What are the LEGAL ramifications of being "caught" or outed"?

[Marleena]

The US is a patchwork of regulations and one's rights vary depending upon where you work.

Regardless of one's actual transgender protections, an employer can find other ways to be rid of someone that they dislike.

This is true. An employer can find other ways of letting an employee go.

Now we have had a few threads lately where CDers don't want to be labelled transgender or be in any way associated with the LGBT. I have tried to point out to you without shoving your faces in it that you may need them some day and their representation is actually a good thing.

What happens if you are outed at work and it causes a disruption? You could lose your job. What happens if your landlord gets complaints from other tenants they have a guy in the building that likes to wear dresses. He could kick your rear out.

The LGBT are helping you in those important areas. Just something to think about.

[TxKimberly]

You have to love this forum! No matter what topic you ask about, you KNOW that there is at least one expert out there!

As I understand it, Texas is one of those "At will" states - they don't need a reason or an excuse. If they dont want you, they get rid of you, and good luck trying to fight it.

Like others have said, Cross dressing is NOT illegal, but that's entirely beside the point. If your employer is sufficiently irritated by something about you, they will no doubt find a way to get rid of you if they want to.

[Colleen1989]

I like your enthusiasm, but not everyone has that level of confidence or is viewed with such tolerance. Most people have too much to lose in their non-crossdressing life to fully expose their deeper desires. I wish the world were more in line with your way of thinking.

[SherriePall]

Has everyone forgotten the WinnDixie incident? A truckdriver got fired for crossdressing on his own time. He kept it a secret, but somehow spilled the beans when he made a complaint about fellow workers who were giving him the business for being gay which he wasn't (but some of his CDingisms must have shown through).
Help me out somebody. It was only a couple, two, three years ago.

[BRANDYJ]

I have to tell ya, as a Cd myself, I feel I am very accepting and tolerant of other CD's, TS's, gays and other alternate lifestyle choices. With that said, as an ex business owner of a small company in the retail business, If an employee of mine came to work crossdressed, he would not be working for me any longer. Reality is that most of society is not ready to deal with crossdressing. To some it would make them very uncomfortable being waited on by a CD. No doubt it would cause a disruption and loss of business if I would allow it. I would not crossdress and operate my own business for the very same reasons, therefore an employee would not work for me crossdressed. What he did on his own time is none of by business.
With that said, I am also a strong advocate for "at will" work states. I am very anti union for some personal reasons that go back to when my dad was alive, and what a union did to his non-union shop. I am so glad that here in Florida, a company does not have to let unions partition it's employees. And you do not have to join a union to work for any company even if they have a union. Point is, when you work for someone, you have a responsibility to conform to the dress code and other conditions your employer sets forth. Don't like it, quit and find some place else to work. No one owes you a job.

[Barbara Jo]

Fact is, if an employer wants to fire you for any reason, they wiil .

All they have to do is make up a reason why they fired you like saying you threatened the boss, etc.
It wiil be your word against his/hers and you can not do a thing about it particulaly in a "riight to work state which is more accuratly called "right to fire state".

Any employer can fire you for any legally proteted reason as long as they do not say that is why they fired you . Bottom line, if your boss likes you, they wiil make alowances and be tollerant of you. If they do niot like you, you wiil be history sonner or later .

[StarrOfDelite]

Employment law, in and of itself, is not complicated at all. The law is what it is, the application is relatively simple, and there is a mountain of previously established case law in any given jurisdiction. Employment law complaints involving issues of first impression are very far and few in between, so there is very little need to reinvent the wheel.

Obviously, the terminated employee has the burden of proof. The difficulty in prevailing in an employment discrimination complaint is proving that discrimination occured. A sophisticated employer will not give a reason for termination in an at-will jurisdiction, because no reason is necessary. In so doing, it makes it that much more difficult to prove.

If, however, an employer is stupid enough to fire an employee for being green, for example, and puts the reason in writing, that's an easy case. But in today's legal climate, employers have become much slicker than that.

