What are your thoughts on male privilege?

[Ezekiel]

I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon.

You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.

I work with all women, who have seniority over me, and as the managers are also women, believe me, being male is of no advantage. So no, I haven't experienced that at all. You live in a bubble. might be way bigger than mine, but it's still a bubble, for what you see is not the universal experience. And just because MINE is different than most, does not mean that there aren't a lot of other situations where women don't have an advantage, either.

First, I don't live in a bubble. No I do not. I am in a situation where I'm constantly seeking for a job, far from my family, living on the verge of poverty being paid less than 950 euros.

I'm not a White middle class US citizen. Sure Caucasian (a word not synonym for White), but Spanish afterall, and I don't qualify for White and I can tell you I notice it everyday in Germany that I am not White, like for example when they always keep asking me to show my bag after paying whenever I go buy food, and I see that it is ONLY me who is always asked this. I guess its enough explanation...

But theres people in worse situation than me, atleast I can pay for my internet.

Second...

Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.

Its not like I'm saying you, or anyone else here, hadn't had it hard. Its not what I'm saying, its not what anyone else is saying. We are talking about sexism, where women are less respected than men on a comparative scale.

Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers.
But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life, and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.

Patriarchy is still the established order, there is still sexism. Why you deny it?

Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?

Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses.

Let me ask you this question...

Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity), and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?

Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.

In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.

[Candice June Lee]

I think it is a domination thing. Some people are naturally dominate. With that they don't know how to use it. Others are insecure. Those are the loudest, usually don't have a clue what is being discussed. So if "I am louder know one knows I am an idiot" mentality. In that no one else can say anything. So no one sees the stupid in them. Unless you sit like I do in the shadows and watch and listen. We are all guilty of dominating at times. For others its a way of hiding their insecurities.

[Nadine Spirit]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. Do some people at some times seemingly get more privilege than others, sure. Does it mean that everyone from the group that supposedly belong together receive those same privileges universally? No.

As soon as we start generalizing and say things like "men get ...." Then when we see a man the assumption is made that he gets those things simply because he is male, without ever even talking to him. The same thing goes for women. Just because she is female does not mean that she shares the same life experiences with everyone else who society deems to be female.

[Ezekiel]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. Do some people at some times seemingly get more privilege than others, sure. Does it mean that everyone from the group that supposedly belong together receive those same privileges universally? No.

No? So in Saudi Arabia, as a quite extreme but simple example, doesn't one get all the rights a man gets, and over women, that one gets just because one is male?

So you are denying patriarchy status quo too?

[Samantha Clark]

I have great difficulty with this topic. The thing I have difficulty with is that in discussing it people make statements that go "men _______" and "women _________." It removes the individual nature of human beings. [snip]

Just because she is female does not mean that she shares the same life experiences with everyone else who society deems to be female.

This sets the false premise that the disadvantages must be shared by all individuals of the class, else the disadvantage does not exist. Just because some individuals in the class are not disadvantaged does not mean that structural sexism is nonexistent. Similarly, you don't have to prove that everyone is a sexist in order to establish that sexism exists.

The fact of the matter is that, while I try to believe that I am the author of my own success, I am the beneficiary of institutional and social bias which benefit me as a male.

[Felicia Dee]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

[Tina_gm]

We can say all day what male privilege used to be, being able to vote, or the limitless jobs one could have, the better pay etc etc...

Today, that is quickly disappearing. There is some certain male privilege today, I believe that males are still not looked down upon if they have numerous sexual partners, at least not looked down upon the same way women are. Men can still show anger and aggression and it be ok, of course so long as no actual harm comes from it. A woman showing these emotions often gets the title of bitch. I do believe there is a certain amount of extra respect of men in leadership positions. When a male CEO or some other leadership position, he will likely not be questioned as much, or doubted as much.

I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

[Ezekiel]

I was born and raised a male and have never -- NEVER -- been privileged on any level, at anytime. Everything I have, everything I have accomplished or survived, I did so with fury and at great personal expense.

