I agree 100%.Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
Sounds like one of the elitist TS's from the my husband betty forum. Some real pieces of work over there.
I agree 100%.
Sounds like one of the elitist TS's from the my husband betty forum. Some real pieces of work over there.
AMEN Sister!!!
Hmm, I must disagree with the view that a TS and a TG are seperate People. So one chose to undergo a particular surgical procedure. IMO, anyone who takes a surgical procedure as license to bash a community of those who, apart from having surgery, are the same as themselves is a hypocrite.
A person's genetailia, current or at birth, is nobody else's business. (Save an SO, or a doctor) And I don't think a TG should be separated from a TS any more than a TS should be separated from the mainstream.
Note that my argument doesn't necessarily apply to those who merely crossdress, but are full on to be identified as the gender they present themselves as.
Yeah, I don't think that person quoted can speak for anyone but herself, and her enormous attitude problem.
And so we go, on with our lives...
We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?
quite the contrary Charlie, we are just not ready for one person to dictate what we should or should not feel and how we should think. There are dozens of cable channels with people with plastic hair and an agenda who espouse an ideology. Many are successful because people are sheep. The people who have commented here are not. But a broad range show that presented all aspects of TGism may actually be a good draw
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Why is it elitism? I don't want anyone else speaking for me, would you like me speaking for you? The word "transgender" is an invented load of crap because whether you like it or not, a post-op transsexual is a whole lot different than a weekend crossdresser...and before you start throwing shit at me, I said different, not better.
And for the record, I don't even want other post-ops speaking for me, I'm more than capable of speaking for myself.I could not agree with Karen more....well stated and right on the money....Living day to day both during and after transition is an entirely different experience....and our issues ARE different.....ALL of us need to fight for our rights....and though we do share some issues and problems....there are also some that ARE unique to TS's. Again, not better....DIFFERENT. And that is not elitist.
Ever The Opportunist
__________________________________________
Life Is My Biatch
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people...and that's why I don't keep PEOPLE in My house." :SirTrey:
Well, about all I can add to this discussion is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which is apparantly based on their own personal experiences (Who knows. This TS may have brought about these negative interactions by her own confrontational attitude. Just because one now looks like a female, doesn't mean they always act like a lady). Whether or not others agree is what forums like this are for, to state those differences...whether politely or not. But, it is a healthy debate, and I, for one, enjoy hearing both sides of the coin. My opinion? Well, just because I'm NOT going to transition does NOT mean my concerns are any less, as Kimberly has stated. OK, there's my 2 cents worth!
Acknowledging that transsexuality is different than crossdressing is not elitism, we are simply different. I don't want a crossdresser speaking for me because they haven't a clue what being a transsexual is, just as I don't fully understand crossdressers.
The person quoted in the original piece may be a bit over-vehement in her words, but I agree with it in spirit.
“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.”
― Marilyn Monroe
I certainly would not want someone possessed of such a venomous attitude to speak about me for sure.
It may interest those who agree with her that, as Kimberley so eloquently explained, there are those of us whose heart may be that of a full op TS HOWEVER for numerous reason we cannot follow that path to its conclusion.
I also do not appreciate being denigrated by someone who does NOT know my heart but makes assumptions about me based on ZERO knwledge of MY situation.
Remember the old Biblical adage about splinters in someone else's eye and ignoring the beam in your own.
Christine, no one is denegrating anyone....and nobody is saying that you don't have the heart of a post op TS....but you don't face the same LIFE problems as one....That's not a put down, and I don't know why you are taking it as one....It is just a fact....For example....If you are not transitioned, do you face the same employment issues that a post op transsexual does when looking for work? No, you show up in drab and no one knows what is in your heart....This is all we are trying to say....Why does everyone have to be so touchy about things? Geez. Does everything have to be a personal attack on someone ALL the time?
