?

I'm starting to think so...it's all a matter of degrees and what that person chooses and feels comfortable with expressing.

[Eva Diva]

A thread started by someone I admire much on this site about another issue spurned me to start this one.

I hope you weren't actually spurned. :D

Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before.

Yep! :D

But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

The reason that you started this thread is that youknow that some CDers on this site do. Let me rephrase that sentence for you.

I find it hard to believe that there is any legitimate justification for any CDers on this site to object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum


Now I can discuss your proposition. Trans, from Latin, means "on the opposite side". So, assuming there is a gender "spectrum", transgender means "of the opposite gender", or "being the opposite gender". If I say that you are on the opposite side of the river, I don't mean that you are in the middle of the river, on your way across. In current usage, a transgendered person is either a person who has undergone medical treatment and/or surgery to change the appearance of their body to the opposite of their anatomical gender, or a person who seeks to do the same and/or feels/identifies themselves as having the consciousness of gender identity of the opposite anatomical gender - that is, "woman trapped in a man's body" syndrome.
So accepting your metaphor of a gender "spectrum", a transgender person would be at the far end of their anatomical gender. That person would have the anatomical gender of a woman, but would "know" deep in their psyche that they "are" a man. Not feel like a man, or take pleasure from dressing as a man, but "be" a man. The transgender ideology takes it as a given that self-identification trumps anatomy - which is exactly where it crashes into the commonsense gender definition of society, where anatomy is destiny. When a man says "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body", straight society says, "No, you're a man with a nutty brain trapped inside it".
Going back to your statement - rephrased by your's truly :D - you are actually asking why all crossdressers don't identify themselves at the far end of the gender spectrum. Your obvious mistake is that you allow no middle ground along your own spectrum. A rainbow has many colors, no? :D

Sure there are exceptions to the rule as in someone liking to use panties because they are more comfortable and it has no "feminine" connotations for them.

Obviously, your exception doesn't count around here.

But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego?

What was "object/deny/ argue" above has become "denial" now. No more disagreement, just denial. And what is denied but the truth? As in the rhetorical device "You're in denial!" Sorry, the truth has not been established yet - you are stating a position, and you haven't even heard the response yet. Assuming your own assertion doesn't get you anywhere in debate. We know that you think that you are right; now it's our turn.

Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are?

Now I think we're getting somewhere! What you've done here is to admit that, in your own mind the people you are talking about are not transgendered. You are allowing for that "spectrum" now and talking about associations among people along said spectrum. What began as "Why won't you admit that you are transgendered" has become "Why won't you identify in the "same broad category" as transgendered people. Rather a different question, isn't it?

Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means?

Putting aside the typo, I stand on what I said above. You are the one who has scrambled terminology, ignoring the spectrum of gender dysphoria, and lumping all degrees of gender mixing with the single term transgender. If you don't keep the difference between a graduated scale and a single point on the scale, then you're bound to get into trouble.

Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is.

I couldn't agree more! :D Dismissing labels is just avoiding the effort of thinking about our nature. Not a crime, but no virtue either.

It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.

That's a mouthful! First half first: Why is it important to stick together? I think that it's reasonable to say that this is the "take-home message" of this post. In fact, I read it as the motivation for the assertions seen above. And it is also the problem. Let me rephrase and abbreviate the entire post:

1. It is important that "people like us" - people affecting cross-gender associations - stick together against the disapproval of society.

2. In order to encourage unity among ouselves , and support those of us at the extreme of gender dysphoria, we should all identify with the extreme and stand with them. In that way, we support ourselves by association.

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

Ask and ye shall receive - considered yourself educated. You now have a new account. But then I think it's not really new to you.


All of which leaves open the question of whether crossdressers should consider themselves transgendered. Can you be a little bit transgendered, or is it like being pregnant? And in any case, how much does a straight weekend crossdresser share with a gay 24/7 crossdresser? And how much does a fetish pantyboy share with a post-op transgendered person? Does a happily married crossdresser share more with a transgendered person, a gay crossdresser, or a straight guy? Nothing I said above begins to answer any of these questions, so don't assume. You know what they say about assuming....:D

[Toyah]

Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before. But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego? Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are? Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means? Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is. It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

Michelia

I am quite happy to be called a CD or a Tranny huh tough if that offends you I know it does some
But to be lumped into some Transgender quite honestly offends me

I am not nor desire to be female
I do not want to be with a guy
I like wearing female clothes but that does not make me effeminate
99% of the time I dress and present wholly as a guy I do not wear women's clothes under my male clothes and never will
I am sick of self analyzing me me mees trying to define who I am. I am me. I like the people here but am tired of those who think they can impose their narrow minded view of the world on everyone else.
Dont endlessly try to line the shrinks pockets boy do they see you coming, just do what you want to do but dont tell others what they should do.

[Dasein9]

Transeo in Latin, which is where we get the prefix "trans" from means a bunch of things. To cross, to pass over, to desert, to treat cursorily, to overstep, to surpass, to go over, to go across, to pass by, to go by, to shift, to pass by, to pass away, to cross over to, to desert to, to change into, to penetrate, and to permeate.

Now, one thing none of us do, I think, is treat gender cursorily. Otherwise, any and all of these may apply to CD's, TV's, and TS's. (Did I leave anyone out?)