And nobody doubts that. Nobody here ever pointed anything like that for a male life is as easy as having a walk in the park.

Again, this thread is discussing sexism, not anybodys personal story. I don't want to sound like a bitch, but it seems it has to be pointed out every 2-3 responses...

I believe there is certain female privilege as well, but that is another topic.

We could perhaps start a new thread about what we all think about female privilege. Infact, I'm going to start it myself to see what people here thinks is female privilege, because im really, really curious, as I don't really see much privileges for females myself.

[flatlander_48]

You know, the fact that no one commented on this tells me that there is no interest in trying to actually understand what women experience. Sad to say, that speaks volumes...

DeeAnn

I propose a small experiment...

Guys, put these questions to adult women that you know:

1. Does sexism exist? (Use SEXISM specifically and NOT Privilege)
2. If #1 was yes, have you experienced this personally, witnessed a sexist act or both?
3. If #1 was yes, how do you deal with it?
4. If #2 was yes, describe the situation.

Please post your findings here when you have them.

Thanks,

DeeAnn

[Greenie]

I will answer. But as a female. Well., yeah. You all know that by now.

1. Yes.
2. Yes. Daily.
3. I try to call it out when I see it at work. I did correct my boss when he called me "little lady" and told me that he couldn't be honest with most women because they all "cry and get over emotional.
4. What time? The time I was told that the clothing I was wearing was distracting and it was a turtleneck, but the guy can wear a velvet sweatsuit to the office and nothing is said. My boss telling me that my other female coworker was a "silly girl" for asking about ethical treatment in the workplace.

My favorite. I am required to have a college degree for my job. And the guy who cleans toilets makes 4.00 an hour more than me. When asked about the wage disparity, I was told that "historically maintence makes more" However, all this guy does it clean toilets, sweep and mop. While I manage the board of commissioners and our legal procurement contracts?

[gailbridges]

This is a fascinating topic. (I will apologize up front here for not including all the various gendertypes in the following)

Look... I don't think I'm going out on a limb here saying that this site is predominantly populated with accounts owned by CLOSETED (in one way or another) males.
What I don't get is those who even 'QUESTION' the very existence of male privilege. (and, of course there is female privilege, but let's stay on-topic)

But here's my argument.....
"IF" there is no male privilege, then we have equality. Equality in all things, right?
Then why are there closeted Tgirls?
WE (yes, I am closeted) are closeted for fear of being ostracized as being seen as anything less than male. Sure, the wife might also be worth hiding from because we are encroaching on her territory too. But judging from how many DADT-type relationships I see mentioned here in the forum, it's a valid point.

The other part I don't get is.....
Well, the way I see it..... after years of CDing, and reading and discussing and observing how women work the fashion, makeup, deportment aspects of life and how WE can find a way to "PASS".... well, it sure seems like we guys would be much more attuned to the tiny details of the female experience as a whole AND take on more feminine traits beyond how we look. Not the least of which is compassion, caring, listening... and trying to walk (figuratively speaking) in the shoes of another.

I get that there is a strong sexual component for we CDers (et al) involved with this "hobby", but it's such a narrow avenue to only display/consider that aspect of women.
I think if we gendernauts want to get more of the female experience, we must TRY to have empathy for women of every stripe.

(I'd like to know if there are any transmen following this thread and what they have to say about the subject.)
Oh, and I'd like to thank Greenie, and Reine for their strong and clear posts.

[justmetoo]

I think Isha said it very well, and I agree.

Reine, I tired the liberal arts/science "test" from that site. An interesting exercise.
I got
"Your data suggest a slight association of Male with Science and Female with Liberal Arts compared to Female with Science and Male with Liberal Arts."
But I think that's because more males just happen to be in science (and STEM in general), and that's a cultural thing due to the fact that girls and women are not typically encouraged to be in science (and all too often, actively discouraged from it, historically and even in this day). I do not believe there is anything about girls and women vs boys and men and their respective abilities that should make that disparity a foregone conclusion. The same can be said for other groups as well (for example, the low percentage of some races in STEM).