In the end, the employer is going to do what the employer is going to do, whether it is for one reason or another. Or for no reason at all . . . .

Beg to differ. As I tried to explain, the statutes themselves are relatively straightforward, although there is enough legal language in them to confuse most college graduates who don't own a legal dictionary. However, the law is what judges say it is in each individual case, and since each individual case depends on relatively complex facts involving performance evaluations, testimony about incidents evincing discriminatory intent from the complainant, the supervisor, fellow employees, and other documentary and testimonial evidence such as complaints from customers or suppliers, it can get very, very complicated in individual cases. Also, as noted, transgenderism is not specifically statutorily protected in many states, including some large industrial employment states like Ohio, where so far as I know, the question of whether the state law covers transgenderism has not been decided one way or the other. I am unaware whether Oiler v. Winn Dixie has ever been overruled, for example, do you have any input on that?

[erickka]

Nowadays there are so many tiny little loopholes employers can use against you, I would err on the side of caution, especially if you work for some of the big corporations. They may have anti discrimination rules on their books, but the also have powerful attorneys that can use those loopholes against you. On the other hand, what you do when not on their clock is none of their business if it is not illegal. The last time I checked a fella wearing a dress and high heels was perfectly legal in the U.S.

[Sherry Lynn]

In these days since 9/11 the authorities have passed or started enforcing laws banning the wearing of a disguise. I personally know of a cd that was arrested for this. I have also heard of Moslem women being hassled for wearing a veil. It may be legal to cd, but if a cop wants to hassle you, he will find a legal reason.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Has everyone forgotten the WinnDixie incident?

Of course I do, Peter Oiler incident, 10 years ago....who is a member here (openly admitted it) IIRC. The incident took place in Louisiana...and as we all know, The south tends to be more "right to fire" and have fewer protections for GLBT folk than say states like Illinois are.

Veronica

[JenniferR771]

A friend, ebuddy, wanted to dress at work every day. Personnel said it was OK, but they day before she started her new look, she was fired. Poor customer relations, reason. Stay tuned.

[Jason+]

Peter Oiler decided to end his fight. Initially he won his case but Winn Dixie appealed and it was overturned. According the the article below he decided it wasn't worth the fight he would likely lose. As a final thank you from WD they sued him to recover their legal costs.

The second article is worth reading as well. Peter did find new employment with a company that obviously knows he is a cross dresser.

http://www.genderadvocates.org/News/...s%20fight.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transg...s/message/1965

[DeeInGeorgia]

To ShariM, you seem to forget that the excuse you suggest fir the employer was used as a justification to not employ people of color, people with disabilities, gays, women in the recent past or even now. That customers are offended is because of their own bigotry.

[Rogina B]

My only thought is "IF you are really good at what you do"....then any employer will most likely grant you the freedom of expression.You have to dress appropriately for the job under any circumstances..Although I work for myself,I am interested in knowing[or imagining]if a qualified technical person could do technical work in some of the companies I buy from. If you have a thick skin,and are sharper than your average customer,I think you will survive the cut. Just my opinion.

[PretzelGirl]

Is Lori the only respondent who is actually out?

Sorry, not keeping up real well lately. First I will say everyone's situation is different and geographical areas are different. Since I live in a liberal state <cough>, I don't worry about it. My company at both the division and company level have gender identity statements in their EO policy, for what it is worth. We have at least two TS ladies that I know of and one transitioned on the job (not sure about the other as it would have been before my time).

So I am not sweating it. I am not openly outing myself at work, that doesn't accomplish anything. But I have run into coworkers when out. Did they pay attention enough to know it was me? Who knows? Two appear to give me the look at work but no one is saying. So we shall see. It hasn't affected our ability to be pleasant to each other and get work done. But I am friendly with everyone, have a great reputation, and work hard. That is what counts in the end to me.

If an employee of mine came to work crossdressed, he would not be working for me any longer.

