I appreciate your response, but stating that I can do "way better" is implying that he's a bad person. He's far from that and let me stress again, we talk. Maybe after talking to me, he'll realize that he wants nothing more than to stay with his wife. Maybe he has no intention of ever cheating.Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I'm not that different from your friend. I am in my fifties, married over thirty years to a mostly unsupportive woman. Only recently, she has slowly come to understand that my femme side is an inextricable part of me and has decided to commit to full acceptance. Before that, we still shared a bed, but I felt completely isolated. It was a lonely time indeed. What got me through that time was the ladies in the store where I bought my dresses, skirts, etc. Firstly, they gave first rate fashion advice, telling me immediately whether the outfit worked on me or not. I, of course, obliged them by trying on everything they showed me and buying a lot of clothes from them. But it was FUN! I always come in wearing a gorgeous outfit and a big, big smile, because for me, it feels like a two hour furlough from prison. We laugh, chat and hug like sisters and I feel normal for that brief time. That's the main thing. Like your friend, I have someone who treats me like a normal, healthy friend, not a freak. I don't know whether your friend wants more from you than that, but I feel pretty sure that the relationship you have now is critical to his emotional well being.
I'm not saying he's a bad person. Just suggesting that someone who is:
1. Local to you
2. Available to you - i.e. not in another relationship
3. Not the type of person who, apparently, sneaks around behind his wife's back
4. Able to meet you in person, let you know them fully and directly and openly
is liable to be a much better person for you. Your guy may be fine, and just in a really unfortunate marriage. Believe me, they happen, but that still doesn't make him right for you.
The guy who played this game with me was a creep, and when I discovered what was really going on, I considered, for a couple of minutes, jumping off the Singleton Ave. bridge here in Dallas. It would've been a really pretty place to die. Fortunately, I calmed down, sought out friends, and came to realize that I'd been victimized.
I have no idea whether or not your guy is like the one who preyed on me. (Believe me, he knew exactly what to say to push my buttons.) My only point is you don't have any idea, really, whether or not he's like that because you haven't met him.
I made all the same arguments you are making. Every one of them. And once I found out the truth, I hated myself for a while.
I just don't want to see you get hurt, hon. Look, I know there are many CDers in miserable DADT relationships that they are unwilling to end for whatever reason. That he hasn't done that should be a giant red flag to you. I'm not trying to be judgmental. I don't know this guy from Adam, and I don't really care if people play around on their spouses - that's their business. But I am saying that he doesn't seem to be acting very ethically here, and since you stand to be the one to be hurt in all of this, you should worry.
If he isn't comfortable talking to his wife about your relationship with him, you probably aren't "just a friend" and this isn't exactly ethical. (Not to excuse his wife's behavior - it may very well be just awful. However, if its so bad, why doesn't he leave?)
He may be a really good person, just in an awful situation. But this almost certainly isn't the right way to handle that, and it still doesn't make it a good idea for you to be involved in it. Your chance for heartache is just really big here, in my view.
BTW, have you considered what would happen if he leaves his wife for you, rushes over to meet you, and you discover, in person, there is just zero chemistry. In fact, you really don't get along that well, and the relatioship isn't going to work well for you - you just don't want it. You could end up feeling awful because 'he left her for you", but you find you just don't want him after all.
There are a ton of ways for this to go wrong, and only a couple of happy endings. Be wary.
Last edited by PaulaQ; 12-31-2014 at 03:22 PM.
Thank you, truly, and that's great about your wife now accepting you now.
Lisa, this is the danger, that he might not be considering your feelings and is instead just having fun. Is he aware of the possibility of growing romantic feelings on your part?
Lisa, he is not a bad person, just a CDer who enjoys sharing this with GGs. Do you think that you can keep it to friendship without having it escalate in your heart? That's the question, that you might end up being hurt.
Reine
I would hesitate to say judgmental. I may come out that way, but I think people have a lot of genuine concern for your situation and don't see it turning out well. Life is complicated and on occasion we do things that add to that complication. But, sometimes we take on things for a good reason and sometimes our logic is skewed. But, it is the sort of thing that each of us has to figure out for ourselves.
All that said, I think it would be instructive to hear what your thoughts are after you have had a chance to sort through and digest the possibilities.