We can argue/discuss privilege until the cows come home, but the fact is there is inequality. And my belief (or liberal bias, if you like) is inequality is not good for anyone, even those who think they are above it.

[PaulaQ]

Question is: what are your thoughts on "male privilege?"
- What is it? Can you define it?
- Does it exist everywhere? Is it a work thing, social thing, or something else entirely?
- Is there a female privilege (say, in the nursing field)?
- How have you experienced it while crossdressing?
- Is it a problem that is solveable? Is it entirely on men to solve, or is it more a sexual difference problem that requires work on both sides? Or, do we even need to solve it?

1. It's the unearned and often unnoticed perks men get that give them advantages over women, and hell yes I've experienced it. It is quite notable when you lose it, as I have during transition. Examples:
- preparation for work or going out takes much longer as a woman.
- women are frequently ignored or talked over in meetings and gatherings
- given a man and a woman together, servers, salesmen, etc. will nearly always defer to the man.
- typically male character traits such as aggression and judgment and competitiveness are valued more highly in business than typical female traits such as emotion, compassion, and cooperation. (Note: all people have these traits to an extent - but some are more commonly associated with men than women.)
- traditionally in the west, women take their husband's last name upon marriage. It's a lot of work to update this everywhere!
- men are never assumed, by default to be potential stay at home dads in the workplace, but it is often assumed that women will be stay at home moms.
- the ability to walk away from the consequences of a pregnancy is an advantage.
- assertive men are seen as strong, and leaders, assertive women as bitches.
- men's ideas tend to be taken more seriously
- women are frequently the primary care givers in a home, even if they work. It's assumed men will just work
- T makes it easier to suppress emotion, and this is seen as a favorable trait
- men are not generally objectified in the same way women are.
- men are much less prone to be victims of physical assaults or rapes
- men have a lot more control over their reproductive health

2. Yes, there is female privilege. It really doesn't come close to being equal.
- women are more free to express emotion
- women have much more leeway in terms of clothes and other expression
- there are fields where women dominate - child care or nursing for example. These aren't typically the most lucrative fields
- attractive women can often manipulate men. That this is needed suggests that this isn't a privilege, nevertheless we can often get guys to do stuff we don't wanna do
- it is typically easier for women to talk their way out of a ticket (I've experienced this myself)
- women can flirt, make eye contact, and otherwise express interest in men without risking direct rejection generally. Guys usually have to ask for a date. (Whether this is actually better depends on your personality and skill with people.)

3. Experienced in transition

4. Yes, it is solvable. It will require changes in men and women, and society. Typically feminine traits need to be valued as highly as typically masculine traits.

[Krististeph]

Really good thoughts- I agree on the aggression aspect as an active form. But as a passive form, men do get deference. I notice it in school when female teachers intentionally give deference to females(viewpoint from me as a student). Hey, I'm all for it, but I do ask for acknowledgement just the same(in male gender, but not because of gender) in class discussion.

Even then, and i've discussed this with the other profs (i'm typically older than most college students) and it is more likely due to my age and aggressive engagement in classes, but being male allows me to pull this off a little easier.

THAT SAID, I've had a few female students- who pick up on the fact that while i do not play favorites- I do encourage females to participate in my classes and discussions as they are in a typically male associated/dominated field, and i support them unequally in doing so. One student in particular- young- 19-21 or so- quite smart and capable, danced through the class easily, just jumped in and grabbed the curriculum by the horns- I like it when ANY student does that- she aced the course and did a little freelance along the way.

Just had a less assertive, but much more experienced student do similar- significant freelancing (altering of the curriculum to meet her needs/experience). Navy tech, extremely mature in mindset (she does field service for medical eye lasers now), very good progressive self instruction... She asked for several things i would normally say no to to most students, but worked with her. As I did another (male) student in a roughly equal (but different) case earlier.

I think men tend to be braver in asking, and I personally will probably support women more because of this.

