Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Shaedow]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.

Zooey, I appreciate your well thought out & defined response. Thank you.

[Suzanne F]

Ok I was waiting for this response. I expect everyone of my cross dresser friends to stand up to this Shadeow comment. After everything I have faced I will not be told I am not a real woman. The stares, the lost friends and family, the coming out at work, the risk of losing my cherished wife, the countless hours of pain of hair removal, the sheer terror of traveling in the south, the pain of physical procedures you can't even contemplate and then someone has the nerve to say that. I have laid it all on the line to claim my womanhood and I will be damn if someone will say this. We can disagree about lots of things here but my womanhood is non negotiable because I have paid for it in ways you will never know!
Suzanne

[Zooey]

Please explain why you cannot tolerate this one. Is it because you feel I am appropriating your position? Speaking for you?

While I disagree, why is that any less tolerable than some of the men here imposing outdated and repressive notions of womanhood on you? While I make a claim to womanhood that I feel is justified (you may disagree), why is that any less tolerable than self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces?

[arbon]

My question to you is, do YOU as a MAN get to define the borders of a woman's space?
You may feel, & identify, as a woman, but you are not, nor will you ever be, a REAL WOMAN.

Shaedow,
A REAL GG

This is the curse of being a transitioned woman, we are invalidated by the great majority people from both sex's. We are not real. People wonder why we can be so bitchy.

It is why so many choose stealth, hiding their past.

[Stephanie47]

I think a lot of this discussion is nothing short of baiting. I have yet to find anyone being able to definitely state what makes any man or woman tick. If I am not 100% man or 100% woman, then what am I? A hybrid? There are societal customs and norms that are dictated by the majority. Much of that is codified into law. That is something that may change, and, to some extent has changed.

You state some of us are not men nor women. So what am I?

Why are there trans women?
Why are there trans men?
Why are there gay men who are exclusive with other men?
Why are there lesbians who are exclusive with other women?
Why are there men and women who "swing" either way?

Society throws up all sorts of answers. It's in the genes! It's personal choice! It happened in the womb! It happened in the nurturing process of raising a child? It was the result of mental or physical abuse! Take your pick!

None of us truly know. And, many people will adhere to a cause because it most closely justifies what they do.

If you are going to adhere to the premise that many of us are "just men who like to wear women's clothing, stuff a bra, put on makeup, wear a wig or grow out hair," then believe it. Your opinion has no more value than any other opinion. Frankly, when I don a dress and heels, the whole nine yards (male term?) I do not feel like a man in a dress. And, since I was not born as a genetic woman I cannot say I feel like a genetic woman.

I'm just happy the State of Washington has codified the gender issues to include gender identity and gender expression, whatever that may be.

[Nigella]

It is why so many choose stealth, hiding their past.

Or worse,

[Zooey]

Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!

I used both, and I didn't feel terribly safe in either one.

In the period before beginning transition, I used the men's room because I hadn't really accepted who I was.
In the period before living full-time as a woman, but while on HRT, I used the men's room at work and the women's room elsewhere, usually with my cis women friends. I felt uneasy in both.

Since my legal changes got done and I went full-time, I use the women's room exclusively, and feel no unease about it.

[JamieG]

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

Have you heard of incidents of strongly-male-identified crossdressers trying to enter these other spaces? Aren't you really just talking about bathrooms and fitting rooms? Heck, how many strongly-male-identified crossdressers do we know who have entered those spaces? I suspect the number is pretty small.

I would argue that most of the crossdressers who go out in public do have at least a blurred gender identity. And I don't think it's the putting on the dress that causes them to identify as women (as you suggest); when they identify as women, they put on a dress. By the way, I identify as bigendered, so thanks for doubting the authenticity of such identities in a previous post. I don't go out en femme very often, and when I do, I usually try to avoid using any public restroom. On the rare occasion where I've used the women's room, I sat down to pee, flushed, washed my hands and got out. If I thought I was going to make anyone uncomfortable, I would have held it.