To take this from abstraction to reality, I know of a situation where this happened. The husband of a close friend of my 1st wife had a long distance affair with another woman. Unbeknownst to her, he decided to leave his wife, drive 2 states over and present himself on the doorstep of The Other Woman. I gather she was quite surprised and was specifically NOT looking for a live-in partner. So, he was forced to return home and get his wife to take him back. Ultimately, she did.
Anyway, sometimes hypothetical situations may be discussed but often they can have real basis in fact.
All the best,
DeeAnn
Last edited by flatlander_48; 12-31-2014 at 04:32 PM.
Actually, I think we are both well aware that feelings can grow on both of our ends. This is life though, isn’t it? It’s not static. There’s an ebb and a flow and roads that we should take or shouldn’t take, and paths that we should or shouldn’t cross. There are good and bad decisions and consequences for all of them. We both believe that people are placed in your life for a reason and neither one of us is sure of what that reason is right now. The reason may be something that makes him closer to his wife in the long run – and that would be a great thing for him. I am someone who, if I care for someone, I truly do want them to be happy – even without me. The reason for our friendship may be that he’s teaching me about acceptance of other people. There could be a myriad of reasons why we became friends. He can be just a perverted, old cross-dresser looking to have sex with any woman that will have him. I didn’t think that way, but it seems that most of you do. I believe some of you may help in the perpetuation of stereo-types of CD’ers. He was not seeking a woman online, I asked him questions and he was being kind of enough to answer. Then when we started talking, we kind of have a connection – so to speak – and I’m not sure where it will lead or if it will lead us anywhere at all. We may be friends for the rest of our lives and I hope that is the case. We also may just run out of things to talk about and go our own way, and that is fine too. It’s just very surprising and disappointing to me that many think he’s a dirty old man looking for a little something on the side. It’s very sad because I see a wonderful man, who really just wants a woman to accept him for who he is – even if it’s only via friendship. Could we get hurt? Yes. Should I run from every life even where I could get hurt? I don’t think so. It’s not the way that I want to live.
Agreed. This situation may have presented itself solely as a means to get one or both of you to think about what the situation may or may not do. Or, it could be a test; it could be reinforcement of the current thinking. Who knows? But now since it is sitting in the middle of the road, what is the next step? Through it? Around it? Or just turn around and retreat? A decision, any decision, represents the result of hopefully our best thinking (and yes, I realize that doesn't always happen), but also it should tell us something about ourselves...
Actually, no. Judging by the many posts I have read about this, the desire is to be one of the girls. It's about experiencing female bonding more than just having sex. Yes, it is sexual for some CDers (mostly younger ones) and they love bringing it in the bedroom, but I can't tell you how many posts I've read from members who want a GG friend to talk clothes, makeup, etc with. A fun thing to do between married couples is to share mani-pedis, go shopping for clothes, take pictures of outfits, etc, not just have a romp in bed. A lot of CDs also want the GGs to teach them how to be feminine (give them tips on clothing, makeup, etc), although if your friend is 72 and has been doing this for awhile, this may no longer be necessary.
If you stick around you'll read many posts from members who say they much prefer hanging out with the women at parties more than the men because they find the topics that women discuss more interesting, although I'm not quite sure what the difference might be. When my SO and I get together with friends everyone just ends up talking together about common interests. So I think it's more about wanting to bond with a GG in the same way they believe that GGs bond together.
Reine
I don't believe his desire is to be "one of the girls". I think it's to have a normal relationship and have acceptance with "one of the girls".
Yes, about what you wrote here. I call some of that my personal spiritualism, especially the bolded/highlighted part above. It has been so true to me all through my life and it took starting all this TG/CD stuff 8 years ago to be able to put words around it. I also second what sometimes_miss wrote. From reading what you wrote here, I actually think that you have a much better handle on your situation than many that have posted here. You are a rare breed here as many have said, a GG who likes and accepts a CD. For that, you are also special to many of us and we only want the best for you, thus all the admonitions and the reversion to the "old cross-dresser stereotypes" in some posts. Just as there is a broad spectrum of people with opinions, prejudices, biases and everything else good and bad out there in the real world, we have about that same mix here too. We want the freedom to be who we are, but then require others here to be how we think they should be. That is equal rights? I respect you for sticking around and maturely discussing your issues. None of us is perfect. I wish you the best and please do try to stay around here long enough to learn more, contribute more and to help us learn from your experiences and point of view.