But the passive tendency to default to a the male exists still. I think GGs underscore this either intentionally or unintentionally, as a group, and are generally okay with it- it's nice to let someone else lead and do the 'hard' work... let us be honest- a somewhat higher percentage (than not) of females would be happy to stay home and raise the family and allow the husband to be the primary breadwinner.

I think this colors the issue- and influences it.

personally- i will take it if offered, but not go out of my way to expect it at the cost of females. I have my own family to support- and i'll do what i need to to take the advantage i can. Whether i'm wearing pants or a skirt.

there will always be inequality, it is the nature of physics, emotion, society. But there can be fairness in that inequality, if both parties are willing to play fair.

From what I have seen, men are getting away with about a 15-20% advantage overall, which is not as much as it used to be, and not as bad as one might imagine. I personally figure i've been on the short end of 50-80% advantages in business (non gender related) and still kept up my part. If females are willing to step up and demand and take what they think is theirs, they can easily beat the male average, IMO. They may be outliers, but get enough of them, and suddenly the bell curve has shifted...

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

Congratulations to all. Following this discussion has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've ever read. Many, many good points and most well thought and presented. Clearly a difficult topic to achieve consensus yet the differences allows a growth of understanding. I wish our culture could be this open and thoughtful on so many issues. I like to believe that with all of the sordid history of male female relationships we are coming closer to achieving the best balance we can. There will be work to do for a few more generations, at least, but the goal of equality seems to be well rooted now. Whatever your passion, pursue it, and don't let others hold you back. Find another way around hurdles if you must.

The point I wish to contribute is we need to stop pitting one group against another to gain constituencies. Black vs white. Male vs female. Age. Nationality. Theology, and host of social issues. I hope the future allows more acceptance for differentiation, whatever the category, so we can focus on moving the bar up for everyone.

[Eryn]

Are you talking about the male privilege where (in my time) you could be drafted and sent to war and return in a box or with body parts missing?

3. Yes, men have gone to war. But women are now fighting to be allowed to join the military in the same capacity as men.

Still, the salient point is that, in the US, males are still required to register for the draft and females are exempt. I've never heard of any feminist organization fighting to rectify this inequality.

While there are successful efforts to allow women to take on combat roles in the military it remains that the women who take on these roles must volunteer to do so. Males can be placed in these roles involuntarily at any time. It is not equality when females may choose the hazards that they wish to face and males may not.

In Iraq, as of the end of 2014, 110 female and 4,368 male male service members were killed. 97.5% of those killed were male.

Obviously, not all male "privilege" is positive.

I'll also point out that people who are transgender are prohibited from serving. This didn't stop a lot of TG males from being drafted and killed since the determination of being TG was subject to the draft board.

[sometimes_miss]

I wrote "I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon"
Then:

You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.

The question was if we'd experienced being treated as second class citizens. The answer was yes. Now it's clear that you're just going to try to keep coming up with more things to complain about. I can do that too. If you want, take it to private messaging. I have all the time in the world.

Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.

Lets stop with the history lessons. It has nothing to do with today. Or do you also want to argue about how the cro-magnon man treated neanderthals as less than equal? Let's stick to the current state of affairs where we actually live, huh? Women have it harder in some ways, easier in others. Whether it 'evens out' is a matter of opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours, but have no right to tell me mine is wrong and i must change my opinion any more than I have to expect you to do the reverse.
Sexism works both ways. You can read about it here and in the other thread as well.

Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers. But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life

Not noticable to who? Maybe you. But then again, when you already have your decision made, you're only going to see what you expect to see, and disregard the rest.

and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.

Which case? Besides, it's an observation that one person makes. So whether you see it that way, doesn't mean someone else can't see it the opposite way.