By the way, I think you want to be careful talking about male privilege here. Yes, it is definitely thing, and yes I have benefited from it. But so too have many transwomen. In fact, isn't this the argument that some womyn's festivals use to exclude transwomen? I.e., the transwoman wasn't raised as a woman, so she doesn't belong? I think this is hogwash, but do you see how your argument is dangerously close to this? Prior to her transition, every transwoman was perceived by others as a man, and reaped the same benefits that cismen do. Maybe she was encouraged to study math and engineering, taught to speak up for herself, had her competitive spirit nurtured, could go for a jog late at night, etc. Now of course, after transition she no longer experiences privilege, but she still reaps some benefits from the privilege she once had. If you focus on male privilege as the thing that makes "men" different from "women", are we saying that transwomen who transition at a younger age are more "woman" than other transwomen? Is the transwoman who transitioned 20 years ago more "woman" than the one who started her journey yesterday?

By the way, I've never cared for male chauvinist BS, and I am an active ally of women in my workplace. All of my CD friends are sensitive caring people, and don't go around disrespecting women either. So when I hear you paint us all with a broad brush, it gets my dander up.

[Shaedow]

Zooey: Because personally (i.e. in my perspective only) I struggle to accept that men can assume the identity of & speak as if they represent all womanhood, cutting down cd's & others who have not fully transitioned in the process. As for "self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces" I guess I am just not a flaming feminist. I live my life not paying particular attention to how others are living their lives unless it is blatantly put in my face. Please consider, as I was told many years ago, equal does not mean fair. And vice versa.

[IamWren]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.

Zooey, I appreciate your well thought out & defined response. Thank you.

I've been following this thread earnestly. It's extremely interesting and quite frankly it is one of those that is helping me learn more about myself. The logic, the reasoning, the examples and analogy are great but what Shaedow said...

that's not nice Shaedow. Not nice at all.
Zooey's response was one that was filled with much more Grace than I think could have mustered and I applaud her for that.

There has been so much said in response to the original post that I'm not sure I can intelligently add much value. Just wanted to be one of those CDers who would stand up to that comment. However it seems as though they have made nice.

Please carry on so that I might learn more.
Hugs,
Sayyidah

[Thictoria]

Thanks for answering. You must understand why a cder would feel safer in the ladies then surely? Most have said they would ask to use fitting room and had been granted access without prejudice.

[Zooey]

By the way, I identify as bigendered, so thanks for doubting the authenticity of such identities in a previous post.

Let me be clear, I don't understand those identities. At all. I can't see them. That does not mean they're not real. I try to acknowledge and respect it as best I can. Like I said, if a person is willing to at least identify as "not a man", that's enough to be going on with for me at this point.

By the way, I think you want to be careful talking about male privilege here. Yes, it is definitely thing, and yes I have benefited from it. But so too have many transwomen.

I have benefited from it. I was never told not to study STEM, and I was rewarded in my career because of how people perceived me. IMO, it's incredibly important to acknowledge the cases where we have benefited from it, and many trans women do themselves and other women a disservice by not doing so. My goal is for ALL girls and women to experience the same benefits that I did growing up, and I work hard in my industry to help make that happen.

By the way, I've never cared for male chauvinist BS, and I am an active ally of women in my workplace. All of my CD friends are sensitive caring people, and don't go around disrespecting women either. So when I hear you paint us all with a broad brush, it gets my dander up.

Right - "Not all men". I KNOW "not all men" are like that, but when "basically no men" publicly stand up to the ones that are, including on this forum, then it's still a problem.

Zooey: Because personally (i.e. in my perspective only) I struggle to accept that men can assume the identity of & speak as if they represent all womanhood, cutting down cd's & others who have not fully transitioned in the process. As for "self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces" I guess I am just not a flaming feminist. I live my life not paying particular attention to how others are living their lives unless it is blatantly put in my face. Please consider, as I was told many years ago, equal does not mean fair. And vice versa.

I don't speak for all women, much less all trans women. A lot of trans women disagree with me on a lot of things. I speak for me, based on my life experiences and learnings thus far, and this is a philosophical issue that I am passionate about.

I also will gladly own up to being a flaming feminist.

[Rachael Leigh]

I in no way feel entitled to any women's space as a man I completely respect them and their personal privacy.
If I'm out and I'm presenting as a woman yes I prefer to use the women's room and have and yes I've also used the women's dressing area and usually I ask before I do that.
I'm one who also would protect any women or child I I felt they were in danger and feel even if I'm dressed they should be protected.
I do not feel I should be allowed in women's space if I'm dressed as one but do feel I'm not any harm if I do I hate how the media has blown this thing up and made us out to be some kind of danger.