Ever The Opportunist
__________________________________________
Life Is My Biatch
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people...and that's why I don't keep PEOPLE in My house." :SirTrey:
I find it interesting that some wish to only speak for themselves. A lone voice in the wilderness so to speak. Yet they wish their opinions be heard. The corollary to this would be that we would not care what your opinion is since you don't seem to care what we think. It does not make for a great dialogue. Honestly no one can "feel" what you feel. So on a technical basis we would all be islands. But we need to draw from shared experiences or learn from others experiences. To isolate or withdraw when help is offered is illogical.
I agree that we as a community need to get our message out more. We have sequestered ourselves so long on the premise of "you cannot know what I feel" that we have made ourselves less approachable to the outside world. This kind of thinking is not helpful to either yourself or the community in general.
How would the person who stated that she thought that only Post-op TS's had anything that she wanted to know and found that no one really wanted to share anything with her at all? She is the one who started the isolation, I hope she enjoys her lonely life afterward with only "her" people. Her bitterness can only grow. How can she expect anyone to accept her and know her if she blocks all attempts to learn?
As I stated earlier this would be a very short television event. It would be "Hi I'm ----- a post op transsexual and you can't possibly understand what I am going to say." Remotes all over the world would switch to Cops reruns so fast. The three other post-ops who stayed would eventually disagree with something and they too would be gone. My way or the highway leaves you with your thumb in the breeze. No I don't understand some people here but I am willing to listen and I will learn or I hope they will listen and learn also. The men in the Transmen forum have taught me so much in the last few months. I hope I am less ignorant now about how they feel and how they want their lives to be. I find that the TS boards are a lot less willing to talk to "us". Ask any CD and the majority will tell you that they have considered that they were TS. Now we have this person who tells us that because we have decided , at this time, not to transition we can't possibly understand. Hey we aren't all that stupid no matter how silly we act at times.
So that's what I think and as of right now if you don't wish to communicate and carry on a conversation where we BOTH might learn, I won't listen and you can scream at the breeze. I agree with Tamara we don't need that kind of closed mindedness here, we get that daily in the "real" world.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
My problem is that I don't know exactly what little pigeon hole I am supposed to be in. There are times when I think I am "just" a guy in a dress. Other times I wish I could have had the opportunity to transision. There are times when I detest my male genetalia. And there are times that I wished I could have felt a child grow inside me. I guess if the world was perfect, I would have been born as a female and I would never have had to deal with any of these issues. I would have gotten married, had a home in the suberbs, and had 2.3 children. I resent someone having a holier than thou attitude and saying that I can't be granted access to their exclusive discussions. Like it or not we are in the same boat even though I may not look like you.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
It seems somewhat ironic (odd) that a TS wants to have a TV program devoted to TS only to explain to the general public how they feel as TS individuals not being fully acclimated into mainstream society because they are different. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Let's distill it down: "I am different. I am a transsexual. No one who is not a full post op transsexual is capable of understanding me. I am special. Accept me as a woman and respect my womanhood without malice, question, derision, curiosity, false compassion etc. I want to blend into society and be accepted as a full woman. But remember always, I am a transsexual and different from you. That is why I started this program."
Last edited by Christinedreamer; 08-11-2009 at 06:57 PM.
They would start the program so that they could educate people about how different we actually are NOT when it actually comes down to it....To dispel misconceptions so that we actually CAN acclamate and be treated just like everyone else...THAT would be the point of a show like this. Not to say we are different or special....Just to say, leave us alone, we are just like you, we just had a slightly different start in life.
Ever The Opportunist
__________________________________________
Life Is My Biatch
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people...and that's why I don't keep PEOPLE in My house." :SirTrey:
First, I am not a part of the transgender community.
Sorry, you are.
I am a member of the TS-Specific and HBS/IS community
Yes, you are.
, and do not want any transgender nor other non-TS speaking for me.
I never said I was speaking for you, I am here as an ally, much like if I were a straight ally.
We are capable of speaking for ourselves. True-TSs - mainstream persons with a birth defect - are denied the opportunity and right to speak for ourselves, and TGs and LGBTs arrogantly presume the right to speak for us.