Patriarchy is still the established order

Yes. However fewer women WANT to fight to be in charge of things. In our current world, you don't just 'get to' be a leader, you have to earn it, and earning it takes a lot of work, aggression, assertiveness, and a willingness to sacrifice many things in order to succeed. Women in a social setting will usually take turns doing things. Men will compete and keep their position until someone takes it from them. Men are simply more competitive in many ways, and are more willing to give up things in order to climb the ladder to success than women are. There are women who are willing to do that, and you do see them as political and business leaders, just not as often, and yes it is because they don't want it as badly because they're less willing to do what's necessary to succeed; the situation is what defines what's necessary to succeed, not the person who wants the position. I often hear women complain that they went to school, they got their degree, then their (law, medicine, accounting, etc..) license, then they want to know why they don't get handed a top job? Because they didn't do what the situation required. That may be working 80 hours a week, kissing the bosses ass on a daily basis, letting him win on the golf course and acting like he really did, or even marrying his ugly nasty daughter (or son, if that's what the boss wants in his next VP). Again, when you want to advance to a position, you have to do whatever is necessary. Women often aren't willing to do that, mostly because they can usually get what they want in life without doing so. Men, however, MUST get to the top to get what they want, or be willing to accept less. A woman can sleep her way to success, riches, and position. A man cannot, so they work harder.
As far as patriarchy and inheriting power and wealth, the Countries that are still ruled by a monarch who hands down his position to a son (or daughter) are slowly disappearing. Why? because of idiots being crowned king, queen, emporer, or idiot despot (yes Kim Jong Un, I'm talking about you) are going out of style because that system doesn't work as reliabley to bring qualified people to rule. I'm not saying the republic system is perfect, but to get elected into office you can't be a complete ass as well as surrounded by them (as much as I didn't like GWB, I do admit that he had some very smart people working with him, Cheney was a friggin genius), while that CAN happen in monarchies, and can be the end of them in one poor generation of fools.

there is still sexism. Why you deny it?

I don't deny it. But it works both ways.

Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?

Because I don't like to whine about it. It's common knowledge. And it is gradually changing, but apparently not as fast as you'd like.

Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses. Let me ask you this question...Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity),

I never wrote that women can wear 'all' they want, at least, not without any ramifications of doing so. No such thing. Now you're just making stuff up to be argumentative.

and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?

Because wearing female clothing commonly results in erroneous assumptions about the male who does it, that he is more likely than not to less reliably behave as our society expects a male to in situations where the safety of others is concerned, whether that be if he's a soldier, defending his female mate, or defending a female in his society that is being attacked; or, less likely to keep doing his job even if he is unhappy doing it. He is considered 'less of a man' by most people. If YOU cannot understand that, perhaps you need to study psychology and sociology a bit more. The fact is, at least in many parts of the civilized world, men and women CAN wear whatever they want, BUT they have to be prepared for the results of their actions. And yes, there are still laws on the books in some places in America (and perhaps elsewhere, but of that I'm not sure) that make wearing any type of disguise such as that which might make you appear to be a member of the opposite sex, a crime. I didn't write the laws. I suppose they were enacted to prevent criminals from robbing someone while appearing as one sex, and then changing to the other in order to not be caught (same with spies).

Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.

Men don't like it because well, lots of them think we're gay, and they want nothing to do with that. Also, it represents several other things to men: 1. as above, the possibility that the crossdresser will not live up to the responsibilities that men have in the society in which they live; provider, soldier, protector. 2. That if he associates with the crossdresser in any way, he will be suspect of being a crossdresser, and 'less of a male', as well, damaging his chances of getting the female mate of his choice 3. He feels he must prove that he is 'more of a man' than the crossdresser because of the assumption that if he does not, some may assume it, also damaging his reputation. 4. He feels that he must now prove over and over that he is not, and will not, ever be a crossdresser or feminine in any way, in order to avoid being seen as a lesser man; which explains why some will attack us for no particular reason other than to prove to everyone that he's 'tougher than the sissy'.
Women might not like it because of [1] above, which potentially can endanger her, her children, or even other females in her society, 2. because of ignorance, she may see the crossdresser as a sexual competitor for a male she wants. 3. she has absolutely no attraction to him. Women don't usually see us as physically dangerous to her directly (we're assumed as 'weak'), but they simply don't have any use for us, suspect us of homosexuality, and as some still consider this a sexual perversion, assume we may be an eventual threat to their children.