[AmandaM]

I'm not sure that I understand having an identity that is contingent on what you're wearing.

Simple. Amanda is 50% of my identity. She wants to be the dominant identity at times. She doesn't like combat boots.

[Zooey]

Amanda - if "she" is 50% of your identity, and just happens to be the dominant aspect at times then...

1. Why do you talk about it in the 3rd person?
2. Doesn't that mean you're not really a man?

By your description then presumably, even when presenting as a "man", you're still 50% "woman" right? So... are you a "man"? If I take your statements at face value, then I would say no.

[Helen_Highwater]

A woman is a woman because they are a woman. Trans women are women because they are women. Woman is our identity.

There are many who would challenge the second part of your proposition. As Rachel points out surgery and HRT bring about physical changes but chromosomes remain the same. We've all heard the argument that a Transwoman is a man after plastic surgery. Not a point of view you'll find much support for here I'm pleased to add.

I must admit to being uncomfortable with your idea that cd's seeking access to female toilets do so from a position of male privilege. What about F2T CD'ers using male toilets. Do they claim some sort of privilege? I don't seek access to female toilets as a right or privilege, I seek access as a person, an individual who in presenting as a female wants to do what we all need to do and that's, well you know what.

Go to France and this discussion is unnecessary. Toilets are often dual access. One door separate facilities, urinals and cubicles. What we're debating here is just a mindset.

I agree with Jenifer that it is a wholly different situation if we talk about open area facilities such as sports changing area's. But that's to do with recognising the unease that females would undoubtedly feel if male genitalia were on display. This would be true if the person were pre-op Trans even if they wholly believed themselves to be female.

[Jenniferathome]

Zooey, you said "Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?"
...

Shaedow, given your polarizing view of this situation, and I in no way mean to judge your position but out of curiosity what rest room do you believe a cross dresser should use?

[Dana44]

Okay enough said. One thing is clear, transsexuals are under the transgender umbrella and that states on the wiki forum that any person who struggles with their identity is a transgender from gender fluid to a third sex and transsexuals are all under that umbrella. So ladies, we are all in the same dang boat we need to work together and put this effort into a focused realization.

[Zooey]

Helen, I've stated in a number of other threads that I believe bathrooms in particular should be transitioning to gender neutral facilities. I don't think they need to be segregated by gender in the way that our countries currently do it.

Saying that bathrooms should be gender neutral spaces, however, is very different from saying that men in women's clothing should be entitled to access women's spaces. Hence, this discussion. I don't actually care that much about bathrooms themselves, or at least not enough to keep me from voting for laws like the one we have in California. That's why I want to talk about women's spaces, and gendered spaces in general, which extend well beyond just bathrooms and other similar facilities.

[AmandaM]

By your description then presumably, even when presenting as a "man", you're still 50% "woman" right? So... are you a "man"? If I take your statements at face value, then I would say no.

I guess you could make that case. When I am in man-mode, I rarely feel completely male. When I am in female-mode, don't anyone dare call me a man. I've always identified as somewhere between CD and TS. Maybe Amanda is dominant. But in today's world, and my lack of female bone structure, etc., I won't seriously contemplate transition and have to deal with living in non-stealth mode. I'll stay on Prozac, thank you. So, I guess the answer to your question is, I am not a typical man-in-a-dress.

[Lorileah]

Forget about whether I think you should be in women's spaces or not.

If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?

OK I am halfway through the thread. My head already hurts for the BS that people are throwing. I will submit and it was asked before and not answered How do you KNOW that the person entering the space is a man is a dress? And how would you propose to define this on a split second notion while this person is entering the space? Name tags? ID cards?