I know you are capable of speaking for yourselves and you do. Really, we don't let you speak? When did this happen?
Someone who isn't transitioning completely with surgery and seeking to assimilate into and conform to mainstream culture has NO clue about nor the right to speak for those who do.
Yes, like the doctors and lawyers that are trying to help you. They have no clue and should shut up right now. Maybe with this kind of attitude you'll get your wish.
We are not one family, our goals and needs are nowhere close, and we TSs would appreciate it if the TGs and LGBTs stayed out of our business, quit patronizing us, quit condescending to us, and quit trying to "help" (interfere with) us.
Can you imagine if Marting Luther King took this kind of attitude? How far do you think the civil rights movement would have gone? You have no idea what it's like to be a black man in the U.S. so just shut up and quit trying to help us. Yea, that's going to work...
Have you ever thought that a TG might have a better clue than a cisgendered person does about your plight? If you have a problem with what I'm saying, then why don't you educate me? If you can't educate me, how do you think you're going to get your point across to the rest of the world? It's a lonely path that you have chosen and you're making it harder on yourself when you do not enlist the help of others.
Everybody's normal until you get to know them. - Tracy Schapes
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.
- Jef Mallett
Blog: Tracy's Happy Place
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Could we be forgetting how deverse our group is. There is more than one shade of grey. The neet thing here is the MANY points of view. I have lost count of how many molds would be needed to lable each mind set, personality, and need of our group. I have learned to admire many paths and personalities.
You summed up the things I was going to say.
To say being TS is different is a fact. To say TS's have absolutely nothing in common with non-TS transgender people is arrogant and ignorant.
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Too much cart before the horse action going on.
Sure, it would be nice to educate people about the hows and whys and differences between crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals, transvestites, etc... but I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue.
The issue is that gender is not binary. There's more than just the stereotypical male and the stereotypical female, much more. Getting people to understand that is crucial, anything else is gravy if you ask me.
One last thing: Educational TV sucks most of the time. Those hideous discovery channel "I Changed My Gender" shows they play side by side with shows about siamese twins and people with massive tumors all over their heads do more harm than good.
Best bet: Incorporate characters of different genders into mainstream TV. See Dirty Filthy Money, Isis on Top Model, etc. Get people comfortable with the fact that trans etc does not equal freak.
That's what I wanted to say but Joni Mari already said it. People don't really go into all those fine points, and most people will always think our behavior is odd. I think it's better to just enjoy what you can and not inject so much drama and importance into things.
The original post moans about other people speaking for her and then she tries to speak for others...hmmm.
Meanwhile, we all know that the spectrum of issues we all face is so broad that no one person can claim to know or understand them all. None of us can speak for all of us! Most of us have the common sense to express our personal views and then to shut up!
Oh, and I'm sure that each one of us has a different set of issues that are totally critical in our lives related to the presentation of our femininity. No one has the right to say our personal issues are not important, and no one has the right to say that they understand all of our personal issues. It's nicely symmetrical!
Lastly, the general public hasn't got a clue about the discussion we are having. I've been with otherwise rational people who, when they saw a guy clearly in drag, absolutely boiled over! I was totally shocked! Normally tolerant and open-minded people just went right over the edge about those "faggots!" I calmly replied that they were clearly performers (they were) and I wondered where they were going. That ended the discussion (they were a bit embarrassed) but their initial response was just incredible, and, I fear, a window to their real thoughts. If they are typical, I'm surprised any of us survive a trip to the grocery store! I'm afraid that we have a long row to hoe if we are to finally get the message of tolerance and civility across to the general public, along with the message that we are like everyone else, just gender gifted
tina
I think that there are so many different flavors of TV, TG, TS that they are quite different. There's a huge difference between people who are mainly fixated on articles of clothing, eg, panties, and those who want to integrate as women in society. I can see why a TS trying to just get on with life as an ordinary woman would have a problem when someone into the fetish aspect controls or influences how they are percieved.