In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.

We already know that.

The point I wish to contribute is we need to stop pitting one group against another to gain constituencies. Black vs white. Male vs female. Age. Nationality. Theology, and host of social issues.

There's really no way to prevent it. I can't speak for other countries, but the U.S. public school system leaves out a whole lot of information; it's basic premise was to create a population of reasonable competent workers for the corporations to hire. Beyond that was high school for more technical and scientific matters, and college for further specialization. Today, schools have instead become baby sitters and children don't learn enough basic information in grades 1 through 8 to be employable anywhere. High school as well still spits out people who can't even add and subtract, and often cannot read well enough to comprehend what's in a newspaper or write a letter. So we're a society of folks who are educated to work. The debates you mention happen in social settings, or in online ones such as this one. and I for one enjoy reading other people's opinions. Even at my ripe old age, I still learn things. And I like learning things. I guess it's just something that makes me feel young. Add that to whatever makes me feel pretty, and I'm a happy man....girl....what ever is in my mind at the moment.

[alwayshave]

I believe that there is male privilege. However, we naturally assume that it is all created by men. I am reminded of a story I read several years ago where a group of female graduate students at a university complained to a female professor in another department that there were no female TAs in the department where the female TAs were studying. It seemed the female grad students wished to be TAs as well. The female professor went to the head of the other department and asked why there were no female TAs. The head of the department stated that none of the female grad students had asked to be TAs while the male grad students had. It seems the female grad students were waiting to be asked, while the males went after the job. Is this the male grad student's fault or the female grad student's fault?

[sometimes_miss]

The female professor went to the head of the other department and asked why there were no female TAs. The head of the department stated that none of the female grad students had asked to be TAs while the male grad students had. It seems the female grad students were waiting to be asked, while the males went after the job. Is this the male grad student's fault or the female grad student's fault?

This reflects what I was trying to get across. Men are almost always more aggressive and will go after what they want more often. As they know other males will also, it becomes a 'race' to get the best of everything. It's not that NO women will do that, it's that less of them will.

[Ezekiel]

The question was if we'd experienced being treated as second class citizens. The answer was yes. Now it's clear that you're just going to try to keep coming up with more things to complain about. I can do that too.

If you can relate that well how is it to be a second class citizen, then why don't you agree that sexism damages women more? Frankly, I can't understand that. Sure what you described is bad, and its true aswell that kids are not treated like persons. But the experience should help you see that as woman, it would have been more accute because of the social expectations that limit females very much.

I do not have any grudge against you or anything, don't misunderstand me, no need to private message, and prefer to post here where anybody can enter and discuss.

Lets stop with the history lessons. It has nothing to do with today.

Yes it does, it has everything to do with today. Its good to check history to see how things worked out to arrive to the present point. Its good to remember how bad some people had it in the past, they fought, and now they have it a little better because of the effort.

Let's stick to the current state of affairs where we actually live, huh? Women have it harder in some ways, easier in others

Sure lets stick to it. Women have it harder most of the time, and I'm certainly interested to know what you understand as easier for women.

A few examples of the present situation, just ten of them:

Women are...

1 - Less respected and taken less seriously
2 - Paid less
3 - Expected to be always pretty and beautiful, and they are treated more for their looks than for anything else.
4 - Thought of as weak individuals who always are in need of help (in need of a man?)
5 - Sexually harassed more often, much more often
6 - More likely to be assaulted, robbed and of course raped
7 - Expected to stay at home much more than males when they have kids
8 - Expected to be submissive, although atleast this is changing
9 - More likely to suffer from domestic violence (Not that males don't suffer from this too, but women do on a bigger scale)
10 - Acussed of bitches when they have a very active sexual life (while men can be all the bitches they want and its all good)

This is just a list of ten, theres a lot more.

Yes there is sexism, and for women it is worse and more varied than it is for men. There is sexism against men too, and a few points are pretty bad aswell, but its just not as huge, the list is lesser.