Of course. You know him better than I do. I was just describing something that is common to many members in this forum.
Reine
Thanks for your thoughtful response. He used your words exactly, he said meeting me is a "one in a million" opportunity. I guess this explains his generosity with me. I am glad that you wrote because I'm just trying to understand his mindset and where he's coming from and your response helped.
Oh Lisa, we don't want to stone you. We don't want you or him to fall into an emotional affair. It would be a betrayal to his wife to have him become emotionally attached to another woman, no matter how innocent your intentions.
I don't think anyone is saying that for sure about him, and even if we were, that has nothing to do whatsoever with him being a CD and everything to do with him being male. Some men - really a surprising number of them, will lie for a relationship, especially one that could become sexual. Even if that isn't his intent at all, and it really may not be, there is a good chance his wife would be unhappy with his emotional intimacy with you, and might view that as more threatening than just a sexual encounter.
But let's go back to your first post:
So you obviously feel guilty about this - says so right there. Yet you ask what people think - hoping to rationalize this because he's in an unhappy marriage with a spouse who doesn't accept him. Let's review the red flags here shall we:
1. You feel guilty about this - hon, go with your gut. Red flag.
2. Oh hell, you are gonna ignore your gut feeling - stupid old instincts and conscience, what does it know? Red flag.
3. You've never met him, but it's really obvious you have feelings for him - see mention of love above in your OP. Love him? You don't even know him. Red flag.
4. He tells you he's miserable and misunderstood - but he doesn't leave. Hey, this could very well be true, its common around here. Unfortunately just about every philanderer on earth makes this same claim. Again, it'd be one thing if you knew him, and could say "yeah, wow, what a horrible marriage," but you don't even really know that. Red flag
5. Even if, as is likely, he really is just a very lonely man in an awful relationship, that doesn't make it right for him to develop an intimate friendship with a woman about whom he is not talking about with his wife. (Hello - vows and stuff?) Red flag.
6. When you ask a group of disinterested strangers who have some reason to be biased in his favor, and they tell you "be careful," you get kind of defensive about it - you don't seem to be looking for advice as much as validation for what you've already decided to do. Big red flag.
So let's just break this down - you are going into this blind, you've never met him, and against your own better judgment. You are already dreaming about love, and you are looking for a rarionalization for something you are going to do regardless.
Can you honestly tell me, "Yeah Paula, this is an awesome idea! No WAY anything could go wrong! I mean who lies about themselves or their situation on the internet?!?"
Hon, I agree that life is about taking risks. But this one seems really exceptionally risky, because you don't know what all the risks are, and you are ignoring your own gut feelings. I have never done both of those things and not regretted it.
Just be really careful. And I wish you luck and hope it all works out ok.
Last edited by PaulaQ; 12-31-2014 at 05:46 PM.
Lisa, you seem to have made up your mind that you are happy to let things take their course. Your perogative. We are simply sharing our experiences without emotional attachment on the facts as you present them.
My personal experience shared at #29 did not involve CDing ... simply a marriage in which we had grown apart and I was vulnerable to female friendship. But there are more similarities with your and his situation. Neither of us was looking for a relationship, and there was a vast distance between us and initially it was just fun chatting by phone and internet. At that stage I didn't CD.
I don't understand how this or many other replies translate into lack of empathy from CDers. You asked us for thoughts on a relationship with a married man 20 years your senior who you have not met in person. That's what you are getting. Sorry that it doesn't support your romantic notions ... another similarity, I didn't listen to advice either.
So you obviously feel guilty about this - says so right there. Yet you ask what people think - hoping to rationalize this because he's in an unhappy marriage with a spouse who doesn't accept him. Let's review the red flags here shall we:
1. You feel guilty about this - hon, go with your gut. Red flag. (I also feel guilty when I drive by a church because I hardly ever attend mass. ).
2. Oh hell, you are gonna ignore your gut feeling - stupid old instincts and conscience, what does it know? Red flag. (I never said I was going to ignore my gut feeling and also my gut is telling me I met a really spectacular man).