On the other hand, I've known several TG/TV friends over a span of 10 or more years, and they have moved over to being TS. I distinctly remember one now post-op friend saying "I'd never get SRS!" They had no problem identifying with the TG/TV community for many years, and were fixated on mini-skirts just like the many TV's one sees in the clubs. But some of them now look down their noses at people who are now where they were years ago.
In a couple of cases (for example, my best friend for many years), they have simply said, "I'm a true woman, and you are just a TG, I will never see you or speak to you again". I've heard of several other such cases.
I also have several passable and successful post-op friends and acquaintances who have no problem associating with us mere TG types.
I'm not TS (merely TG, meaning that I want to integrate and blend as a woman, but w/out surgery). I'd feel uncomfortable with someone on the fetishistic side or gender-blend side of the community speaking for me.
-- Diane
"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
-- Benjamin Franklin (while wearing a wig and stockings)
I've been studying the transgender community for the last four years for a writing project. I have YET to meet a non-transgender person who has a clue what the difference between a CD, a drag queen, a transsexual, or a female impersonator is, and after I explain they don't understand why anyone would care about the differences.
In other words, the ignorance is off the charts.
My view is that it will take as many people from all these different groups PLUS all the non-transgender people possible to make any headway at all.
As long as the help is heartfelt and positive, I would think anyone within shouting distance of any of the transgender subgroups would welcome a baby step forward in educating the public.
The TG and TS communities will forever be considered a fringe group (and even a scary weirdo fringe group) until a great deal of help comes from the non TG and TS population. The laws crafted and passed to benefit and protect all of you happen in State and Federal government, and last I looked there weren't too many transgender people included on those roll calls. They are also the same bunch who rescind those laws unless the momentum in education (leading to tolerance and even support) steadily increases in the future. Just look how our gay brothers and sisters are losing many of the rights they fought so hard for (Prop 8 in CA for example).
The work to be done is enormous, and it won't happen unless everyone is willing to help both themselves and anyone else that needs the same kind of help, no matter what the finer details may be.
As for me, being a non-transgender person that has bothered to learn about the subject and in turn tries to pass that knowledge (and a positive viewpoint) to others has been a fascinating journey and a PRIVILEGE.
Last edited by susandrea; 08-12-2009 at 09:48 PM.
....we are all made of stardust
One of my best friends is the executive director of an AIDS support agency. She has been TS all her life but she was always afraid of the reaction and possible threat to her job even though "drag" in some aspect is well known in the community she serves. We met at an MCC church where we found an intsant kinship of common desires. I along with my GF actively encouraged her to allow her true self to be expressed as the woman she is within.
She swallowed hard, took the plunge and announced her intent to transition. NOT ONE person at church, her organization, their benefactors etc had anything but enthusiastic encouragement for her.
She is well on her way now to SRS and now that she lives as a pre-op TS and has for three years while she saves up and runs her very successful organization, she is happier than she has ever been.
To sum up, this non op TG (moi) and a straight woman and several LGBT folks at church actively participated in the repairative therapy of a wonderful and sweet TS and acted as spokespersons for her on more than one occasion.
Should we have just stayed quiet and let her assume her world would crash if anyone knew?
As an analogy, I am not a ER doctor however I know what to do when someone is bleeding.
We’re all birds of similar feather
If hard times ahead we are to weather
A little compassion people, we’re all in this together
This is one verse from a poem I posted on this site after I saw all the infighting,
That this niche didn’t fit in, didn’t like, didn’t understand, didn’t believe in, that niche.
It may be naive of me to think this way, but has it’s been stated in other posts, a united front can achieve more than a singular “knee jerk” reactionary or soap box preacher.
Notice I said “similar” not “same”, I know we're all different (thank god, it be pretty boring if we weren’t) and that we all have different needs/wants/feelings, but we do have some similarities.
Not that it should make any difference but I am TS, and I have friends from all walks of life, and I don’t mind anyone of them speaking on my behalf, but as far has the person mentioned in the original post is concerned I would not want a person so internally focused speaking on my, or anyone else’s behalf .
Angel
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