I understand where Zooey is coming from. Yes it gets confusing when you read a thread and ONE person out of 50 says "I am a man, I'll always BE a man and I like dresses" so that leaves 49 who dress (on this site only as I know damn well almost every other site out there is a hook-up MfM or a fetish site but they are beyond our control) who, when they dress and present as a woman feel they ARE a woman. Now we can argue all day (and it seems this must be the day) how one fells like anything. We beat more horse here than the last furlong of the Kentucky Derby. Zooey is prodding an ox that is rare. the majority of members here identify, even if for only 5 minutes, as women. That is what it is. They are not strutting into women's spaces claiming rights. In fact the majority of MEN who are not on this site who definitely identify as manly males would never think of entering a woman's space. They are the ones who live "male privilege". I don't see many (if any) members claiming that privilege here. I see transgender people who only want to live and not be hassled in public over something that really has no bearing on the spin of the world except in a very few people's minds. Albeit we need to be aware of those radicals we also need to have self preservation.

I tire, very quickly, of the confrontational attitude that seems to be prevailing here recently. If you don't like the sand box, go play in one you do like. If you feel somehow disenfranchised stay away from those threads. Enough of this "You get I don't get" Bullshit! It makes coming on here a burden. As I said before I see enough "man" in me even after surgery, that I can understand the lay public's confusion. I can't blame them. But we don't need to throw stones at each other. We have enough problems without someone dividing the community even further with picayune details.

NO ONE has claimed it is a RIGHT here as a male to enter any women's space. The right is to use any facilities in peace and quiet without fear. I see this whole thread as oring an ox to make more fear especially in a community. No one is impinging on anyone else's life by being a CD or TS or GQ or DQ until ONE person decides they somehow are special.

I don't see this thread lasting because it has already become a TS vs CD fight and the staff doesn't need to be sweeping up all that.

[ReineD]

In the following post I use words like "should" but I want to emphasize this is an opinion and not a pronouncement. I also speak to MtFs here and I have not constructed all my sentences to also designate FtMs, but obviously everything I say applies in the reverse to FtMs too.

None of us are islands unto ourselves, no matter how we identify. We live among others and we have a social contract to do so harmoniously in order to prevent chaos. This is evident in all our social structures, for example if I’m going in the wrong direction on the highway, I’ll wait until an interchange or a u-turn space to turn around rather than cross the median willy-nilly whenever I feel like it. If I pull off on the shoulder, I'll use my signals rather than surprise the people behind me. If I’m in a hurry, I’ll stop at a red light even if there are few cars on the road. If I need something at the store, I’ll pay for it rather than take it, even if the item is only a few dollars and taking it would not have an impact on the store or its customers. If I do not have money in my pocket, I will come back to the store rather than just take the item. Likewise, if I live in a society that has thus far designated bathrooms/changing facilities/saunas/etc for specific genders and it is the expectation of the people who use these facilities that same-sex-identified people should use these facilities, I will respect that to the best of my ability (and yes, I have used the men's facilities at arenas when the women's line was too long to make it back to the game on time and too long for my bladder, but the few men who walked into the urinals understood and were rather amused. They were not offended nor did they feel threatened in any way).

Back to the topic, this does not mean that we cannot effect change. In the last generation our society has become aware there are indeed people who are born in the wrong body and who are transitioning to live full-time as the gender opposite their birth-sex. Authorities do need to bring this awareness to everyone including those who might take awhile to catch up, by enacting laws that allow for everyone's need to use gendered facilities according to their gender identity.

But, recognizing that innate gender does not permanently fluctuate, until self-identified gender is clear to someone, then non-female-identifying folks should not feel entitled to use areas that, in our society in this time and space, is designated for females. This means that even TSs who are still hanging on to some portion of their male identity, until such time as they peel back all the layers, should either use the men's rooms like they always have or use gender neutral spaces if they do not feel safe using men’s rooms. If they do not yet fully identify as females (if they do not yet know beyond a shadow of doubt they are TS) then it is likely they have not yet begun altering the appearance of their physical characteristics with HRT, nor have they yet changed their gender markers and legal gender from male to female, and they still live a significant part of their lives as male, which means they can be selective as to where and when to dress. But, once they do realize they are TS and they do actively begin the road to transition (the physical and legal changes other than just the clothing and makeup which eventually necessitates going full time), then they should use women’s spaces and laws do need to be put in place to help the rest of society realize and eventually accept this. Once there is overall recognition that there are indeed people born in the wrong bodies who have or are transitioning and who are indeed entitled to use the facilities consistent with their gender identity, there will be harmony once again (hopefully sooner than later among some pockets of our society like the southern US states).

