I am certainly no expert, but my opinion is that unless you are planning to transition to full-time presenting as female, it would be wise not to mix your dressing with work.
I am certainly no expert, but my opinion is that unless you are planning to transition to full-time presenting as female, it would be wise not to mix your dressing with work.
Well, extremely polarized bunch of responses.
As a guy who does wear skirts at work, while remaining very clearly male, here are some of my thoughts and responses.
1. As many have said, you can't un-ring a bell. At best, you can wait for the reverberations to die down, or move far enough away they can't be heard. ( Pretty good allegory eh? I'm proud of that one )
2. I do not, in myself, identify as transgender. By most definitions I am though. I am not above claiming the protection this affords me if necessary.
3. Even though I asked first, and know that our company has serious rules about discrimination, I was nervous. Partly that was what sort of reaction I would get from co-workers and customers, partly I wasn't somehow comfortable with exposing this side of me. As it turned out, the responses have overwhelmingly positive. I have had precisely one negative reaction from a customer, and I wasn't certain of that as no words were said, and one negative attitude from a co-worker. Strangely enough the Scot, who has come to functions in a Kilt!
4. have been doing this for about 2 months. I had my annual review about a month ago, the subject was not raised, overall a pretty good review and it was stated that they find me a valuable employee.
5. I am in Canada. Those of you following Isha may have realised that there are some actual functional non-discrimination rules in Canada. The OP is in the UK, where I think the laws are similar. No that doesn't mean that a company can't find some way round the rules, it does mean that most won't try it if you're smart about it, and are known to keep good documentation. The US, California apparently being an exception, is functionally insane in most of it's ( nearly non-existent ) labour laws. You have other issues with your laws which mean I will not cross the border again, probably ever. Pity, I like most Americans and you have a beautiful country.
6. Why did I do it? Because I like skirts and wanted to feel comfortable and true to myself? Couldn't be as simple as that? Nah....of course not /S
7. To the OP, Gale, ( just read your handle and fell about laughing! ) It's your choice. I don't know if your particular situation gives you more freedom of action or not. If you do it, how to do it? I think talking to HR first is probably best, unless you have very good rapport with a member of the upper management who may have good input. Depending on what they say, then HR. Good Luck and report back please!
"Normal is what you get when you average out the weirdness that everybody has." Quote from my SO
Normal is a setting on a washing machine, or another word for average.
The fact that I wear a skirt as a male should not be taken as a comment on what you do, or do not wear, or how you wear it.
This is just naive! Employers are not stupid, and they keep abreast of all the latest laws and rules. Simply put, if they want to get rid of you, they will find a way to do it. They have lawyers to advise them on various issues and ways to terminate employees. Your employer may not care what you wear. Or to your dismay, other employees may complain that you are a distraction, or customers may complain. They may not fire you immediately. Sometimes they take many months, carefully laying the groundwork, filing several poor performance reports in your personnel file. Or citing customer complaints. Rest assured, they will not fire you over gender issues or other issues for which you could sue them. But if they want to get rid of you, they will do it. It's your job, and your decision to make.As for putting jobs at risk, I don't see how. Employers are not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender identity and as long as acceptable dress codes are adhered to there is no significant risk beyond the normal hazards of coming out in any other environment.
I have heard of many cases, In the UK and Canada, where they have tried this and got their fingers burnt. Co-workers who complain about having issues with Transgender individuals, may in fact find themselves in counselling.Originally Posted by MelanieAnne
"Normal is what you get when you average out the weirdness that everybody has." Quote from my SO
Normal is a setting on a washing machine, or another word for average.
The fact that I wear a skirt as a male should not be taken as a comment on what you do, or do not wear, or how you wear it.
Hi Gale,
I take from your post, you wish to be able to express this side of you by how you dress (e.g., women's or men's or a mix of clothing) and not so much the full expression (make-up, wig, etc.). While I have challenged how the Canadian military views what it means to be TG by presenting male or female depending on how I feel, it was done through education and consultation. If you want to alter your dress and do so under the protection of your company's Equality and Diversity policy, you are going to have to go to your HR department and identify as such and explain to them what that means to you. For them, they might see being TG as meaning you are going to transition at some point (the Canadian Military thought the same thing when I came forward). You are going to have to educate them that being TG means different things to different folks and this is what it means to you. This will most likely need to be followed up with dialogue between you, HR and your supervisors and eventually public education. It is a process if you are expecting to be covered under existing TG policy.