This is why I think of transgender as a blanket term that includes cross-dressing, transvestism, and transsexuality. We certainly do shift, change, penetrate, and permeate the very flexible borders that exist between the genders, as they are understood in Western society. That's what we have in common. Of course, the degree to which we do this is why we have the terms that fall under the umbrella of transgender.

I'm grateful for labels, even if they do get confusing and carry the danger of being confining. Without labels, we don't know who we are, or whether there are others like us in the world. The sense of enormous relief I felt upon learning that there are words for the kind of person I am is something I'd find it difficult to put into words.

[aka.laura]

Being a healthcare pro I know how important diagnoses are to patients. No matter how bizare the label one puts on a problem, as long as the patient can walk out of the office with a name for his/her problem, the customer 's happy. I feel the same thing applies to a lot of "us". But girls: who cares !? To my wife I'm a guy with a very feminine side and she couldn't care less about how I would call myself. Why bother? Love you!

[Dixie]

[SIZE="3"]It's not that I am disagreeing with what you are saying, it's just that labels just simply don't fully encompass who each individual within the "label" is and tend to be a little confining. "I thought you were only a crossdresser....I thought you said you were transgendered...." No matter what label is attached to you, there are bound to be extensions or exclusions of your personality that do not fit into the nice neat little box that someone insists on assigning to you.[/SIZE]

[Dasein9]

That's true. It's always a danger of labeling.
On the other hand, though, if we don't have words for certain human experiences, then we don't have any way to talk about them or recognise those who share our experience, or at least some aspect of it. At least with the labels, we have something to start with in figuring out where the label does and does not accurately describe us.

[AmberTG]

I think we just need better labels to describe the people who are somewhere inbetween. Cross-dresser works fine for those who don't identify as female in some way, who feel that they are "a man with a femme side". Nothing wrong with that label as a way to describe that person. Transsexual, transgender are good ways to describe a person of one physical sex who identifies as primarily the other gender. Nothing wrong with that label either, except what the "Jerry Springer" type shows have done to it. It's the ones who are floating somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum, like me, that don't have an acceptable "label" to describe us, a one word term that fits. "trans" goes too far, "CD" doesn't go far enough.
For me, it's a dilemma, I don't identify as a man, but I don't identify as a woman either, so I have no convenient label to describe myself. I'm closer to trans then CD but neither really fits me.

[Dixie]

[SIZE="3"]Dixie that's my "label" or "me".[/SIZE]

[Dasein9]

It's the ones who are floating somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum, like me, that don't have an acceptable "label" to describe us, a one word term that fits. "trans" goes too far, "CD" doesn't go far enough.
For me, it's a dilemma, I don't identify as a man, but I don't identify as a woman either, so I have no convenient label to describe myself. I'm closer to trans then CD but neither really fits me.

Like "genderqueer?"

I tend to put this one under the transgender umbrella, myself, because genderqueer persons also tend to permeate the boundaries of gender.

[Dasein9]

[SIZE="3"]Dixie that's my "label" or "me".[/SIZE]

Well, sure. And "Das" is my specific label. But if we're conversing, it might help you to know that I'm also trans, ftm, a grad student, a bibliophile, and a host of other labels too.

I'm not trying to undermine what you're saying -- you've brought up some good points about the danger of labeling. But I also think that the danger doesn't obviate the need for labels, just for their mis-use.

[kerrianna]

I agree with you Michelia.

I think sometimes people confuse TG with TS. To me transgender does refer to anyone who crosses typical gender boundaries - and all of those are illusionary anyway, like labels. But like Das said, we use these terms to be able to communicate this stuff with each other. We're all unique beings and exist beyond all the boxes, but for discussion purposes I think TG is useful for describing anyone challenging social conventions of gender.

Anyone dressing or adopting the flavour of the opposite sex is TG in my opinion.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Not ALL CD is TG by a long shot. Dressing as a member of the opposite sex is not an activity in itself, but rather something we do to express an internal urge or desire or to evoke a personal psycological or sexual response.

A male with a need to express one's fem side, will CD, A Transsexual will CD, a man with a fetish for women's clothing will CD, CDing can be used to psychologically escape ones "self" or "maleness" or both, CDing can be used produce a "high" or "thrill"---either sexual or of the "taboo tripping" variety.

CDing is only TG if the reason behind one's CDing is TG based. CDing is only a common "symptom" or "response" to various peoples various urges or conditions. CD in itself cannot be related to any one specific condition any more than a cough is a unique symptom to only one disease.



At least 3 different "families" of conditions induce people to cross dress.

DIRECT SEXUAL, ---Its a turn on. A fetish or ultimate penitration fantasy for example. or as masochistic humiliation technique

IDENTITY ---Several sub sets here. CD as a tool to escape personal identity (as in becomming another person) CD as a tool to excape "Maleness". VS. CD as a tool to achieve a degree desired feminity---to express a "fem side" or a "true fem nature"--as in TS.

BRAIN REACTION BASED--- Thrill seeking ,for example.--- Violating certian "taboos" or "barriers" in the brain---such as self preservation---and even social status defense or other "forbidden" acts, and getting away with it, produces an extreme natural "thrill" or "High" in a person. It can be addictive. Some people can get this by violating the "dress taboo"---and CD to achieve it. It certianly is safer than skydiving or motorcycle jumping.