Clarification Brandy. I understand your need to run your business your way, but would you at least extend a warning that said "I can't allow that here"?

[Veronica27]

To ShariM, you seem to forget that the excuse you suggest fir the employer was used as a justification to not employ people of color, people with disabilities, gays, women in the recent past or even now. That customers are offended is because of their own bigotry.

An employer is in business to earn a living, and in so doing enables his employees to earn their living. This involves putting the customer first, regardless of their personal opinions and beliefs. Before a customer's desires can be ignored, the impact on the business has to be weighed carefully. The examples you list are not out of the ordinary, and I cannot think of any employer losing business in this day and age because he hired any of them. Crossdressing on the job is not yet anywhere near being a normal situation.

Secondly, a customer does not necessarily have to be offended in order to feel uncomfortable in a given situation. Having a crossdresser unexpectedly handle his or her transaction could be a bit unnerving because it is anything but a normal everyday experience for most people. Bigotry is a pretty strong word to apply to ordinary people who suddenly have something completely out of the ordinary thrust at them. We want people to be sensitive to our needs, but I don't think we can expect that unless we are willing to be sensitive to their feelings as well.

Veronica

[carrkool]

Well let me add my two cents from a person stand point. I was working for decker truck lines who is out of fort dodge iw. My terminal was the new one in missoula mn. I had a perfect work history with them never late nothing wrong. I found in their own handbook they cover gender id. so i contacted HR and spoke with them. I was told i could dress in femine any time any place.IE shipper, yard consignee. Than 2 weeks later i get a load heading to Oh coming out of wa. I load and start running. I get a message to swap loads at the yard that another driver is out of hours. Now this is nothing new with decker swapping out loads. so i get to the yard i was in mens attire that day as i needed to wash clothes. while waiting for the other "driver" they say they have a work order needs done on my truck to pull in the shop while i am there. Now i had asked to have my cat looked at because of a problem i had been having. So i pull in. wait. than a guy comes to the truck and ask me to come in to look at my logs. i walk in and we go into the mechaincs office where he says ok we are all here. The fire me. claiming i lied on my app. they claimed i had a criminal record i did not list. Now to start i do not have a record. I did get a fine for DC in pa in jan. but it is not on my record. so they throw me out of my truck with my wife and tell me they will contact me when i can get my belongings back. I get home and request my dac and my background record. turns out nothing on either about this charge that has been handled. clean background clean dac till than.

Bottom line is a right to work state or not, a protected right or not. if a company wants you gone your gone. i had also seen them fire a driver they did not like for putting the wrong start date for a former employer and this was 3 months after he started and by worng date i mean. example he put 8-9-10 and it was 8-10-10.said he lied on his app. so be carefull dot your I's and cross your T's before moving on. I got another job not planning on telling them but i still dress everyday. with the weather getting cold it will be easier because i will wear womens jeans top make up and nails done up with a coat to cover some and if asked about the make up my wife was bored inless i feel its safe. Now on a good note i went in a truck stop a while back fully dressed minus my wig and the girl working loved my look and told me about her guy friend. she called him up and he came out after she got of work and we all sat outside the J and bs and gave tips to each other.

[carrkool]

on another note there was another case where a lady who was in trans applied for a job i think it was atf. she explained everything and applied as her new self. than out of the blue she was told do to cuts the possiontion was no longer open to anyone. she got to looking alittle later and found another person less qualified had been hired instead. she filled an eeoe complaint and won. the courts ruled that not hiring her due to her trans was a form of sex discrimination. i want to say this was in a high court and never appealed.

[Amanda_P]

On a differant note.

Quite understandable that a Doctor, Lawyer or Indian chief might be terminated, local News/sports anchor, University president etc. Someone that is constantly under public scrutiny or is paid to interact with the public

There is a town in Oregan that elected a crossdressing mayor. He was quite open about it and walked the streets wearing a dress.