3. You've never met him, but it's really obvious you have feelings for him - see mention of love above in your OP. Love him? You don't even know him. Red flag. (I don’t love him, but I am aware of how feelings can grow).
4. He tells you he's miserable and misunderstood - but he doesn't leave. Hey, this could very well be true, its common around here. Unfortunately just about every philanderer on earth makes this same claim. Again, it'd be one thing if you knew him, and could say "yeah, wow, what a horrible marriage," but you don't even really know that. Red flag (He NEVER said he was miserable and misunderstood and I don’t think I ever said he was either).
5. Even if, as is likely, he really is just a very lonely man in an awful relationship, that doesn't make it right for him to develop an intimate friendship with a woman about whom he is not talking about with his wife. (Hello - vows and stuff?) Red flag. (that’s subjective and if she wants DADT, then maybe she’s got it. I know that sounds cruel, but DADT isn't that healthy for either husband or wife ).
6. When you ask a group of disinterested strangers who have some reason to be biased in his favor, and they tell you "be careful," you get kind of defensive about it - you don't seem to be looking for advice as much as validation for what you've already decided to do. Big red flag. (I was looking for more of an understanding of what his mindset is and not to be told he’s basically a creep for just talking to me. ).
So let's just break this down - you are going into this blind, you've never met him, and against your own better judgment. You are already dreaming about love, and you are looking for a rarionalization for something you are going to do regardless. (I’m not dreaming about love at all. I am dreaming of having someone special in my life in one form or another and that form may very well be a very good friend. r).
Can you honestly tell me, "Yeah Paula, this is an awesome idea! No WAY anything could go wrong! I mean who lies about themselves or their situation on the internet?!?" (I think you’re a jaded individual and you’re views are skewed by your past experiences which have made you very bitter. ).
Hon, I agree that life is about taking risks. But this one seems really exceptionally risky, because you don't know what all the risks are, and you are ignoring your own gut feelings. (like I said my gut feeling isn’t leading me away from him. I feel badly because he is married, but he’s a big boy and can make his own big boy decisions).
Last edited by Mimi; 12-31-2014 at 07:15 PM. Reason: "Leaving" posts not allowed.
@Lisa - I'm very sorry if I offended you. I really do hope things turn out ok for you. Just for the record, I'm not a CD, I am a woman, and I'm not interested in dating a GG. Despite the rather awful outcome of the tale of an internet relationship with a man that I told you about, I still like men, and am dating a wonderful man who I met first in real life, and knew for some months before we ever went out. I don't think I'm bitter about it at all.
I do wish you the best of luck and hope everything works out for you both.
Lisa a lot of us have seen this type of thing happen many times over on this site and other sites.
You asked for opinions did you not? They may not be what you wanted to hear and that is very apparent.
You may have a bond with each other.
It is a bond I would sever now.
In the long run you would both have a happier new year.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
I find it interesting that you find so many respondents to your thread/question as judgmental or lacking empathy for him. I responded to go ahead and do what you want. Both of you are adults and capable of making your own decisions and owning the consequences. I said what I would do and not do, i.e., not get involved. If you ask for an opinion and the answer is not to your liking, I really do not know what to say. If a respondent states that he would not get involved and suggests breaking it off because of numerous reasons, then of course the respondent is judgmental.
I will continue to stress you really do not know who this man really is. I'm glad you researched him. However, you really never know a person until you live with the person for some period of time. Sometimes the signs appear during courtship, even though everyone tends to be on their best behavior. Sometimes it's right after marriage.
As to whether what you're doing is cheating, ask whether or not his wife knows and approves. I agree with those who suggest it is cheating when there is emotional support involved. You may not agree. He may not agree. I think the answer for you and him is obvious.
Me? I have coffee about once a month with a woman who is young enough to be my daughter. Our friendship was developed through a mutual interest in collecting. This woman and her children have been to our home. My wife has talked to her for hours. My wife has met some of her daughters. My wife knows what her husband does, and, her husband knows who I am.
Heck, in the past my wife has even gone out with my approval with an old boyfriend from high school. I know him. He knows me. I just did not want to be totally bored with heir mutual interest. Above all, I know my wife and my wife knows me.