And again recognizing that innate gender does not fluctuate, non-binary-identifying folks always feel non-binary, which means that fundamentally they do not feel either always-fully-male or always-fully-female. They know they are bigender, or fluid, or any other word for non-binary gender (if their identity fluctuates according to their presentation) even if they always feel the same non-binary-identity internally. Or if they always feel female internally but choose to not take steps to physically and legally transition, then they can expect that others will not see them as females. Or if they are genderqueer, they know they do not wish to present an appearance that correlates to either fully-male or fully-female (this is the definition of genderqueer). These groups of people should not expect to use spaces currently designated for people who are unchangingly-always-fully-female identified and who if they weren't born that way, are taking steps to transition which includes living full time in addition to physical and legal changes.

This argument speaks to a matter of conscience more than policing, as I understand is the intention of Zooey's thread. I’ve no idea how to regulate any of this, other than to make all bathrooms available to everyone.

But, until such time as this happens, there are plenty of neutral places to use for people who do not fully-all-the-time identify as female and who are not on the road to full-time transition.

So in a nutshell, it's rather a question of the proverbial putting your money where your mouth is. If you are female, then transition, which means active transition more than "yes, I'm female and maybe I'll transition one day but for now I choose to live part of my life as a male". And yes, there are people who for medical reasons cannot get on HRT nor do they have the money for facial feminization surgery, but my comments are not addressed to such people who I'm sure do everything they can to be recognized as women including living full time. I am rather speaking to people who make the conscious choice to not transition, which I gather is the group of people that Zooey's thread targets.

For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

I had a quick look and found the Gender Center Org in Australia. There's a page on gender discrimination where they specify who counts as transgender under Australian anti-discrimination law. They are quite specific that the law covers those who are transitioning (have lived as a member of the preferred gender or are in the process of changing over to the preferred gender) or who are intersex. I don't think this covers people who identify as male when dressed male and as female when dressed female?

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resou...our-rights.htm

[Jenniferathome]

First, if that little sign is based on presentation, then should butch women and women in pants be going in there? The original intent of the pictogram was "women". I obviously believe that, through further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women", but they are still the defining gate for those spaces.

Come on Zooey, the original intent was GENETIC women. You conveniently dodged that. By the way, "butch" women and women in pants look like women to me, so yes, they should go in there. The pictogram is a generic, not an absolute. That's quite obvious. Women today use the facility in shorts, skirts, pants, .... Now, if through, "further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women" then expansion can include vanilla cross dressers. You are on a slippery slope.

...I disagree that outward presentation is the next best thing, because we actually do have a way of legally recognizing gender identity, given certain reasonable criteria are met.....

I know you have advocated this "license to pee" idea, but that is clearly NOT the next best alternative. It's AN alternative and one that will never work. Who has the right to challenge at the door? How do I know your ID is real? It's absurd to think you can create a "pass" to pee.

[Shaedow]

Shaedow, ... what rest room do you believe a cross dresser should use?

Jennifer, I believe that men should use men's rooms. HOWEVER I am cognizant of & sensitive to the reality that this is not always safe. My cd SO uses the women's room when out dressed. Would that he didn't but there you have it.

[Zooey]

Shaedow, in that statement, you and I are wholly in agreement (our disagreement on the definition of woman not withstanding).

Come on Zooey, the original intent was GENETIC women. You conveniently dodged that.

I didn't dodge anything, and I disagree. From where I sit, the intent was always "women". Previously, "women" were assumed to be "natal females", but the intent was "women". New information has arisen, and if we accept trans women as "women" (which obviously I do, along with the medical community), then they are women. "Genetic women" also excludes a lot of cis gender women, as do statements like "women who can get pregnant", "women with breasts", "women without facial hair", etc.

Now, if through, "further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women" then expansion can include vanilla cross dressers. You are on a slippery slope.

Sure, it could absolutely expand to include CDs, but I can guarantee you that the definition of "woman" will not likely include CDs if they continue to assert that they are "men" and are not "women". Either we respect self-identification or we don't. There are no two ways around it. If you declare your self identity to be "man", then IMO you are opting out of consideration as "woman".