[catriona36]

against the law here to fire anyone for being cd. out of the work place. the only thing that could get you fired outside of work is facebook. there is a company that scans fb and reports back to clients about what the employees say on fb. then they fire them. there was a case here in the army where the army paid for the surgery of a mtf tg person. a friend of mine had his own company, he couldnt sak the guy working for him. he was all ways stuffing up, late , rude etc. was allways something different. its so hard to sack someone here even if they are uselessssssss.

[linda allen]

I'm glad this has been straightened out.

According to the posts here, you can be fired for crossdressing or you cannot be fired for crossdressing. I don't think anybody changed anybody else's mind.

My opinion - it depends on the job. There's no hard and fast rule. In most cases, if your behavior (and that includes how you dress) is causing a disruption or loss of business, and you don't correct that behavior, you can be terminated.

When thinking about this issue, it helps to think of how you would act if you were the boss or business owner. You hire people to do a job and make a profit for your company. If this isn't happpening, you need to let them go. You shouldn't be forced to hire or retain someone who is scaring customers away.

[BRANDYJ]

in answer ti Sue's question:

Clarification Brandy. I understand your need to run your business your way, but would you at least extend a warning that said "I can't allow that here"?

Yes, I would extend a warning and then maybe ask them to come over and dress at my house, just never in my place of business.

An employer is in business to earn a living, and in so doing enables his employees to earn their living. This involves putting the customer first, regardless of their personal opinions and beliefs. Before a customer's desires can be ignored, the impact on the business has to be weighed carefully. The examples you list are not out of the ordinary, and I cannot think of any employer losing business in this day and age because he hired any of them. Crossdressing on the job is not yet anywhere near being a normal situation.

Secondly, a customer does not necessarily have to be offended in order to feel uncomfortable in a given situation. Having a crossdresser unexpectedly handle his or her transaction could be a bit unnerving because it is anything but a normal everyday experience for most people. Bigotry is a pretty strong word to apply to ordinary people who suddenly have something completely out of the ordinary thrust at them. We want people to be sensitive to our needs, but I don't think we can expect that unless we are willing to be sensitive to their feelings as well.

Veronica

Veronica, very well said. That is exactly how I feel. To many CD's are selfish and think that if anyone does not like them being dressed around them is their problem and not theirs. To me that is very insensitive. I care about other's feelings and comfort level around me.

[PetiteDuality]

in answer ti Sue's question:

Yes, I would extend a warning and then maybe ask them to come over and dress at my house, just never in my place of business.

Then you could be sued for sexual harassment :-)

Litigation in US has gotten too far...

[LeaP]

... Bigotry is a pretty strong word to apply to ordinary people who suddenly have something completely out of the ordinary thrust at them. We want people to be sensitive to our needs, but I don't think we can expect that unless we are willing to be sensitive to their feelings as well.

I think bigotry is exactly the right word. You can toss in ignorance and a few other choice terms, too.

People who are merely being themselves aren't "thrusting" themselves on people any more than gay people are "forcing their lifestyle" on people. Having rights also requires no sensitivity on the part of others, else rights never have teeth.

I'm dual-minded on the employer question. I think true family businesses (meaning small businesses who employ ONLY immediate family members) should fall into the arena of personal association rights. Businesses who employ members of the public should not be permitted to discriminate - period. I regard business owners who discriminate as personally and primarily responsible for perpetuating the culture of discrimination in business. Passing this off on customers is cowardly, even if the concern sometimes has some basis in reality. After all, one (hopefully) doesn't START discriminating if a customer objects to, say, the race of an employee.

[BRANDYJ]

Then you could be sued for sexual harassment :-)

Litigation in US has gotten too far...

I think you are wrong. A business owner has the right to set a dress code for it's employees. A crossdresser does not have the right tocome to work dressed fem. There is nothing in the way of sexual harrassment for an employee to demand propper attire for work. to say it's sexual harrassment is a huge stretch.
So if you are correct, I guess the Hooter's waitresses can wear blue jeans and a sweat shirt to work and cut their hair as short as a butch cut ( pun intended)