However the most salient point is "What do you want and need to do". If this is something deep in your core that you need to do (dress as you please) then go forth. However what are you going to do if they say "No, we don't agree that you are TG because you like to wear male and female or a mix of clothing?". The information is now out there for all to know. You need a contingency plan. I am not saying this is going to happen, but it is what I had in mind when I came out to my chain of command. I had done a lot of research on what TG means and had answers and arguments to sway the "NO" camp . . . fortunately I did not have to.
Krisi,
While this can certainly be the case it is not as simple as "do it and it will go bad". I agree that if you are just flirting with the idea because of reading a few "feel good" stories then step lightly. However, if your CDing is predicated on some form of dysphoria and it is something you need to do and will never transition then you may need to do it. Naturally this would not just be showing up in a sundress and a sandals one day but through dialogue and research. If you find the company cannot abide by that then you will need to decide what is more important . . . your emotional well being or your job. For me I was fully prepared to leave military service if they said no as I could no longer function in just one gender.
Cheers
Isha
I may wear a tie-dye T-shirt tomorrow.
Why? Because it is hot and the shirt is the coolest I own.
It's not overtly feminine, although the colours are bright!
Thanks for the comments, I'll think them through carefully.
It really depends where you live. Where I live, our Human Rights Code forbids discrimination on the basis of gender identity and gender expression, and the latter includes crossdressing.
To the OP: Examine the laws where you live. Examine your employer's policies. And then decide for yourself whether or not your employer is likely to try underhanded tricks to skirt the laws, so to speak.
If after all of that, you're confident that your position is safe, then I wish you good luck.
Go to HR and be as masculine as you can and say 'Dude, I'm a chic!', pounding fist on the desk 😠 Seriously though, I've thought about this myself...how about leveraging Halloween. ..dress up as a woman but do it so well that people actually think you look good and work it from there??
This is not a TG issue. Go back and read the original post!
I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
As a piece of information and considering some of the material here, in the US, GENDA (Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act) is NOT the law of the land. Some places have protections, but most do not.
DeeAnn
There is very little good to be gained from disclosure that you crossdress at work. You may not be fired for disclosing that you are a crossdresser, but you may not see promotions, positive performance ratings, raises or good assignments. You might be the subject of complaints from co-workers. You might find yourself with fewer friends. Why risk it? If you are a closeted crossdresser, work is the last place you should consider demonstrating that you crossdress.
Who are you replying to?
"Normal is what you get when you average out the weirdness that everybody has." Quote from my SO
Normal is a setting on a washing machine, or another word for average.
The fact that I wear a skirt as a male should not be taken as a comment on what you do, or do not wear, or how you wear it.
I was replying to Isha.
Hi Gale,
I take from your post, you wish to be able to express this side of you by how you dress (e.g., women's or men's or a mix of clothing) and not so much the full expression (make-up, wig, etc.). While I have challenged how the Canadian military views what it means to be TG by presenting male or female depending on how I feel, it was done through education and consultation. If you want to alter your dress and do so under the protection of your company's Equality and Diversity policy, you are going to have to go to your HR department and identify as such and explain to them what that means to you. For them, they might see being TG as meaning you are going to transition at some point (the Canadian Military thought the same thing when I came forward). You are going to have to educate them that being TG means different things to different folks and this is what it means to you. This will most likely need to be followed up with dialogue between you, HR and your supervisors and eventually public education. It is a process if you are expecting to be covered under existing TG policy.
However the most salient point is "What do you want and need to do". If this is something deep in your core that you need to do (dress as you please) then go forth. However what are you going to do if they say "No, we don't agree that you are TG because you like to wear male and female or a mix of clothing?". The information is now out there for all to know. You need a contingency plan. I am not saying this is going to happen, but it is what I had in mind when I came out to my chain of command. I had done a lot of research on what TG means and had answers and arguments to sway the "NO" camp . . . fortunately I did not have to.
You mean he might end up having to face all the same issues that women in the workplace currently face?
And maybe.. it's possible that work is actually the place he feels safest.. maybe his co-workers are prominent people in his life and maybe he's considering this move because he wants to come out in that way. There is no right and wrong way to come out.
And the OP has stated they wish to do this, and asked for advice on how to go about it but the majority of responses on here have nothing to do with advising him on what he wants, but telling/advising/strongly suggesting he doesn't do what he's already stated he wants to do. Opinions are fine people, but they are much better received when asked for.. on this occasion advice is more appropriate than opinions.