Not noticable to who? Maybe you. But then again, when you already have your decision made, you're only going to see what you expect to see, and disregard the rest.

As I just argumented, female power over male, where they have an advantage, a clear one, its a situation that is not very common. Thats why its not very noticeable in every day life to see that a female wins over a male something just because of gender. They are more likely to get the custody of kids, thats a good example.

But this is one situation against one hundred others that males get over females just because of gender.

Remember though, its patriarchy that wants it this way because it thinks of women as the ones who are expected to take care of children. It depends on how you see it, but to me, its still machism.

Im not going to disregard anything by the way. To me, theres injustice both ways, only that women really do have it worse because as I said, the list is bigger.

And well, concerning the rest of your post, I am going to make my response pretty short. All the reasons you listed about crossdressing are still explained by machism and machism alone.

I don't need to study any more sociology to see that ending machism, opens so many opportunities for the TG community.

[sometimes_miss]

2 - Paid less

As soon as I saw that one, I knew you're just here to complain and argue without anything to back up your statements. Wall Street Journal quoted the U.S. census that college educated women make 101% of what college educated men do. Parity has been reached over 20 years ago. Women who are serious about their careers earn just as much as men. It's the ones who take time off to have kids and/or choose jobs that pay less that skew the results, it's been proven over and over. I'm done here. You can argue with everyone else if you wish.

[ReineD]

Wall Street Journal quoted the U.S. census that college educated women make 101% of what college educated men do. Parity has been reached over 20 years ago.

Where's your source (link please).

Women's percentage of men's salaries, among various demographics
IWPR - 2015 data
http://statusofwomendata.org/app/upl...PTER-FINAL.pdf

1. By age (page 9, 10):
Older women: 72.5%
Millennials (women under 35): 85.7%

2. By education (page 13):
Women with grad degrees: 69.1%
Women with bachelor degrees: 71.4%
Women with High School diplomas: 75%

3. Results by state, with more than 58.6% women in the labor force (page 3):
United States average: 79.2%
High, New York: 87.6%
Low, Louisiana: 66.7%

4. Projected year for closing the gender wage gap (page 4):
By state: from 2038 (23 yrs) to 2159 (144 yrs)

[Nadine Spirit]

I think it is a bit misleading to say "salaries." It is more accurate to describe it as "earnings," as your linked article describes them. Salaries implies this is what women are paid, while earnings state this is what women made. While there is no doubt that women earned less then men, why they earn less is debatable. To imply it is due solely to systemic sexism is misleading.

[sometimes_miss]

Where's your source (link please).

It was in a copy of the Wall Street Journal that I read in the 1990's, I think it was around late 1992 after the census figures came out, the story was on the front page. Feel free to search through them all to find the exact article. Or, download the 1990 U.S. census (because that's where the dept of labor got the information), all oh, probably 20,000 pages of it, and check out the figures. I don't have to provide the exact link any more than every woman who states the old 70 cents on the dollar thing does, but I'm not making this up; They rant, I can rant back. Besides, no one wins an argument like this; they will continue to believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what facts are presented, and logic be damned. Based on the continuation of all those 70% stories, it seems that far too many feminists are conspiracy nuts. When I ask for their figures, all I get is their own personal experiences of their friends complaining about men being paid more; no facts. Ever. Besides, please consider: If equally qualified women really were available for 70 cents on the dollar, why wouldn't every company fire all the men and hire women instead, increasing their profits by an astronomical amount? You know the answer I usually get? 'Because men stick together and prefer to work with other men'. Yeah, like that would overcome the natural greed of the corporation's executives and stockholders; they'd hire baboons if they were equally capable, if they could keep that 30% for themselves. The 70% concept is great for headlines. Nothing else.

[Katey888]

Fascinating as this all is... not sure how this is now relating to crossdressing and/or crossdressers..?

Let's steer clear of the general politics of sexism please and keep it relevant to the impact on our community or our activities.... per the OP...

Ta very much...

Katey
Moderator