I noticed several respondents have suggested taking the cross dressing out of the equation. What would the answer be then? What if his wife has absolutely zero interest in fishing or golfing? Why wouldn't he tell his wife he found an attractive successful adoring younger woman who just loves fishing too! I chuckle, years ago my wife told me it was OK to go fishing, but, don't expect her to clean it.
Lisa, would you be willing to be friends with his wife as well? Help her understand her husband? If not, then there is an issue, especially if he doesn't want to tell his wife about you. Cheating is not just physical intimacy--it is emotional intimacy as well, especially if one spouse does not even tell the other that there is the friendship.
Also, how have you verified the actual truth of your friend's marriage? Do you absolutely know for certain that he and his wife sleep in different rooms?
I think we are actually more judgmental of the man than we are of you--he is the one who is telling you what you want to hear--that you are providing support to him that his wife won't, etc. It's one of the oldest stories in the book--the man talks about his wife who doesn't understand him, makes her out to be terrible, and in reality she's just another human being who may well love her husband and have no idea this is going on.
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Lisa, You said that people come into our lives for a reason, or reasons. Yes. True. Sometimes, it is for good, and sometimes, it is for not so good reasons. Always use caution, especially in these days we live in, where there is so much crime, deception, and dysfunction. I would let him know you are only an acquaintance, maybe friend, and that is all, as long as he is married. I have met people in my life who i thought were so wonderful, only, to be hurt badly, ripped off, my heart left in the gutter. Maybe you can just be a friend, which is totally ok. When it gets emotionally, needing, and dependency, better back off. i can understand, as I go for several days or more, without any meaningful conversation, with another human! Other than cashier talk. Thanks for shopping here, have a nice day stuff. Some men, especially single Cders go many days with no conversations, and have incredible isolation, and lonliness.
Last edited by Alice Torn; 12-31-2014 at 08:11 PM.
Hey again, Lisa. You seem to be getting a bit of fame here as this post is quite active. I have to admit I am reading with great interest how things progress, and I love to see you reveal more of your story. So, thank you for providing a very interesting read and I hope that in some small way we are helping you vet your feelings.
My original thoughts have not changed. Please do be careful. I remember when one of my daughters got involved with a married man. It was both frustrating and painful for my wife and I to advise without offending, and to hold back on how strongly we felt about her decisions. I vividly remember her making a lot of the same assertions that you are sharing. It was a very bumpy two year journey and it ended very, very badly. Our daughter was emotionally devastated for a very long time afterward and that hurt us very much. We second guessed ourselves on should we have said or done more. In the end no one can say for certain. We've all moved on, although a bit wiser.
I share all that not to say your journey will end the same. Indeed, I hope it does not. I share it more to hopefully enlighten you on how folks like me take the position we do. We've seen others get hurt, and since you came seeking insight you'll get from us what life has cast our way and what experience has taught us. Good luck!
Lisa, I may have a different perspective on this. For a number of reasons:
Maybe because I had no desire to dress until late in my life. Before then, I thot pretty much like "regular" men.
I AM 71 years old.
I was married for 7 years before our "great" partnership simply melted away like an ice cube in July. Unlike many other married folks, neither of us were willing to become "room mates".
I don't see that your relationship has much to do with his dressing. Unless your conversations r dominated by his questions about makeup, heels, and girdles? I'll bet they aren't! As much as it is about a lonely man in a very tired marriage and a lonely middle aged woman, intrigued getting to know an interesting man u MAY have completely ignored if u had met him at the mall first. If I'm off base? It won't be much further than many others posting here!
As an older man, I have been very intrigued be the interest an attention of younger women. (Some were over 20 years my junior). And, as I was divorced, I was able to do a lot more than talk with them. Unfortunately, the ones I was interested in all seemed interested in marriage and I'm not! Your gentleman may not only be flattered and excited by your attention, your distance makes u non threatening to him and his situation. U aren't asking for anything and u aren't going to make waves in his boring but comfortable and routine life. Lastly, he doesn't have to worry about "performing". Which he mite if u were close enuff to have an affair!
My advice to u? Ignore everything u read here unless it strikes u as being on point to your situation. I'm betting u have the experience and smarts to do the rite thing.
Last edited by docrobbysherry; 12-31-2014 at 11:34 PM.
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
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