MelanieAnne,
Since you decided to openly chide me in your response that I somehow misread the OP, why don't you go back and read my full post before launching with your own comments. I even stated that I know the OP was not planning to present as a female. I was providing her with advice on how to approach her HR folks based on my own experience.
As far as not being a TG issue I guess it depends on how you define TG. The common acceptance is an umbrella term which includes CDers of all walks and I believe the OP falls under this category.
Isha
"A person is <intelligent>. People are <stupid>" --paraphrase of Men In Black... if you speak to an HR rep you will probably get a positive reaction. But the group reaction of your co-workers may be the other direction. perhaps prime a few trusted persons first. TG is still pretty new to most people. Sure they knew about it, but only recently is it really coming to a head.
with contract terms and permanent residence in question- my strong advice is to consider worst case scenarios, and decide if you can live with that. Simply put- plan for people being at their worst, even if you are great at pushing them to be their best.
i teach college- a rather male dominated subject- electronics. i work with profs who are hard asses and ones who could probably be therapists... and the students like and respect me because of my approach.
I have considered coming out, but despite the fact that i think most students would be okay with it (i'm sure a few even suspect it), i don't CD at school because it would not add anything to the classes or my ability to teach or work with the students. At this point in time, i think it would be in general- slightly negative in overall effect. I won't risk that for something that would have only a minor effect for me at work:
I am physical when i teach- active and i use a lot of tools. I get dirty sometimes. i need to work closely with students sometimes- i don't want them freaking out because a guy in a pantsuit or skirtsuit is next to them. The prime focus is on the teaching.
Until CD/TG is more common, i'm not going to distract the learning process.
That's how i see it, for my own situation. But yeah, i'd like it if i could come out and teach full time as a female. I'd be kind of a tom-boy-ish female, I think that has more sexual overtone than simple crossdressing- it's more like a gender-$#$%- but that is what I am. I CD, but i am still avid about whatever it is i am doing.
Hope this helps.
k
Umm. I think I offered advice on how to proceed.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
To go back to the original post:
the burning question here is simply why would a strongly heterosexual male want to wear womens clothes to work? But after all is said and done, it is his decision to make, and he will be the one to live with the consequences, good or bad.I am a strongly heterosexual MtF crossdresser, who is still in the closet. I have no desire to transition, or even present as a female.
Because he likes them?
To me, the burning question is this: Why can't everyone express themselves as they choose, without being judged?
Because we don't live in a perfect world!To me, the burning question is this: Why can't everyone express themselves as they choose, without being judged?
I second that notion.
Policies are in place ( as you said; "on paper" ) in order to protect THEM from law suits when they fire someone "without cause" so that they can "prove" that the dismissal was not due to the issues mentioned...since they have "policy" to handle "those" issues.
That does not mean you won't be
- shunned
- fired without cause
- shafted ( blamed for something you didn't do )
If you guys have Halloween where you are - START NOW by arranging a For Charity Costume Day - where people donate $5 each to some local charity ( TIP: pick a children's charity ) and show up in a dress. See how that goes.
Last edited by MonctonGirl; 07-18-2015 at 12:13 AM.
Hi MelanieAnne,
Umm WRT to the OP that was not the burning question asked by Gale but your interpretation . . . her question was about "how would we advise about outing herself at work (see below). That is what people (myself included) responded to.
Just remember, people who give out advice on the Internet don't have to live with the results of that advice. These people are passing out advice from their own perspective and do not know your situation. Often their perspective is a bit skewed from the norm. It's your life and you are the one who will live with the consequences of the actions you take. In many cases, your family will also suffer the consequences or the actions you take.
Think long and hard before you do something that will affect the rest of your life.
is this being overcomplicated.
1. is there a dress code?
Yes - dress according to that - and seek permission for dress equality male-female ... so as to dress as the ladies do ...
No - wear smart ladies clothes and act normal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
Yes, I know that. All I'm saying is that it's our imperfect world at fault, not a "strongly heterosexual male [who] wants to wear womens clothes to work" and it's our imperfect world that deserves the criticism, not some person who harmlessly wishes to express himself.
If someone didn't like broccoli, would you say that it was a "burning question" why not? Obviously no; it's just a matter of taste. And the same should go for self-expression.
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